Rich in KCK wrote:Oh I don't agree with FFG at all but at least I can tell where he is coming from all the time where as with tals I get the initial impression that he is trying to educate himself on the issue but later in the treads he comes across as having already made his mind up before he asked the original question.
Just to clarify I do understand drivers and did before this discussion started. My confusion was how a starforce driver could cause an issue with other aspects of the PC.
This thread has proved useful in clarifying some of it. Blackhawks comments were interesting, although the hardware failure a little exteme.
Huh... dunno... I still find the possibility of it damaging hardware highly unlikely. Screwing up your hardware in your OS, sure... all I'm hearing is 'oh, it breaks hardware for sure!', but with nothing more than anecdotal evidence. If it does, okay... but HOW? It isn't a virus... it doesn't have a malicious intent, so what is it doing that can flash your hardware (or do something similar that damages it)? (I'm not saying you have these answers, but it would be cool if someone did). I see a lot (and not just here, because I've been interested and searching around) of allegations, but no 'starforce does this and that's what broke x' evidence, nor do I see statements from the company saying 'it's impossible that it has broken x because of y'. I see some evidence of their being driver conflicts and software issues, and the company admitting to those, but I don't see much in the way of hard evidence of this sort of stuff being done by their drivers...
Doesn't mean it isn't happening (so no need for certain people in this thread to get pissy with me), but it certainly doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and it remains something that seems highly unlikely... so I'm just curious.
I'd be interested, killbot, if after you flashed your drive (and assuming it worked) if you would install the starforce protected app again and see if it has the same result. Might be more trouble than you are willing to expend on the problem, but I'd certainly be interested in if it is in fact the cause of your problem (coincidence being coincidence)... I'm in software, and one of the first things we'd ask QA when troubleshooting bugs was ask if they could reproduce the error with regularity, and what method would result in a reproduceable result. With information like that from end users, starforce could work on their protection method and make a better product that avoids the problems people have, hopefully with the end result somewhere down the line being that people who've had problems with these applications in the past can play them without worry and not miss out on games they would otherwise enjoy.
Rich in KCK wrote:Damn tals how many threads are you going to start or comment in about this starforce issue. It seems like you ask the same questions about honesty and actual examples of starforce in use but when they come back contrary to your own beliefs about the issue you start insinuating that the posters are lying or ignorant.
It seems more like you are on a crusade to defend starforce rather than a crusade for the truth as your initial questions lead us to believe.
There are other issues with the whole starforce thing as well like the fact that it doesn't uninstall after you uninstall a game and the fact that there is no mention of it doing this.
I haven't had a game use it yet that I'm aware of, I know I don't have a current game since my last rebuild installed that uses it so I have no first hand knowledge of its performance but I do know that I don't agree with their nondisclosure tactics.
I also have seen enough posts and actual tests run on systems with it and without it to know that there is indeed a real problem with it.
Rats I have to respond to this one as well The defend SF I think i've clarified
The uninstall is a lame argument if you are aware of starforce and how it works and a valid one if you just get the game without understanding Starforce. Starforce can be uninistalled - at one point I had a policy of not getting the game unless the ability to uninstall starforce existed. Their are now so many of these unistallers that it really isn't an issue - IMHO!
Re the tests these are on certain machines - whether they are valid on the later version is difficult to know. Although from the SH3 thread we know of at least one person who has been badly effected by Starforce.
One question you query my crusade for truth - are you actually that interested in the truth or have you made your mind up?
Rich in KCK wrote:Oh I don't agree with FFG at all but at least I can tell where he is coming from all the time where as with tals I get the initial impression that he is trying to educate himself on the issue but later in the treads he comes across as having already made his mind up before he asked the original question.
Just to clarify I do understand drivers and did before this discussion started. My confusion was how a starforce driver could cause an issue with other aspects of the PC.
This thread has proved useful in clarifying some of it. Blackhawks comments were interesting, although the hardware failure a little exteme.
Tals
Then I apologize to you Tals if I misinterpreted your posts. It still came across to me in later posts that your mind was made up that starforce was and is nothing but good despite any and all examples of its interferance with other peoples computers both at the software and hardware level.
Rich in KCK wrote:Damn tals how many threads are you going to start or comment in about this starforce issue. It seems like you ask the same questions about honesty and actual examples of starforce in use but when they come back contrary to your own beliefs about the issue you start insinuating that the posters are lying or ignorant.
