Octopus Overlords

I don't think he was ever a sociopath. He genuinely cared for many people on the show. But he also was willing to let his ego justify either letting them get harmed, or harming them himself. He was able to convince himself that whatever he did was for the greater good...but that greater good was eventually defined in smaller and smaller scopes.

I always thought that Gus Fring was an image of what Walter could eventually become had he lived.

I would have to classify him as a sociopath based purely on the deaths of Jesse's girlfriend and the aforementioned kid. That would have weighed heavily on a normal person, as we saw with Jesse. Walter was able to roll with it with no problem at all.

Can we go back to criticizing all of Harley's awful tattoos? Yuck.

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:23 pm Sure, he tells her that at the end of the series, but I'm saying that the show didn't portray him as a bad guy from the start, as was done with Tony Soprano. Walter took pride in his ability to make the best meth around, but we had no idea that he would eventually not care about doing things like stuffing a child into a barrel of acid.

True, his pride and resentment of his former partners made him refuse offers to help. That wasn't really a clue that he was a sociopath though.

I mean, he chooses to enter the illegal and violent world of drug production and distribution (putting his life and the lives of his family at risk) instead of accepting an offer of help. And things get violent pretty quickly. He's a bad person at the start who gets worse over time.

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:27 pm I would have to classify him as a sociopath based purely on the deaths of Jesse's girlfriend and the aforementioned kid. That would have weighed heavily on a normal person, as we saw with Jesse. Walter was able to roll with it with no problem at all.

In all of those cases, White showed genuine remorse/expressed doubt about his actions. It just didn't stop him. A true sociopath kills then takes a nap.

Harley's unique in a couple of ways. First off, she doesn't come from the comics, at least not initially. She was created for Batman: The Animated Series to be the Joker's sidekick (not originally his girlfriend), so her personality was established in a medium that tried to be kid-friendly. By the time she made the jump to the comics, those aspects were already in place and stuck with her. Second, she wasn't a villain by choice, at least not exactly. She was a naive psychiatrist (Dr. Harleen Qunizel), and one of those people who are fascinated by serial killers. She fell in love with the Joker as his therapist and began to do his bidding. It usually comes across as she fell victim to his charisma in a cult leader sort of way, essentially being brainwashed. Later (plus in the films), she was his victim more literally and followed him in a sort of extreme form of Stockholm syndrome.

In either case she was presented as a victim (although her own bad choices put her in that position), which made her sympathetic. The Joker is usually portrayed as dismissive, if not outright abusive of her. A number of storylines, going all the way back to the Animated Series, deal with her realizing this and trying to break away from him with varying degrees of success. She's portrayed as one of those people who keeps rationalizing reasons to return to an abusive relationship. Plus, she's nuts. How much of that is nature and how much is the Joker's nurture is anyone's guess, but she doesn't have it all together upstairs. Yet Without the Joker's direct influence, she tends to be more of the anti-hero.

And then she runs back to the Joker and becomes a straight-up villain again.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:37 pm I mean, he chooses to enter the illegal and violent world of drug production and distribution (putting his life and the lives of his family at risk) instead of accepting an offer of help. And things get violent pretty quickly. He's a bad person at the start who gets worse over time.

True, but we can kind of sympathize with him. He's a man who doesn't seem to have many options (I'm talking about before his former partners offer to help). That doesn't make him a bad guy the likes of Soprano or Corleone. It doesn't make him Fred Rogers, granted, so I'll give you that.

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:39 pm A true sociopath kills then takes a nap.

How about kills and then whistles a tune after telling Jesse how it's going to be okay? Walter didn't look like he was going to lose a bit of sleep after they killed that kid. That scene was written to drive home that Walter was a sociopath with the contrast of Jesse being overcome with guilt and Walter whistling without a care.

And I have to mention again that Mike is a bad person. Now just accept that and move on.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:03 pm Harley's unique in a couple of ways. First off, she doesn't come from the comics, at least not initially. She was created for Batman: The Animated Series to be the Joker's sidekick (not originally his girlfriend), so her personality was established in a medium that tried to be kid-friendly. By the time she made the jump to the comics, those aspects were already in place and stuck with her.

