Total War: Warhammer

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:00 pm

Lee wrote:Are the Total War games pause-and-give-orders?

Yup.

AWS260 · Post by **AWS260** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:27 am

Release date: April 28, 2016. Chaos faction is the preorder bonus.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:46 am

AWS260 wrote:Chaos faction is the preorder bonus.

WTF? Has preorder culture really sunk to this level? They are so desperate to coerce customers into buying the game before having access to reviews (and these games are notoriously buggy and never truly fixed) that they're willing to withhold what is essentially the second most central army from those who won't? That's so amazingly shitty that it's making my interest in this game drop through the floor.

Stuie · Post by **Stuie** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:01 am

TiLT wrote:
AWS260 wrote:Chaos faction is the preorder bonus.
WTF? Has preorder culture really sunk to this level? They are so desperate to coerce customers into buying the game before having access to reviews (and these games are notoriously buggy and never truly fixed) that they're willing to withhold what is essentially the second most central army from those who won't? That's so amazingly shitty that it's making my interest in this game drop through the floor.

They are not withholding anything; they are rewarding the people who will be beta testing their initial release. Others have to pay for the faction when it hits a 75% off Steam sale.

Oops, that sounds really cynical. And I'm the guy that loves CA's games...

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:02 pm

*shrug* The preorder bonus DLC ship sailed ages ago. Everyone else will still be able to play Chaos if they want and it doesn't effect in the slightest how great the game looks.

Definitely be picking this one up and probably be taking a couple of days off work when it comes out to play.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:30 pm

Sepiche wrote:*shrug* The preorder bonus DLC ship sailed ages ago. Everyone else will still be able to play Chaos if they want and it doesn't effect in the slightest how great the game looks.

...

And the gaming community's ability to rationalize anything continues to amaze me. No wonder companies get away with it.

Let me ask you the following: When was the last time you saw an online pass (not season pass)? What does the answer to that question signify?

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:49 pm

And that is partially why I refuse to buy TW games upon release anymore. Hell, the last one I did was Empire, I think. I just wait to super sales and then get the game and all the DLC and let it sit in my backlog on Steam for years.

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:00 pm

*double shrug* The bottom line to me is if you want to play a game at release you pay a premium. If you can wait a few months you'll inevitably be able to get the game and all it's DLC at a big discount. Hell, with sites like GMG you don't even have to pay full price at release anymore.

I mean, we're living in a golden age of discount gaming and if you don't like what companies are charging upfront for games you have countless other options to pursue.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:16 pm

Sepiche wrote:*double shrug* The bottom line to me is if you want to play a game at release you pay a premium.

Since when was this discussion about the amount you pay? If you're going to disagree with me, at least make sure you know what you're disagreeing with first.

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:41 pm

TiLT wrote:Since when was this discussion about the amount you pay?

Since you posted this:

TiLT wrote:that they're willing to withhold what is essentially the second most central army from those who won't?

They aren't withholding anything... they're just giving away for free to people who preorder what will inevitably be a DLC available for purchase after the game comes out.

If preordering anything engenders that much rage in you then just wait until the game's out and buy it and the Chaos DLC when it becomes available. If it's not a question of money then that shouldn't bother you in the slightest.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:43 pm

Sepiche wrote:If preordering anything engenders that much rage in you then just wait until the game's out and buy it and the Chaos DLC when it becomes available. If it's not a question of money then that shouldn't bother you in the slightest.

Your logic is alien to me. Money is the least of my concerns, believe me.

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:56 pm

TiLT wrote:
Sepiche wrote:If preordering anything engenders that much rage in you then just wait until the game's out and buy it and the Chaos DLC when it becomes available. If it's not a question of money then that shouldn't bother you in the slightest.
Your logic is alien to me. Money is the least of my concerns, believe me.

Let me break it down for you... preordering seems to make you mad because who knows until a game comes out if it's any good, too buggy, etc. Fair point.

Your little house of rage is built on the foundation that if you don't preorder you won't be getting access to Chaos as a faction.