It seems more like you are on a crusade to defend starforce rather than a crusade for the truth as your initial questions lead us to believe.
There are other issues with the whole starforce thing as well like the fact that it doesn't uninstall after you uninstall a game and the fact that there is no mention of it doing this.
I haven't had a game use it yet that I'm aware of, I know I don't have a current game since my last rebuild installed that uses it so I have no first hand knowledge of its performance but I do know that I don't agree with their nondisclosure tactics.
I also have seen enough posts and actual tests run on systems with it and without it to know that there is indeed a real problem with it.
Rats I have to respond to this one as well The defend SF I think i've clarified
The uninstall is a lame argument if you are aware of starforce and how it works and a valid one if you just get the game without understanding Starforce. Starforce can be uninistalled - at one point I had a policy of not getting the game unless the ability to uninstall starforce existed. Their are now so many of these unistallers that it really isn't an issue - IMHO!
Re the tests these are on certain machines - whether they are valid on the later version is difficult to know. Although from the SH3 thread we know of at least one person who has been badly effected by Starforce.
One question you query my crusade for truth - are you actually that interested in the truth or have you made your mind up?
Tals
Yeah I made my mind up, I don't care what it does to other peoples computers I'll try it and the games that come with it until it fucks mine up and then I'll blast the hell out of it. I guess you could call it a personal wait and see approach to its actual programing. I still don't agree with not telling the layman that it is even on the pc or that a simple game uninstall will not uninstall starforce but I understand this is more in the hands of the developer not the hands of the makers of starforce itself.
I know that uninstalling the hidden device drivers manually can do some nasty stuff to your system, but what? I never did it, so I don't know, but the company even says not to try that.
ohh and here is your rolly eyes you lost em.
-AttAdude
LordMortis wrote:Where do you get a list of games with the Starforce on them? My machine has been getting really wonky lately and I can't figure out why. It seems to centered around my DVD player.
I think their are a number of apps out there that will detect what protection a program uses.
Seems to work well - I vaguely remember one that did a full scan of your hard drive but I can't find it at the moment. It also checked the cd as well to allow you to not install if the copy protection was one you did not like.
Rich in KCK wrote:Oh I don't agree with FFG at all but at least I can tell where he is coming from all the time where as with tals I get the initial impression that he is trying to educate himself on the issue but later in the treads he comes across as having already made his mind up before he asked the original question.
Just to clarify I do understand drivers and did before this discussion started. My confusion was how a starforce driver could cause an issue with other aspects of the PC.
This thread has proved useful in clarifying some of it. Blackhawks comments were interesting, although the hardware failure a little exteme.
Tals
Then I apologize to you Tals if I misinterpreted your posts. It still came across to me in later posts that your mind was made up that starforce was and is nothing but good despite any and all examples of its interferance with other peoples computers both at the software and hardware level.
Possibly comes across because I have no issue with installing it on my pc and am surprised by those (partcularly the techies in here) who won't touch it. Most of us in here should be able to handle the majority of issues that would arise on our pc.
So hopefully clarified I don't like it, but I live with it and I don't understand those that have not experienced it and yet it is the worst poison/virus that exists
I do actually think it is a more difficult copy protection to break than other types. How is SH3 doing the rounds, BIA was on the torrents almost the second it hit the shelves.
Tals
p.s agreed regarding the layman part and I guess publishers don't like to say as it is such a sensitive issue.
Kratz wrote:I'd be interested, killbot, if after you flashed your drive (and assuming it worked) if you would install the starforce protected app again and see if it has the same result.
Well I was not able to re-flash the drive. The manufacturer's own firmware loader program would not recognize it. Neither would WinXP, Win98, RedHat 9, a SuSE Live CD, and DOS 6.2.
Given that I am not Really a robot I can't talk directly to my computers and determine that it was SF that screwed the drive with 100% certainity. I can only go by the evidence presented to me. Up to and until SF was installed on my computer the drive worked. Afterwards the drive stopped working and was rendered completely inoperable. The case seems pretty straightforward to me (and the argument is only strengthened by the experiences of others.) but since there is only my account to go by I can't make anyone believe me.
On a side note, if anyone wants a free copy of Scrapland PM me. No box, 2 discs and a manual.