Thanks. I did not know any of that.

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:03 pm And I have to mention again that Mike is a bad person. Now just accept that and move on.

He's a bad person, but he's not a sociopath. Like Walter White is a bad person, but not a sociopath.

Agree about Mike. Disagree about Walter.

Walter is a textbook narcissist. Get your mental disorders straight. Walter expressed regret and remorse for his actions that led to deaths numerous times over the course of the show. He loved his son, his wife, wanted his brother in law protected, saved Jesse's life more than once...none of these things point to sociopath.

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:45 pm I never thought Breaking Bad made that clear from the beginning. We thought he was just a guy willing to do something bad to help his family. I didn't realize he was a total sociopath until several seasons in. I held out hope for him.

I would say that we were clear on Tony Soprano from day 1 though.

I disagree, they went out of the way to show him either having horribly bad luck or getting screwed constantly. The entire Cancer thing for instance. It would get better for a minute and then woosh, hes on death's bed again. The startup he helped make, woosh he cashes out for 5k giving up future millions. Takes a second job at a car wash and of course he is washing his student's cars. The writers constantly pounded this theme in. Good or bad, great decision or poor decision the results were always the same for poor Walter. That's what made him easy to root for and sympathetic; he just couldn't ever catch a good break things were constantly Breaking the Bad way.

You're right. He is a narcissist. No question.

I've struggled with his character development a bit. It almost seems like he transitioned into a sociopath, and I don't think that's how it ever works. And maybe my memory of his reactions are a bit fuzzy, but I don't remember him having a normal person's reaction to killing Gil, disposing of the little boy, or poisoning Jesse's girlfriend's son. That went beyond narcissism and even survival. Doing those things would weigh on a normal person much more than it did on even a narcissist.

morlac wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:25 pm

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:45 pm I never thought Breaking Bad made that clear from the beginning. We thought he was just a guy willing to do something bad to help his family. I didn't realize he was a total sociopath until several seasons in. I held out hope for him.

I would say that we were clear on Tony Soprano from day 1 though.

I disagree, they went out of the way to show him either having horribly bad luck or getting screwed constantly. The entire Cancer thing for instance. It would get better for a minute and then woosh, hes on death's bed again. The startup he helped make, woosh he cashes out for 5k giving up future millions. Takes a second job at a car wash and of course he is washing his student's cars. The writers constantly pounded this theme in. Good or bad, great decision or poor decision the results were always the same for poor Walter. That's what made him easy to root for and sympathetic; he just couldn't ever catch a good break things were constantly Breaking the Bad way.

I'm not sure what you disagree with. I agree that he couldn't catch a break, but I'm saying that it wasn't clear that he was a totally bad person from the start. He might have been a good person who made a bad choice. Then his choices got more bad.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:30 pm Can we go back to criticizing all of Harley's awful tattoos? Yuck.

I thought the trailer was shit and I have no desire to see it. I'd happily be wrong if it turns out great but I'm not

It's like nipples on the bat suit.

The only thing that makes me think Suicide Squad II is going to work is James Gunn. Birds of Prey doesn't have a James Gunn. It has a director with a VERY short list of achievements. None of which make me think she can handle this type of film. However, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:27 pm

morlac wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:25 pm

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:45 pm I never thought Breaking Bad made that clear from the beginning. We thought he was just a guy willing to do something bad to help his family. I didn't realize he was a total sociopath until several seasons in. I held out hope for him.

I would say that we were clear on Tony Soprano from day 1 though.

I disagree, they went out of the way to show him either having horribly bad luck or getting screwed constantly. The entire Cancer thing for instance. It would get better for a minute and then woosh, hes on death's bed again. The startup he helped make, woosh he cashes out for 5k giving up future millions. Takes a second job at a car wash and of course he is washing his student's cars. The writers constantly pounded this theme in. Good or bad, great decision or poor decision the results were always the same for poor Walter. That's what made him easy to root for and sympathetic; he just couldn't ever catch a good break things were constantly Breaking the Bad way.