My point is that Chaos will inevitably be just another DLC available to buy once the game is out... it's just being given to people who preorder for free.

So you don't have to preorder if it makes you sad and you can still buy the Chaos DLC once the game releases and have access to it like all us other poor saps who preordered... it's just going to cost you more money than if you just preordered the game (unless of course you want until it's on sale).

If money isn't a factor, then none of this should bother you in the slightest as the only thing you're missing out on for not preordering is free DLC.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:04 pm

Sepiche wrote:If money isn't a factor, then none of this should bother you in the slightest as the only thing you're missing out on for not preordering is free DLC.

How can you actually type down what's wrong and then completely forget about it seconds later? I told you money isn't a factor. You're free to drop your pants and bend over for gaming companies all you like, but you're giving the rest of us two options and telling us to suck it up:

1) Buy the game before we have a chance to hear from reviewers if it's any good. Get the Chaos faction as a reward for being completely fucking stupid.
2) Don't preorder and don't get the Chaos faction. Maybe get it at some indeterminate point in the future, for extra charge. Despite buying the game full price. Or maybe you won't get it at all. Who knows? You certainly don't.

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:20 pm

TiLT wrote:How can you actually type down what's wrong and then completely forget about it seconds later? I told you money isn't a factor. You're free to drop your pants and bend over for gaming companies all you like, but you're giving the rest of us two options and telling us to suck it up:

1) Buy the game before we have a chance to hear from reviewers if it's any good. Get the Chaos faction as a reward for being completely fucking stupid.
2) Don't preorder and don't get the Chaos faction. Maybe get it at some indeterminate point in the future, for extra charge. Despite buying the game full price. Or maybe you won't get it at all. Who knows? You certainly don't.

First, chill with the ad hominem attacks dude. We have a difference of opinion and I didn't start calling you names when I responded to you. Please show at least a tiny bit of respect for your fellow board members.

Second. Yes, yes I do know they will make it available as a DLC because it will make them more money and that's what game companies are after... it's the bottom line if you will. Plus every other Total War game that came with with a free DLC ultimately made that available as a DLC to people who didn't preorder. This is all nothing new.

If there's a game I think I'd like coming out, one that I know I will inevitably buy, I don't mind plunking down for a preorder... especially if I get something out of it... like a free DLC. With some games that's a risk I'm willing to take because the money doesn't bother me. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but seeing as I've enjoyed every previous Total War game it's in no way a risk for me.

You might have a different opinion on the Total War series and preordering in general, but that in no way makes my opinion any less valid or "completely fucking stupid" compared to yours.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:20 pm

There are a few things that make Warhammer Warhammer. One of the big ones is Chaos. It is a fundamental part of anything Warhammer. It isn't something you could add to Warhammer later (or skip) and still have a Warhammer experience.

They completed it before release, removed it from the game, and are charging you separately for it if you don't preorder.

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:33 pm

I don't want to get into the middle of any brawl, but I am 100% positive that the Chaos faction will be available as a separate purchase either on release day or not long after. How do I know that - I am a historian. Total War: Attila had the Viking Forefathers pack as a freebie with preorder. When the game released (same day), you could buy the Viking Forefathers pack for $7.99. So the question does not become IF you can get the Chaos faction, but instead "is it worth saving $8 to buy the game before any reviews come out?"

Given the Steam refund policy, this argument seems a little off-center. Sure, maybe 2 hours is not enough time to see if the game has show stopping bugs, but you could preorder the game, not play it, and as long as the reviews come out within the two week window for refund (and they should, as there were reviews of Attila within 5 days of release), get the refund with no problem at all. If the reviews are positive, you save $8 and keep the game, if the reviews are negative you get the money back. Problem solved.

My prediction - it will be as polarizing as any Total War game and it will be released with a few annoying bugs that some people can overlook and others will not be able to handle. That seems to describe every total war release, with the possible exception of Shogun II.

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:41 pm

Blackhawk wrote:There are a few things that make Warhammer Warhammer. One of the big ones is Chaos. It is a fundamental part of anything Warhammer. It isn't something you could add to Warhammer later (or skip) and still have a Warhammer experience.

