Divine Relics - Stessier has the clap - Day 7

Semaj · Post by **Semaj** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:13 am

Its not called remuside for nothing?

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:00 am

Zurai wrote:I very much liked the hidden powers aspect of the game and would sign up for a sequel right now if there was one in the offing. Fun game, even though I knew it was doomed when I realized I was the swing vote

The result would have been the same had I been alive rather than you...although it would have happened 2 pages ago.

Thanks Austin, it was a lot of fun!

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:10 pm

Semaj wrote:Its not called remuside for nothing?

If you are going to get all snarky on me then you have to sign up for the next game.

Semaj · Post by **Semaj** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:11 pm

Already did sally, prepare to be shocked and amazed how someone can post 15 times in a 2 hour span and then disappear for 2-3 days

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:37 pm

So.
Would anyone like to discuss the whole 'quoting PMs' thing that came up in this game?

I feel it would be best to just get everyone on the same page with this and clear it up for good. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers nor defend my actions - I'd rather we all just look at some of these examples and decide if PM's should be kept totally private - or if they maybe are fair to share, etc.

I did a little research into why I was under the perception that people had always been able to share quotes from PM's when trying to prove guilt/innocence in these games. I didn't go all that far back, but I did find a couple of examples.

Every game is different and these example are all of different natures really, but they all do quote PM's in an attempt to support the poster's argument, etc. I am not saying these are examples of breaches of etiquette at all, just sharing the results of my search for quoting of PMs.

From this game:
Here is Grund using triggercut's own words shared in the PMagainst him.

I also remember in Lars' game:
stessier was contacted by our Medium.
The message that stessier made and was shared with everyone, and it exposed the actual text from the PM between tru1cy and stesseir.

Another example, same game as above:
Here Chaosraven quotes from the private messages he and Stessier were having.
Again, Chaosraven shares quotes from the emails him and stessier were sharing
...and again, Chaos is building his case against tru1cy using quotes from his private contact with stessier.

I think I can get behind either argument... that PM's between players are game fodder and they can be shared - so one had better a) Watch what they say and/or b) Watch what they claim someone said...
OR
that PM's are just that - private and should NEVER be shared by anyone... be it game moderator, masons, mentalists, or haxxors.

What do you all think about this? I guess, just in seeing the examples that I saw, I don't think it is automatically 'unfair' to share PM's.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:50 pm

I'm firmly of the belief that PM's can be paraphrased to anyone's heart's content....but that's the extent.

Allowing them to be freely quoted creates a potential problem: spoofed PM's. There's nothing to stop people from creating a spoofed PM (heck, I thought about it, but couldn't come up with a useful context for it against Grundbegriff) and posting *that*. That creates a problem where a less-tech savvy poster is working at a disadvantage, and creates a metagame that goes far outside the scope of what I think most of us like to do in these games--which is play verbal and logic games of induction and deduction.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:13 pm

triggercut wrote:That creates a problem where a less-tech savvy poster is working at a disadvantage,

Who the hell are you referring to here?

Also, I agree with triggercut. Paraphrase it. I don't think Unagi was trying to do anything wrong but asking for direct quotes from PMs or secret forums just doesn't feel like it respects the spirit of the game.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:23 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:
triggercut wrote:That creates a problem where a less-tech savvy poster is working at a disadvantage,
Who the hell are you referring to here?

Anyone. Heck, when I was considering it, one of the main drawbacks to doing it was going to be the time-eating chore of having to check and re-check ubb code to try to make it look authentic.

Not every song is about you, Mick.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:46 pm

From: triggercut
To: Chaosraven
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:45 pm
Subject: Carly Scoopon

Yooooou're so Vaiin
I bet you think this pm is about you

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:04 pm

triggercut wrote:I'm firmly of the belief that PM's can be paraphrased to anyone's heart's content....but that's the extent.

Allowing them to be freely quoted creates a potential problem: spoofed PM's.

How's that different from simply lying? Fictional falsehood is the meat and potatoes of these games.

That creates a problem where a less-tech savvy poster is working at a disadvantage

How's that different from simply lying? Some people are more naturally capable of misleading and deceiving than others are.

creates a metagame that goes far outside the scope of what I think most of us like to do in these games--which is play verbal and logic games of induction and deduction.

If we need to be absolute rather than subtle, then I'd rather see a total ban on references to PM content than total permissiveness with respect to importing PM content.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:13 pm

Chaosraven wrote:From: triggercut
To: Chaosraven
Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:45 pm
Subject: Carly Scoopon
Yooooou're so Vaiin
I bet you think this pm is about you

LOL.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:02 pm

Honestly I do not think there is anything wrong with using an exact quote---as long as it it not put as a quote. Keep in mind that the idea is you are repeating something told to you in private. In a face-to-face game there is nothing to stop you from repeating something told to you but the question is whether your recollection is exact or not. If we wanted to keep this as close to FtF as possible then we should not use extra forums and require PMs be deleted as soon as they are read. I don't think that feasible though due to the time line these games run over versus the FtF games.

If I have a PM that says

Chaosraven wrote:you are a butthead

there is nothing wrong with my telling everyone Chaosraven called me a butthead. I shouldn't use it as a quote though. And ANY reference to a PM from or to the Moderator should be strictly verboten.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:09 pm

I'm missing the "why" part here. Why shouldn't you be able to post PMs? They are easy enough to lie about. The only problem I would have with PM posting and PM alluding is with games where people are trying to metagame roles out of meant to be hidden the game moderator. That's why I think that any communication by moderator that could be deciphered by another player ought to be public knowledge. It's why I don't like the fishing for roles by posting parts of you game start PM, even if I have done it myself.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:13 pm

LordMortis wrote:I'm missing the "why" part here. Why shouldn't you be able to post PMs? They are easy enough to lie about. The only problem I would have with PM posting and PM alluding is with games where people are trying to metagame roles out of meant to be hidden the game moderator.

Here's the main problem. If you quote a snippet, that confirms nothing. Maybe the conversation didn't even take place, since a snippet is easy to forge. If you paste reams of extant data seconds after someone requests it, that confirms something: it confirms that the dialogue took place since relevant forgery is highly unlikely on that scale.

We shouldn't be able to prove X if the rules, in letter and spirit, never intended for X to be provable.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:24 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:Here's the main problem. If you quote a snippet, that confirms nothing. Maybe the conversation didn't even take place, since a snippet is easy to forge. If you paste reams of extant data seconds after someone requests it, that confirms something: it confirms that the dialogue took place since relevant forgery is highly unlikely on that scale.

This doesn't bother me. As long as you aren't hyper linking to an external site and taking the game to a whole different level of proof.

We shouldn't be able to prove X if the rules, in letter and spirit, never intended for X to be provable.

I've only seen a couple of games where the rules in letter said no mentioning PMs. At that point you don't mention them. (even though some players still did) The spirit has been different for different games.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:00 pm

I think the point is that the rules don't always specify everything they should, and when some point is underdetermined by the rules, different people will have (and will act on) different perceptions of the default conventions.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:30 pm

My view has always been it's OK to talk about a PM and what someone said but not to actually post the PM in the forum. I view it as gossip in the village. So and SO said this to me the other day. If you post the actual PM then it's like taping a conversation and then playing it back, illegal in some states.

So it's all up to the host of the game. I'll follow whatever rule they impose.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:25 pm

Lassr wrote:So it's all up to the host of the game. I'll follow whatever rule they impose.

Actually as a relatively civilized society of WW players perhaps this is something we need to address as a group and come to some modicum of agreement on what should be the Restriction or Acceptance. (especially before people start discussing arbitrary Penalties...)