I'm not sure what you disagree with. I agree that he couldn't catch a break, but I'm saying that it wasn't clear that he was a totally bad person from the start. He might have been a good person who made a bad choice. Then his choices got more bad.

sorry, I was agreeing with you and not El Guapo.

That looks pretty awesome, and I'm not even a comicbookmovie guy.

morlac wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:30 pm

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:27 pm

morlac wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:25 pm

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:45 pm I never thought Breaking Bad made that clear from the beginning. We thought he was just a guy willing to do something bad to help his family. I didn't realize he was a total sociopath until several seasons in. I held out hope for him.

I would say that we were clear on Tony Soprano from day 1 though.

I disagree, they went out of the way to show him either having horribly bad luck or getting screwed constantly. The entire Cancer thing for instance. It would get better for a minute and then woosh, hes on death's bed again. The startup he helped make, woosh he cashes out for 5k giving up future millions. Takes a second job at a car wash and of course he is washing his student's cars. The writers constantly pounded this theme in. Good or bad, great decision or poor decision the results were always the same for poor Walter. That's what made him easy to root for and sympathetic; he just couldn't ever catch a good break things were constantly Breaking the Bad way.

I'm not sure what you disagree with. I agree that he couldn't catch a break, but I'm saying that it wasn't clear that he was a totally bad person from the start. He might have been a good person who made a bad choice. Then his choices got more bad.

sorry, I was agreeing with you and not El Guapo.

But he almost always, if not always, let his ego get in the way. Get cancer treatment paid for? Nope rather cook meth. He had a good thing with Gus which he let his ego destroy. Walter's ego caused many of his "bad breaks". Another theme that i think is present is that everyone needs something to bring them to be fully alive...as Walter acknowledges in the final episode. That he became Heisenberg and thrived was just evidence that that energy and drive was in him dormant but there.....no if he had turned that into something good....well that is a true "what if". You could also view the Walter White journey as a dark version of Joseph Campbell's The Heroes Journey. You can also view WW as the never-ending pull of yin and yang as happened to him throughout the series.

Just my 2 cents

Jaddison wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:26 pm

morlac wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:30 pm

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:27 pm

morlac wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:25 pm

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:45 pm I never thought Breaking Bad made that clear from the beginning. We thought he was just a guy willing to do something bad to help his family. I didn't realize he was a total sociopath until several seasons in. I held out hope for him.

I would say that we were clear on Tony Soprano from day 1 though.

I disagree, they went out of the way to show him either having horribly bad luck or getting screwed constantly. The entire Cancer thing for instance. It would get better for a minute and then woosh, hes on death's bed again. The startup he helped make, woosh he cashes out for 5k giving up future millions. Takes a second job at a car wash and of course he is washing his student's cars. The writers constantly pounded this theme in. Good or bad, great decision or poor decision the results were always the same for poor Walter. That's what made him easy to root for and sympathetic; he just couldn't ever catch a good break things were constantly Breaking the Bad way.

I'm not sure what you disagree with. I agree that he couldn't catch a break, but I'm saying that it wasn't clear that he was a totally bad person from the start. He might have been a good person who made a bad choice. Then his choices got more bad.

sorry, I was agreeing with you and not El Guapo.

But he almost always, if not always, let his ego get in the way. Get cancer treatment paid for? Nope rather cook meth. He had a good thing with Gus which he let his ego destroy. Walter's ego caused many of his "bad breaks". Another theme that i think is present is that everyone needs something to bring them to be fully alive...as Walter acknowledges in the final episode. That he became Heisenberg and thrived was just evidence that that energy and drive was in him dormant but there.....no if he had turned that into something good....well that is a true "what if". You could also view the Walter White journey as a dark version of Joseph Campbell's The Heroes Journey. You can also view WW as the never-ending pull of yin and yang as happened to him throughout the series.

Just my 2 cents

I agree that ego and pride were Walter White's ultimate downfall in a lot of ways. I'm saying that that ego and pride, increasingly mixed with a lust for power (to be a "powerful man") were there from the beginning (although they for sure got worse over time).