Chaos is definitely a big part of Warhammer, but nothing about having a Chaos DLC indicates Chaos won't be in the game at release... you just won't be able to play as them at release without the DLC.

Like it or not this is in line with how countless other publishers and CA have done releases and DLC in the past.

I can definitely understand the money angle, but this goes back to my previous point... this is a golden age of cheap games... you just have to wait for them to go on sale to get amazing amounts of content for your money, and that seems like a reasonable trade off to me. There are plenty of games I care less about and am happy to pick up on sale down the line, while there are others I enjoy greatly and am willing to pay more for to play at release.

Only the individual can determine where that line is for them on any particular game and it is entirely up to personal preference.

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:51 pm

Sepiche wrote: Like it or not this is in line with how countless other publishers and CA have done releases and DLC in the past.

I would actually disagree with you, if what I'm reading is accurate. Admittedly, I know zero about Warhammer, but it sounds like keeping Chaos from people who decide to buy the game on day two is like releasing a game based on World War 2 and only letting people who pre-order have access to Germany or the United States.

Also, I'd say companies don't usually withhold something this significant from people who don't preorder. I always thought the recent Fallout games did it right by giving you an equipment pack on preorder, which was fun but didn't alter the game at all if you didn't preorder. This seems to be more extreme, and has become CA's calling card. Their tactics have actually had the reverse effect on myself and no doubt other gamers. Not only will I not be pressured into preordering, but I'll now wait until the full game and DLC are sold at a significant discount (75% or >). This minimizes their profit from me instead of giving me incentive to buy it earlier. I'm still waiting to purchase Attila until it comes to $15 or less.

*Edited for grammar

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:49 pm

TiLT wrote:
Sepiche wrote:If money isn't a factor, then none of this should bother you in the slightest as the only thing you're missing out on for not preordering is free DLC.
How can you actually type down what's wrong and then completely forget about it seconds later? I told you money isn't a factor. You're free to drop your pants and bend over for gaming companies all you like, but you're giving the rest of us two options and telling us to suck it up:

1) Buy the game before we have a chance to hear from reviewers if it's any good. Get the Chaos faction as a reward for being completely fucking stupid.
2) Don't preorder and don't get the Chaos faction. Maybe get it at some indeterminate point in the future, for extra charge. Despite buying the game full price. Or maybe you won't get it at all. Who knows? You certainly don't.

Well, you've convinced me. By which I mean I pre-ordered the game just on the slim chance it will spur you on to new heights of invective.

Might I suggest a third option? Don't fucking buy the fucking game if it fucking makes you so fucking miserable.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:11 am

When someone is deeply involved in a hobby (or anything), speaking out against something they consider wrong - perhaps even detrimental - is not an inappropriate thing to do.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:27 am

The entire DLC model is premised on milking the customer. Sure there have been DLC's that have been worth their weight in gold, but those are rare. The first DLC I remember was horse barding for 5 bucks.

You might think that's an anomaly, but years later Xcom decided that colouring your armour was worth 5 bucks.

As Blackhawk mentioned, the Chaos "DLC" was, at best, developed in parallel with the base game. At worst, it's just part of the game that they turned off until you give them more money.

Sure, this is their right and sure, you guys can be perfectly comfortable with it, but that doesn't mean that most DLC isn't simply a way to get the customer to pay more for parts of the game that have no additional cost to development.

These are business models, but they are business models predicated on extracting more cash from the customer for the same development cost. There's no benefit to the customer. We're not getting "extra" (most of the time), we're getting what the base game was before they started slicing pieces out of it. This is not value for money, it's dangling parts of a game in front of their customers and hoping that enough people want it to pay extra for it. Yeah, in this case it's to entice more people to give them money up front and pay full price for the game, but that doesn't change the fact that they made a game, tore a piece off, and then said you can have the piece for "free" if you pre-order (pay release day prices, which are inflated to fleece the must have release day customers). It's insulting on the face of it.