Note 2: Norton Ghost totally saved my ass last night and I think EVERYONE should have a copy (or its equivalent) I used to spend 4+ hours getting Windows reinstalled. Last night I spent 15 minutes plus a program or two. GET IT!
Note 3: it saddens me that tals gains joy through the suffering of others.
Eduardo X wrote:I really like Stardock's answer to the question: if your game is going to be pirated, release free expansions and patches that only paying costumers can download. It won't stop it all, but it sure will help!
Actually Stardock has a new system in place. Its an activation system that dials home and checks signatures from your PC, and your encrypted key against whats stored in their database. They have one new product out with this system, all products will be re-launched with the new system shortly.
As for Killbots beautiful story, Nexus doesn't use Starforce, but I did enjoy your heartfelt story!
Actually, the import version does - I know becasuse I got it and I have Starforce No problems yet though.
Eduardo X wrote:Kratz, people with USB drives have said it destroys their drive. It doesn't ruin the drivers, it breaks the drive.
Luckily, I don't have one.
How can it "break" a drive? How can it do something physical? Maybe it can screw with some software internal to the drive, but it can't actually break the drive.
tals wrote:Assuming he actually knows what he is talking about - anyone able to confirm whether Nexus has starforce and if not then I guess it just reemphasises my point
Tals
p.s saying it destroys hw goes even further lol - made my day that one
The import version has Starforce, don't know about the US version. I think that is where the confusion is arising from.
Grifman wrote:The import version has Starforce, don't know about the US version. I think that is where the confusion is arising from.
Crap, I bought mine from GoGamer. Does the import version come in a DVD case or something? How can I tell which version I have without installing it?
Don't bother. they all have Starforce. I bought mine at EB Games in the Southern U.S.
I haven't had any problem, but I agree with you. Ghost is a great program, if you have an image on the standby just go for it. The game is worth making an image just to play it. Just have a Starforce games image and an everything else image. Images rock, just ask the FBI
The short version, from what I can gather, is that a driver-level component is installed. This driver loads very early in the boot process, so it hooks into the interrupts first. From there, it detects attempts by drive emulators and such to bypass the physical CD. Such can be detected as the interrupt would have been redirected elsewhere. However, since it's first in the list, all such attempts must eventually reach it, before it passes through to the OS.
Other parts of the program will check for its signature in memory (to ensure that Starforce itself is loaded), and perform CRC checks (to make sure it has not been tamperred with). The driver level component will also cross check the main executable and any overlays, DLLs, etc. to make sure those have not been tampered with either.
I am also guessing it has a specific algorithm to read parts of the CD based on its own schedule and calculate a checksum. If the checksum doesn't match what's stored, then it's likely a copy.
Some of the anti-copy techniques in a CD involves making non-sensical track into or write hidden tracks that's not in TOC but readable if you can force the drive into direct read, or something similar to that.
And finally, the code has been compiled in a way to make it virtually impossible to trace and debug in order to thwart pirates and such who'd love to crack the protection.
Part of this is conjecture from available evidence...
My game FAQs | Playing: She Will Punish Them, Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius, The Outer Worlds
Well no one will like hearing this but....I've begun to have a problem with my system rebooting when I am running comp at 1024. Tell it to send report to MS and what does the webpage that comes back say. The error was caused by a device driver. If you have recently installed a device driver blah blah blah....Only one new device driver in the last month or two and we all know what that is. Christ this is like toture how can you make such a cool game and screw it up like this.
All right now more compression over 256, see if that helps me.
Eduardo X wrote:Kratz, people with USB drives have said it destroys their drive. It doesn't ruin the drivers, it breaks the drive.
Luckily, I don't have one.
How can it "break" a drive? How can it do something physical? Maybe it can screw with some software internal to the drive, but it can't actually break the drive.
Ever hear of a boot sector virus? I've seen them wipe drives, and last through standard formats, even fdisks. It's certainly possible that software can destroy hardware, it's been done before, more than once.
That said it's gotta be extremely unlikely. And I'd wager killbot737's issue is more likely a very freaky coincidence than a starforce caused problem. More likely in my mind is that the drive was just ready to die, and happened to go right after starforce hit the drive.
I'm sure there are tons of slashdot or other PC geeks trying to prove starforce is evil, and causes hardware level damage. Even a shred of proof could really hurt starforce, but there hasn't been any hard proof that I've seen yet that it damages hardware.
