Octopus Overlords

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:45 pm Change. I can't emphasize this enough. Those aren't the reasons she gives, but it's the source. Ok, hang on a second, let me ask her directly. I'll come back with the answers I receive as given. Actually, let me save that for a new post. But to be clear, my wife is not making decisions based on the mechanics of it. All cars are a black box to her. Or near enough. You would think this would be an argument for change because she won't understand what's under the hood anyway, but no.

Yes, range is a factor, and quite frankly I agree it's a concern (not a roadblock, necessarily). While it's true that we almost never drive for long periods of time, we CAN if we want to. And we have, on occasion. Having to worry about a shorter range and making it to a charger is a real problem, especially in Canada where population density is less and infrastructure isn't in place yet.

I hear you. (Although your 'we almost never do X, but our car must absolutely do X!' sounds quite American to me. ). I still don't exactly follow, because practically it's going to be the same to her, only more fun in a BEV. The mechanics are the same from the driver's perspective. It's not like you need to learn stick to drive a BEV.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:43 am So the Y is too small in your estimation?

I'm trying to stay away from Tesla. So I haven't really looked at them. I realize they are almost in a league by themselves, but everyone else isn't so far behind as for it to be a problem for me. Chances are, yes, it's going to be too small, because ALL EV's are too small, on average. This isn't the EV's fault, this is part of making EV's viable. I will take a look at the Y. Just took a quick look. That is the smallest looking mid-sized SUV I've ever seen. Of course this is visual impression, but I haven't looked at the numbers, and somehow they've managed to wedge a 3rd row in there, which seems almost impossible when looking at the exterior. I will look closer soon, but I am resistant, because Tesla.

I understand the aversion to the brand if that's where you're coming from. The size, less so. Cargo volume is higher in the Y, slightly, than the Sorento PHEV. First/second row headroom/legroom also higher. Shoulder room the Sorento wins. But the point that confused me is that these cars are exactly the same class, and the Sorento isn't bigger by the measures that typically matter most. I am totally with you that the 3rd row in the Y is a joke and shouldn't be purchased unless you have very specific reasons. The Y is also spot-on equal with the Sorento on price (at least in the US) and will be cheaper to own in the long run.

I still don't understand how driving a PHEV for 5 years on mostly electric then ICE til end of life is worse than just ICE, and I don't think you're going to be able to convince me. Yes, I understand that driving a PHEV as ICE only is a problem, but we got 4-5 years of cleanish driving first.

The emissions costs from adding the battery and motors are not insignificant, nor is the added weight for the life of the car, and then disposal/recycling. On a BEV these are offset by the fact that for 100% of its life, it will be emitting far less than ICE. On a PHEV, that is not guaranteed, and unless you guarantee it, it's unlikely to come out ahead. Because most people, most of the time, don't plug em in.

We don't have a garage or a carport, but we do have an regular outlet on that side of the exterior. With a PHEV I don't have to get any electrical work done. It's certainly not a primary consideration, but it's a small perk. If you're saying that regular weather prevents any charging or risks damage, then yeah, I guess I'm out of the EV market after all. My earliest research showed that it wasn't ideal but not a roadblock. Hah. With the price of real estate, requiring a separate house for your car before you can buy an EV prices a LOT of people out of the market. I realize that's not what you're saying. Or at least I hope not.

Now I'm following a bit better. I thought you did have a garage and were planning to put a charger in. It's absolutely true that on a regular outlet, you'll be able to fully fill the PHEV overnight but you would not fully fill a BEV. That said, on your mileage, a regular outlet would likely suffice, either way, so long as you can plug it in most nights.

Of course regular weather isn't a concern as far as being able to charge, although on a regular outlet you will charge more slowly since the power level going in is low.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:43 am In what way?

In many ways. Size. Variety of makes and models and colours. Price. Availability.

Size, price, and availability aren't concerns in the specific comparison you're making (since at least the Y is similar in size and price, and is available). Which is why I was getting confused. But in the broader market, and if you specifically are wanting to avoid Tesla, then I see where you're coming from. I hadn't grokked the avoid-Tesla bias going on until your last post.

BMW, Toyota, Audi, Honda, Volvo etc etc. Yes they all have offerings, mostly, but many are just dipping their toe in right now, so they can point and say "see? We offer EV's too!".

Fully agreed, other than Volvo. They are faaarrrr ahead of the other brands you listed in this department.

it helps that PHEVs qualify for government grants up here (I think I saw that they don't in the US?).

They mostly do.

In any case, I'll look at the Y more closely and other mid-sized too. I'm not even remotely close to a decision yet, but I am closer than when I first posted in this thread. Let me ask those questions to my wife...

You might consider the Mustang Mach-e, as well, if you want to avoid the Y. One of our resident owners can chime in, but I believe it's pretty comparable to the Y in size, and at least in the States it's probably the closest to Tesla availability.

Thanks for humoring me--I certainly understand your position better now!

OK! Good news! I don't understand my wife at all (absolutely true. We are a poor match, personality-wise) and according to her she's always been open to a smaller SUV EV and she doesn't understand what I'm talking about.