So this is the new reality of the video game industry. We could have as a customer base voted with our dollars against it, but instead we voted with our dollars for it. It's on us. That doesn't mean we have to be happy about it nor does it mean that we should smile while eating our shit sandwich. It shows incredible disdain for their customers, and quite frankly, we deserve it.

Yay, DLC. 5 new maps for Call of Duty for 15 bucks? Sure, great.

We've jumped on DLC hook, line and sinker so well that that's not enough for Publishers. So what do we get next? Season passes. If DLC's are milking us, season passes are sucking our life force. These are a joke half the time. Give us more money (sometimes as much as the original game) and you'll get all the DLC that we produce. Sometimes they don't even tell you what they are going to produce, so you just buy the season pass on the good word of the publisher and faith. Faith based business model. Yikes. What's this? This new DLC is not included in the season pass? It's extra? Sure, why don't I just set up an automated bill payment. You can withdraw money from my account every month, and if you feel like giving me some new textures, I'll be overjoyed.

Of course you get the Borderlands Secret Armoury of General Knox, and that's good value for your money. But most DLC is not like that. Most DLC is somewhere between reskinned units with a new .ini data file and maybe a new mode that is a variation of capture the flag. Oh, you want a house? 5 bucks please.

Rant rant rant.

The point being, DLC has had some positive effects on gaming, but an awful lot of negatives.

For those that are old enough, you'll remember that we used to get the small stuff for free. Wanna play house in Skyrim? Patch, here you go. Want to color your armour? Of course dude, it's trivial, it's part of the base game.

So don't slice up my game, ask me for extra cash, and then expect me to thank you for it. I'm a customer, not a revenue stream.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:32 am

And since my question about online passes flew straight over Sepiche's head, let me spell it out for everyone:

The reason we don't have online passes today is because people made it clear to the publishers that they didn't like them. Anyone who thinks apathy is the solution to everything is doing not only themselves, but everyone else too, a major disservice.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:51 am

Blackhawk wrote:When someone is deeply involved in a hobby (or anything), speaking out against something they consider wrong - perhaps even detrimental - is not an inappropriate thing to do.

I deeply believe that ranting and raving at people over the simple fact that you* think they don't agree with you** is wrong -- perhaps even detrimental. Responding in kind in order to employ sarcasm to demonstrate that I believe that it is wrong -- perhaps even detrimental -- is not an inappropriate thing to do. And it amuses me.

* That's a general "you", not a you "you" -- I think we all know which "you" I'm referring to...
** See above.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:59 am

TiLT wrote:And since my question about online passes flew straight over Sepiche's head, let me spell it out for everyone:

The reason we don't have online passes today is because people made it clear to the publishers that they didn't like them. Anyone who thinks apathy is the solution to everything is doing not only themselves, but everyone else too, a major disservice.

Fine. Instead of being an ass and insulting people here, go do something constructive like contacting Creative Assembly and Sega to let them know you're not going to buy their game because of their shitty marketing schemes. Throwing temper tantrums here and dumping on people who aren't the cause of your pet peeve isn't exactly a major public service.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:31 am

Max Peck wrote:
TiLT wrote:And since my question about online passes flew straight over Sepiche's head, let me spell it out for everyone:

The reason we don't have online passes today is because people made it clear to the publishers that they didn't like them. Anyone who thinks apathy is the solution to everything is doing not only themselves, but everyone else too, a major disservice.
Fine. Instead of being an ass and insulting people here, go do something constructive like contacting Creative Assembly and Sega to let them know you're not going to buy their game because of their shitty marketing schemes. Throwing temper tantrums here and dumping on people who aren't the cause of your pet peeve isn't exactly a major public service.

Afraid of being pulled out of consumer apathy?

Maybe you should take a look in the mirror yourself and realize that this is a forum for discussion, and not everyone is going to see eye to eye. Telling me to shut up and take my opinion directly to the publisher is an attempt at censorship, and I'm not going to give it to you. Not now, not ever.

I'm reacting as strongly as I am because your kind of apathy is directly harmful to the industry we enjoy so much. With Sepiche raising his nose and acting snobby about not caring about what should be his consumer rights being trampled all over, someone has to say something. I don't need you to like me for it.