In particular, it's definitely not true that Walter got involved in meth out of a desire to help his family. His quasi-friends former business associates offered to pay for his treatment in full. Because of that, he did not have to sell meth in order to pay for his cancer treatment and save his family from bankruptcy. He declined the friends' offer and sold meth instead because of his pride - *he* needed to be the provider.

Pride doesn't put food on the table.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:35 pm Pride doesn't put food on the table.

No, but Walt and Skylar's salaries do, once their friends' money is paying all of his medical bills.

Who's playing Walter White in the Birds of Prey film?

WALLY T!!!!... Wait WALLY W!!!!!

hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:06 pm Who's playing Walter White in the Birds of Prey film?

Badger. plus Harley Quinn uses Jimmy McGill as her lawyer

Holy cow - this is getting good reviews! I guess I'll be catching it this weekend (rather than waiting for a Netflix type release).

The animated series on DC Universe has turned out to be a fantastic show. Who knew. I initially thought it would suck, but after the first episode, it just got better and better. I hope the movie captures some of that same wicked humor.

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:27 pm The animated series on DC Universe has turned out to be a fantastic show. Who knew. I initially thought it would suck, but after the first episode, it just got better and better. I hope the movie captures some of that same wicked humor.

100% agree on that. I love the way they’ve treated all the characters. I never stop laughing at Bane.

I honestly thought it was just going to be a cheap Deadpool rip-off after the first episode. But then it had to go and get all subversive and witty on me.

And yes, I could listen to Bane demand “splosions” all day long. I love that they kept his Dark Knight Rises voice for this.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:23 pm Holy cow - this is getting good reviews! I guess I'll be catching it this weekend (rather than waiting for a Netflix type release).

I just got back from seeing it. I had fun. I wouldn't call it groundbreaking, but it's certainly worth a watch. I wish it was a little more Joker (the film, not the character) and a little less action movie. There is serious potential depth in Harley and it is touched on, but only the surface.

We just got back as well.

I have two problems with it that I think held it back from greatness for me:

- It tries to straddle the typical DC dark n' gritty tone and Harley Quinn's completely over the top comic book-y tone, and I'm not sure it quite pulls off the juggling act. For me, I felt like I was simultaneously watching a mashup of Zack Snyder, the animated series, and a couple of episodes of Gotham.

- I wish they had just made a Harley Quinn movie, instead of mixing in the Birds of Prey stuff. They're never really developed enough to be interesting, and their inclusion takes away from the stuff they could have done with Harley Quinn herself. She's already a side character (albeit a great one), so mixing more side characters in with her just dilutes her role even more.

That said, I still had a good time and it's certainly a *unique* DC film. At this point, you can't accuse them of ripping off the Marvel formula, and maybe that's where they need to just focus their efforts. Making these weird little unique superhero/supervillain films that defy expectations. I don't think I'd have a problem with that.

Final rating, good but not great. RT gives it 82% currently, I'd be more in line with a 75%.

I'm looking forward to seeing it, but I'm a little nervous about how they handle Orphan. She's one of my favorites from the comics, and what I've seen so far from previews looks like a huge departure.

hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:09 pm I think Walter White did start as a genuinely good character...from what we were shown. But as time went on, we got to see what was really going on in his head. I suspect he always Heisenberg, he just kept it in check.

Also, fun fact: Harley isn't actually from the comics. She moved there eventually, sure. But she was an invention of the great Batman: The Animated Series.

I loved the show, but it was his sin of pride that doomed him. All he had to do was take the job with his old college buddy and get the medical treatment he needed. In stead he choose to hurt others to save face.

Sounds like the movie isn't doing well at the box office. I thought the trailer looked good but doubt I will see this in the theater.

Oof, that ain’t too good.

Anecdotally, there were 6 people in our theater including my wife and I. On a Friday night 7:00pm showing.

Maybe it will pick up at the box office on word of mouth? Didn't The Dark Knight actually surge in its post premiere weeks after Heath Ledger started getting almost universal acclaim for his performance?