Eduardo X wrote:Kratz, people with USB drives have said it destroys their drive. It doesn't ruin the drivers, it breaks the drive.
Luckily, I don't have one.
How can it "break" a drive? How can it do something physical? Maybe it can screw with some software internal to the drive, but it can't actually break the drive.
Ever hear of a boot sector virus? I've seen them wipe drives, and last through standard formats, even fdisks. It's certainly possible that software can destroy hardware, it's been done before, more than once.
Well, I think the problem I have is terminology. To me "break" or "destroy" means physical damage is sustained. Look at this explanation of a boot sector virus I found:
A boot sector virus infects or substitutes its own code for either the DOS boot sector or the Master Boot Record (MBR). The MBR is small program that runs every time the computer starts up. It controls the boot sequence and determines which partition the computer boots from. The MBR generally resides on the first sector of the hard disk.
See, the drive itself isn't "broken" or "destroyed", no physical damage has been done. The problem is still a software problem. The virus is substituting one program for another. Nothing physical is done to the drive - the problem is with its own internal software.
I guess it is semantics, but in my mind the drive is "disabled" or "corrupted" but it certainly isn't "broken" or "destroyed". Not that it matters in the end. I just think the language is sloppy
'Rendered useless' is better semantics. Whether by hammer of software, it is 'rendered useless'.
In any case, I do agree with an earlier post. While software can 'render useless' a piece of hardware, it is rather unlikely . It is extremely unlikely to have actually been reponsible for the death of that drive (unless, by freak chance, it wrote gibberish into its firmware 'spot' - yes, I know - technical terms). It is likely just coincidence.
lokiju wrote:From what I know of this, it seems to do the job it was set out for (I think I heard it's 99% effective?)...and that is a good thing. But when something goes wrong, it's a doozy.
This reminds me of SecuROM's debut. It also had a real failure rate (not solvable with driver updates) of about 1%, mainly on old hardware. If a title moves 250,000 units you're looking at 2500 upset customers -- ask Jeff V about that one; he got majorly cheesed off at Impression tech support when company policy prevented us from acknowledging that our product was flawed. Of course, the only consequence of a SecuROM failure was being unable to run the game. I wonder if it would've been accepted if it actually messed up people's hardware, like SF reportedly does.
Eduardo X wrote:
lokiju wrote:So what the hell IS the answer to piracy?
I really like Stardock's answer to the question: if your game is going to be pirated, release free expansions and patches that only paying costumers can download. It won't stop it all, but it sure will help!
Exactly. The best solution isn't technical, but social. This is true of so many problems, yet people so seldom understand it. Like Blackhawk said, you have to reduce the incentive to cheat, or reward people who don't.
LordMortis wrote:Where do you get a list of games with the Starforce on them? My machine has been getting really wonky lately and I can't figure out why. It seems to centered around my DVD player.
I think their are a number of apps out there that will detect what protection a program uses.
Seems to work well - I vaguely remember one that did a full scan of your hard drive but I can't find it at the moment. It also checked the cd as well to allow you to not install if the copy protection was one you did not like.
Well sonofabitch! I just read this thread and finally figured out my DVD-ROM hasn't been reading some game CDs! I looked around in my device manager and sure enough, there's StarForce! ARGH!
Didn't we have a rather large discussion about this at GG right before it closed? Someone, I forgot who, had a web page with many useful apps, and also a page about StarForce, and the tool for getting rid of it, the Starforce removal tool. This web page also had games listed that had Starforce on them, which I found useful. I also used the removal tool, as I'd had Sacred installed, and it got rid of it with no problem.
snoleopard wrote:Didn't we have a rather large discussion about this at GG right before it closed? Someone, I forgot who, had a web page with many useful apps, and also a page about StarForce, and the tool for getting rid of it, the Starforce removal tool. This web page also had games listed that had Starforce on them, which I found useful. I also used the removal tool, as I'd had Sacred installed, and it got rid of it with no problem.
That was Jeff Jones' site, which appears to be gone now.
Yes, now that you said who's site it was, I remember. Jeff, did you take down the site? I thought it was really useful, and not just for the Starforce part.
LordMortis wrote:Where do you get a list of games with the Starforce on them? My machine has been getting really wonky lately and I can't figure out why. It seems to centered around my DVD player.
I think their are a number of apps out there that will detect what protection a program uses.