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:45 am

TiLT,

I agree, customer complaints have achieved quite a bit over the past few years. Off the top of my head I can think of the SimCity refunds, the inclusion of both release day DLC for BLood Bowl II and the removal of DRM from several titles. That being said, I think what Max was trying to say is - unless Sepiche is in charge of marketing and sales for Total War: Warhammer, this is more of an academic debate than a fruitful one. We absolutely should be directing our ire at the company (through a variety of means and if you look at the Steam forums, that is fully underway). But if Sep (or I, or anyone) wants to preorder the game, that is also their prerogative and a forum spat about it is not all that productive.

Still, what I have read here educated me on what is going on (although I could have been educated just as well without the vitriol) and I am certainly not going to put money down until they justify their actions or I see a good review. But as I said, I'm 100% sure the Chaos DLC will be available on release day for separate purchase.

Reemul · Post by **Reemul** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:38 am

I think the point with the pre order DLC this time is the Total games recently have been dreadful at release, shitty, buggy with stuff that doesn't work as intended etc etc.

We know that and the fans know that. Really we want the game to be great, we also want to play as Chaos, what we don't want is to be fucked over by either pre ordering and finding out it's crap or not pre ordering and finding out it's great and adding $10 to the price to be Chaos.

Now if this company had a history of great release, not buggy and no issues there may not be as much of an issue, but they do.

My view is I really want it but I shall wait and get my game from a a site offering deeper discounts rather than pre order through official channels once the reviews are in and won't feel guilty about it as if they drop the shitty pre order dlc buggy release I would have no issue pre ordering it, so fuck em.

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:12 am

As I said, the Steam refund system can be used to mitigate some of the risk, if you "game it" a little.

But let's be fair - DLC is not the first time game companies were not consumer friendly. I am old enough to remember when games were $59 during a time when that amount would equal ~$80 today. They were often so difficult or had such obscure puzzles that you needed a ~$5-10 hint book to beat it or you had to call a pay-by-the-minute hint line. Hell, the support lines for broken games were also pay-by-the-minute. And that was the "halcyon" days when things were "great." We got spoiled a bit in the 90s because the Internet killed that sort of extortion and companies had not figured out how to do micro transactions yet.

So, having lived through a time were corrupted floppies inside a brand new box were a real possibility, I can't get too excited against DLC, since it is optional and your game will run fine without it.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:03 am

baelthazar wrote:As I said, the Steam refund system can be used to mitigate some of the risk, if you "game it" a little.

But let's be fair - DLC is not the first time game companies were not consumer friendly. I am old enough to remember when games were $59 during a time when that amount would equal ~$80 today.

Pre-order for Fallout 4 is 80 bucks (Canadian). While I assume you meant American, I find 80 bucks even in Canadian dollars, a little crazy in this day and age.

There are a million ways that companies screw their customers, and DLC is not the most egregious by any means. As I mentioned in my post, some DLC is fantastic, is good value for the money and is a boon to gaming in general. So it's not necessarily DLC as a concept that is the problem. We had expansions before, we have DLC now. Some expansions were just as much a scam as some DLC.

What DLC has done though, is created an expectation of paying more later. As shown in this thread, DLC is "not a big deal" to most people. We've now been trained that we need to spend more money if we want everything. Which is fine, until things like clothing dye are being sold for 5 bucks. Or worse, pay 10 bucks for a core system that by all definitions of reasonable should have been part of the base game. I can ignore buying new colours for 5 bucks. It's harder to ignore a new character class, or Chaos as a faction in a Warhammer game.

We've been trained to spend additional money, to expect it, to consider it the norm. I like my money. I like to keep it if I can.

But you raised a good point, and today, if I have any patience at all, I can buy the base game AND all the DLC for 5-10 bucks. Sure it might take a year or two for the price to drop that much, but I can wait. My backlog is as big as most peoples. Good games are good even when they are a year old. We're past the stage where you need new hardware each year, and games from last year aren't as good as games from this year. We may see a time when that is again the case, but I regularly play games that are 5+ years old, and they are fantastic.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:19 pm

To be clear, I would have been far less annoyed at this (but still annoyed) if they were holding back something like, say, a Lizardman army, or an undead army. Those are secondary to Warhammer Fantasy and could more easily be seen as a bonus. Chaos however is the main enemy of the Empire, and this game indeed takes place in that Empire.