Honestly, my entire marriage has been exactly like this. I'd laugh if it wasn't so frustrating. I have learned to be A LOT more patient than when I was younger. So has she, I think. Sigh.

So, off I go to find an appropriate EV that will mostly work. While she said she would accept a smallish SUV, I don't believe her for a second. We might still end up with a compact SUV, but only if it has some optical wizardry that gives the impression of space.

So I'm going throw away all my research into PHEVs, and start looking at EV's again. I wonder if they are longer, shorter, or the same wait times?

edit: I'm not going to respond to your previous post, but I did read it and appreciate the feedback.

Ironically, she can drive stick! And she's not bad at it either! Not awesome, but her driving is about equivalent between auto and stick.

Freyland and I had a long conversation about his mustang E. I think my wife has decided that sedans are not an option. Who knows?!

re: Y. My sentences weren't clear, but the idea was that I expected the Y to be too small, and the pictures of it make it look too small, but it's a mid-sized SUV with 3 rows of seating, but I couldn't reconcile it. Which basically meant I need to do more than a cursory glance, which I will do eventually.

Just to be extra clear, the new criteria is full EV, with as much space as possible for the least amount possible for the best overall rating possible. Omg, this is a chore.

FWIW, the Model Y and Mach E have the same cargo space (I think it is within 0.1 cu ft.).

The 3rd row seat in the Model Y makes it so there is no trunk storage (when installed).

I know Mach E's are sitting on lots south of your border. I think Model Ys are equally available.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 1:57 pm FWIW, the Model Y and Mach E have the same cargo space (I think it is within 0.1 cu ft.).

Thanks for confirming--I knew they were close but not that close.

The 3rd row seat in the Model Y makes it so there is no trunk storage (when installed).

It folds, so little impact when folded. But since I think it has little impact (to passenger capacity) when raised, I'd skip it. I'm on a local Tesla Facebook group here with a few thousand members, and I can't recall seeing more than a couple people have a Y with a 3rd row, and actually use the 3rd row a lot. They're all families with kids that are out of car seats but still little.

I know Mach E's are sitting on lots south of your border. I think Model Ys are equally available.

This thread could really use an AAR of GG and his wife test-driving these two, and maybe a Volvo XC40 Recharge. Although I think the Volvo will be a bit pricier and a bit smaller. Still a slick car, IMO.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:48 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 1:57 pm FWIW, the Model Y and Mach E have the same cargo space (I think it is within 0.1 cu ft.).

Thanks for confirming--I knew they were close but not that close.

I was off a bit.

Mach E - 29.7 ft3 (59.7 ft3 if you lay down the seats) + 4.7 ft3 in the frunk
Model Y - 30.2 ft 3 (72.1 ft3 if you lay down the seats) + 4.1 ft3 in the frunk

So 0.5 ft3 difference if carrying passengers.

Wow, didn't realize they were that far off when not carrying passengers, either. I wonder why the Mach-e loses so much there.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:54 pm Wow, didn't realize they were that far off when not carrying passengers, either. I wonder why the Mach-e loses so much there.

Yeah, it's kinda weird. I didn't think the Model Y was that much taller than the Mach E, but maybe the egg shape has it's benefits!

Does the Y have a drain in the frunk? That is still the favorite party trick of the Mach E when we show it off.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:56 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:54 pm Wow, didn't realize they were that far off when not carrying passengers, either. I wonder why the Mach-e loses so much there.

Yeah, it's kinda weird. I didn't think the Model Y was that much taller than the Mach E, but maybe the egg shape has it's benefits!

Does the Y have a drain in the frunk? That is still the favorite party trick of the Mach E when we show it off.

I'm not 100% sure, but neither our 3 nor X do, and I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little jealous of that idea. That, and of an actual 120V outlet somewhere in the car (why, Tesla, why!!?).

Interestingly, they are the same height - both 64"!

I think it might be the styling - the Mach E has a lot of hood in front of the driver compared to the Y (my impression - I can't find actual measurements).

All these are in inches:

Overall length
Mach E - 185.6
Model Y - 187.0

Headroom - front - rear
Mach E - 38.9 - 38.2
Model Y - 41.0 - 39.4

Leg room - front - rear
Mach E - 43.3 - 38.1
Model Y - 41.8 - 40.5

Front Room - hip - shoulder
Mach E - 57.6 - 55.4
Model Y - 56.4 - 53.8

Rear Room - hip - shoulder
Mach E - 55.9 - 53.2
Model Y - 54.0 - 50.6

I really have no idea where they are hiding an extra 30 ft3.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:04 pm I really have no idea where they are hiding an extra 30 ft3.

12 ft3, right? Still, your point stands.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:08 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:04 pm I really have no idea where they are hiding an extra 30 ft3.

12 ft3, right? Still, your point stands.

Yeah.

This CleanTechnica article shows there is more space from the back of the front seat to the trunk lip AND the Model Y has more under trunk storage - that must be it.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 1:57 pm
The 3rd row seat in the Model Y makes it so there is no trunk storage (when installed).