Seems to work well - I vaguely remember one that did a full scan of your hard drive but I can't find it at the moment. It also checked the cd as well to allow you to not install if the copy protection was one you did not like.
Well, my own experience with Starforce was less than pleasant. Installed a demo of a game that had Starforce on it. Suddenly my 52x cd burner wouldn't go any faster than 12x. Some fiddling and now I have it back up to 40x, but it'll probably take redoing the drivers etc from scratch to get it back to normal.
And yes, I am 100% sure it was Starforce. Burned a music cd mere minutes before installing said demo. Installed demo. Played a little. Went to burn another music cd and suddenly 12x was the fastest option available
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit - Mitch Hedberg
I had a USB Plextor cd burner that worked fantastic, until the day, yes the very day, I unknowingly installed SF. After that day, it wouldn't work, period. At all! I tried everything under the sun to get it to work again. A reformat of the drive and clean windows install finally fixed it. But then I reinstalled SF again, not knowing what it was at the time. And again, drive went kaput. Some time later I learned about that evil culprit, and did another clean wipe (pain in the ass!) sans SF. You could not pay to install SF on my system know. No way.
tals wrote:Persumably the numerous SF uninstall utilities didn't work and an update of the SF driver wasn't worth considering over a reformat of the drive?
Read more closely. Interloper "unknowingly installed SF" and then "reinstalled SF again, not knowing what it was at the time." How is he going to try uninstalling it with the cleaner or updating it, if he didn't even know it was installed? Score one for the publishers who decide to have their products install Starforce system drivers on your machine without your consent.
When the sun goes out, we'll have eight minutes to live.
What's the point of a separate install if you can't run the program without it? The biggest problem with Starforce's scheme is that it's running all the time, not just when you're playing the game. That makes no ligitimate sense. It should be restricted to the boundaries of the program it's protecting.
And what company is going to put a notice on the box if it's going to negatively impact sales?
Hamsterball_Z wrote:What's the point of a separate install if you can't run the program without it? The biggest problem with Starforce's scheme is that it's running all the time, not just when you're playing the game. That makes no ligitimate sense. It should be restricted to the boundaries of the program it's protecting.
Theres NO evidence SF runs all of the time. In fact, i've read that it only goes into action when a game that is SF encoded is launched.
Also the new SecuRom actually runs all of the time, and has a process in task manager to prove it - AND is known to conflict with MANY drives... SafeDisc also has hidden drivers, so blah. Check out the forums for Act of War, and see how many DVDRW drives the new SecuRom isn't working with.
I guess the main difference now is that SF ain't being broken, while the other two are broken on the day the games come out. Thats probably why SF gets much of the hatred, pisses off the crackmonkeys. OMG this game has Starforce? You mean I actually have to SPEND MONEY to play it? Bah! Starforce sux!
Hamsterball_Z wrote:What's the point of a separate install if you can't run the program without it? The biggest problem with Starforce's scheme is that it's running all the time, not just when you're playing the game. That makes no ligitimate sense. It should be restricted to the boundaries of the program it's protecting.
Theres NO evidence SF runs all of the time. In fact, i've read that it only goes into action when a game that is SF encoded is launched.
Also the new SecuRom actually runs all of the time, and has a process in task manager to prove it - AND is known to conflict with MANY drives... SafeDisc also has hidden drivers, so blah. Check out the forums for Act of War, and see how many DVDRW drives the new SecuRom isn't working with.
I guess the main difference now is that SF ain't being broken, while the other two are broken on the day the games come out. Thats probably why SF gets much of the hatred, pisses off the crackmonkeys. OMG this game has Starforce? You mean I actually have to SPEND MONEY to play it? Bah! Starforce sux!
Why does it always seem that the argument of a strong supporter of Starforce eventually degenerates into calling the other side a bunch of pirates?
I mean, I know FFG is a troll, but I always see it happen with other people too.
FFG909 wrote: Thats probably why SF gets much of the hatred, pisses off the crackmonkeys. OMG this game has Starforce? You mean I actually have to SPEND MONEY to play it? Bah! Starforce sux!
This statement is so beyond the pale of all logical thought that I can't even begin to form a coherent response. FFG909 seems to be so far away from the line of reason that the line is a dot to him. Thank you Joey Tribbiani!
The defend SF I think i've clarified 
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