It's been almost exactly 9 years since the last time we got a Warhammer strategy game (Mark of Chaos). Imagine if you were a fan of strategy games set in WW2, but for some reason even getting one of those per decade was unlikely. Then one of the bigger studios that deal with strategy games announced that they were developing a major WW2 game. This studio is also known for having released nothing but broken games over the last few years, and often never fixing them before moving on to their next project. As they get closer to release, they proudly announce that if you preorder their WW2 game, you get the German faction. But, some people around you point out, you can get the German faction if you pay more, even though the company developing this game has said nothing of the sort. Would you feel happy about the game at this point?

Chaos in a Warhammer game is a good comparison to Germany in a WW2 game. They are the main enemy. Anything else is incidental distractions. Leaving them out is such an assholish thing to do that it leaves me flabbergasted.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:46 pm

Good god, I just realized. This is almost a match made in heaven. It is almost like Creative Assembly and Games Workshop had a baby.

They're the perfect couple.

Chraolic · Post by **Chraolic** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:52 pm

TiLT wrote:Chaos in a Warhammer game is a good comparison to Germany in a WW2 game. They are the main enemy. Anything else is incidental distractions. Leaving them out is such an assholish thing to do that it leaves me flabbergasted.

I'm sure you can still have Chaos as an enemy, you just won't be able to play as them in the Campaign. It's exactly like the Greek factions in Rome 2.

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:34 pm

Blackhawk wrote:Good god, I just realized. This is almost a match made in heaven. It is almost like Creative Assembly and Games Workshop had a baby.

They're the perfect couple.

This is why I'm excited enough to...preorder

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:56 pm

Sepiche wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:Good god, I just realized. This is almost a match made in heaven. It is almost like Creative Assembly and Games Workshop had a baby.

They're the perfect couple.
This is why I'm excited enough to...preorder

I don't think that's how he meant it. Both companies have a long and storied history of emptying their customer's wallets in a piecemeal manner.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:46 pm

TiLT wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
TiLT wrote:And since my question about online passes flew straight over Sepiche's head, let me spell it out for everyone:

The reason we don't have online passes today is because people made it clear to the publishers that they didn't like them. Anyone who thinks apathy is the solution to everything is doing not only themselves, but everyone else too, a major disservice.
Fine. Instead of being an ass and insulting people here, go do something constructive like contacting Creative Assembly and Sega to let them know you're not going to buy their game because of their shitty marketing schemes. Throwing temper tantrums here and dumping on people who aren't the cause of your pet peeve isn't exactly a major public service.
Afraid of being pulled out of consumer apathy?

Maybe you should take a look in the mirror yourself and realize that this is a forum for discussion, and not everyone is going to see eye to eye. Telling me to shut up and take my opinion directly to the publisher is an attempt at censorship, and I'm not going to give it to you. Not now, not ever.

I'm reacting as strongly as I am because your kind of apathy is directly harmful to the industry we enjoy so much. With Sepiche raising his nose and acting snobby about not caring about what should be his consumer rights being trampled all over, someone has to say something. I don't need you to like me for it.

You keep using that word*. I don't think it means what you think it means...

I didn't tell you to shut up. I told you that insulting people here because you think that they don't agree with you is immature. It's infantile, and serves no purpose other than signalling to an adult that you're incapable of putting forth a rational and cogent opinion. Prove me wrong -- set out exactly what consumer rights are being trampled upon by the pre-order option offered for this game, and do it without insulting anyone. Bonus points if you can provide citations to corroborate that the consumer rights to which you lay claim actually exist.

You accuse people that don't appear to share your opinion of being apathetic and state as if fact that their alleged apathy is a disservice to the games industry, yet out of hand you reject a simple and practical suggestion for taking meaningful action. When Eidos/Sqenix ditched their insanely complicated pre-order scheme for Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, they didn't do it because some dysfunctional little shit with anger issues went onto a minor (albeit awesome!) web forum and crapped on random people who didn't slavishly agree with him. They did it because a metric fuck-ton of angry potential customers contacted them and told them to cut it the fuck out. Lo and behold, it turned out that they were more interested in selling games than in pissing off customers, and they did indeed cut it the fuck out. So decide whether you actually want to have a chance at making a change, or just go ahead and keep on shitting on people who can't change anything for you. Your call, although I do feel I should be a little helpful and point out that you can both let Squenix know what you think (Yay! You might accomplish something constructive!) and continue shitting on people here if you feel they are not of sufficient ideological purity in your cause (Yay! You provide me with more lulz, you silly little shit!).

* I'm not apathetic, I just don't care about it as much as you do. Fundamentally, in a free market someone offers me goods or services at a price of their choosing. If I feel that their price is too high, or the terms of sale are unnecessarily disadvantageous, I choose not to purchase said goods and services. If their terms violate pertinent trade regulations, I raise the issue with the appropriate regulatory authority. I do not rant and rage at random passersby, because that would not show that I'm a good consumer, it would show that I'm insane.

Edit: My words, they are bad and incomplete (as usual). I should probably let a subcontract for a copy editor.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:46 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Sepiche wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:Good god, I just realized. This is almost a match made in heaven. It is almost like Creative Assembly and Games Workshop had a baby.

They're the perfect couple.
This is why I'm excited enough to...preorder
I don't think that's how he meant it. Both companies have a long and storied history of emptying their customer's wallets in a piecemeal manner.

Yep. That's how I meant it. Putting out a product in such a way as to milk every single cent from their customers is something both are infamous for.

As is putting it out now and worrying about whether it works or not sometime after the sequel.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:17 pm

I really want this to be good.

Nightwish · Post by **Nightwish** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:49 pm

Max Peck wrote: Fundamentally, in a free market someone offers me goods or services at a price of their choosing.

In a free market, you'd know exactly what you were buying, could return it if it wasn't what was promised and you'd also have plenty of competition to choose from, among other things.
As such, a free market doesn't even apply to a creative work. They're also about as common as a unicorn.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:38 pm

Nightwish wrote:
Max Peck wrote: Fundamentally, in a free market someone offers me goods or services at a price of their choosing.
In a free market, you'd know exactly what you were buying, could return it if it wasn't what was promised and you'd also have plenty of competition to choose from, among other things.
As such, a free market doesn't even apply to a creative work. They're also about as common as a unicorn.

No, you're describing an ideal world, not a free market. All that "free market" means is that sellers and buyers are free to agree upon a price for goods and services without undue interference on prices from outside forces. It's all about supply and demand. Of course, if you can provide a reasonably authoritative citation for your definition, I'd be happy to learn more about it.

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:10 am

TiLT wrote:To be clear, I would have been far less annoyed at this (but still annoyed) if they were holding back something like, say, a Lizardman army, or an undead army. Those are secondary to Warhammer Fantasy and could more easily be seen as a bonus. Chaos however is the main enemy of the Empire, and this game indeed takes place in that Empire.
...
Chaos in a Warhammer game is a good comparison to Germany in a WW2 game. They are the main enemy. Anything else is incidental distractions. Leaving them out is such an assholish thing to do that it leaves me flabbergasted.

I kind of have to disagree here. If you ask 100 different table top Warhammer fans what enemy is the "main enemy" or what army is indispensable, you would likely get a myriad of answers. I, for one, would prefer to have a Skaven army (and they are certainly an enemy of the Empire). The Vampire Counts (which are one of the armies in the game without DLC) are also a main enemy of the "living" factions (like the Dwarves and the Empire). Orcs and Goblins are also in and also main enemies of the forces of good. So not everyone would agree that Chaos is key. That would be like saying that Chaos was the key enemy in Warhammer 40K when Tyrannids, Necron, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and sometimes Tau all square off against the Empire.