Wait. Literally none?!

Also, numbers are of limited value to me. Our old accord had a lot of trunk space, except it was very low and deep and below the rear window. Was like trying to pull things out of a hole in the ground, on an angle. I mean, they are a reference point, but both my wife and I will have to witness it ourselves.

What's the drain for?

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:05 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 1:57 pm
The 3rd row seat in the Model Y makes it so there is no trunk storage (when installed).

Wait. Literally none?!

Also, numbers are of limited value to me. Our old accord had a lot of trunk space, except it was very low and deep and below the rear window. Was like trying to pull things out of a hole in the ground, on an angle. I mean, they are a reference point, but both my wife and I will have to witness it ourselves.

What's the drain for?

Don't forget that you still have the front trunk - since there is no engine. So even if you remove the storage in the back, you do still have storage.

I don't know how different it is in the Y, but on the 3, the frunk is so small as to be nearly useless and has no external release mechanism. You either have to use the app or the screen in the car, neither of which is convenient when carrying something you want to put in there. It is more a curiosity than of any value to me.

Oh. Gotcha. And noted. If that remains true, it definitely sounds like the Y would be a hard sell for GG's wife.

We use it all the time, mostly for food so we don't stink up the car. But we also keep blanket/towel/umbrella, that sort of thing in there so it's not cluttering up the car.

The drain is so you can use the frunk as a cooler while tailgating. Just pour the ice in, and drain it when done.

And no, the Y isn't reduced to no trunk space when it has a 3rd row, as I mentioned earlier. It is small, if you have the 3rd row and it's folded up for use, though. At the end of the day, it's a 3rd row in a relatively small/medium SUV. Even in the X (or the Volvo XC90, for example), a large SUV, the behind-the-third-row storage is reduced when the 3rd row is up.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:14 pm Even in the X (or the Volvo XC90, for example), a large SUV, the behind-the-third-row storage is reduced when the 3rd row is up.

Well, I think that's a given in most cars, but many allow you to fold down the seats to increase storage space over passenger space. My Odyssey allows me to do this practically on the fly, as the seats fold into the bottom of the interior. I'm not holding out hope any EV's have that feature. I assume most would require manually removing and installing the third row bench/seats if you want that storage space.

Well, we'll just have to see. I'm trying to get my wife to join me when I go to the kia dealership this weekend. Not sure where you buy a Tesla in Ottawa. I guess I should probably look into that.

Find us.

Note I am just here so people don't think all Tesla owners are fanatics like Zaxxon!

Yes, I bought another Tesla, but only because nothing else compared on the price/performance chart. Others are getting closer, but they are still too slow or too expensive, or both. Also, I have NACS in my garage so it's easier if my car complies and that really limits options currently.

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:19 pm Note I am just here so people don't think all Tesla owners are fanatics like Zaxxon!

Yes, I bought another Tesla, but only because nothing else compared on the price/performance chart. Others are getting closer, but they are still too slow or too expensive, or both. Also, I have NACS in my garage so it's easier if my car complies and that really limits options currently.

Hard as it may be to believe, I will also consider other brands in the future, as I have each time in the past.

If I buy a Tesla, I will probably look into a Tesla Wall as well. I wonder if they can be installed in a basement. I also wonder if I can install the charger in the basement and charge the car through an opening in the wall. Like an extension cord/hose that retracts into a receptacle when not in use, connected to the basement. I feel like that shouldn't be too difficult, but I have no idea at the moment.

Performance as coop defines it is not very important to us. Almost irrelevant, assuming passing acceleration isn't *too* weak.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:23 pm If I buy a Tesla, I will probably look into a Tesla Wall as well. I wonder if they can be installed in a basement. I also wonder if I can install the charger in the basement and charge the car through an opening in the wall. Like an extension cord/hose that retracts into a receptacle when not in use, connected to the basement. I feel like that shouldn't be too difficult, but I have no idea at the moment.

For the Tesla wall connector, and most others, the plug is designed to hang on the connector housing when not in use, but you can find cheap holsters online for both NACS and J1772 that you could mount outside while the charger is on the other side of a wall. I'm not sure how code would treat a charger installed indoors, but there's no technical reason you couldn't do it with any of these chargers.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:19 pm Find us.

Hilarious. 3 red dots on the map. 1 is a supercharger. 1 is a service center. 1 is a store and/or gallery.

Ottawa sucks. I have definitely seen other charging stations around the city, but not sure what their compatibility is.

edit: Sorry, 4 red dots. 2 are super chargers.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:27 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:19 pm Find us.

Hilarious. 3 red dots on the map. 1 is a supercharger. 1 is a service center. 1 is a store and/or gallery.

Ottawa sucks. I have definitely seen other charging stations around the city, but not sure what their compatibility is.

For any EV/PHEV, the main thing you'll see (by plug volume) is level 2, which will be either J1772 or NACS (formerly Tesla). Teslas will work with either, and everyone else will work with J1772 (and most of them will soon also work with NACS). I would recommend getting the Plugshare app, as it makes it dead simple both to see what works with a particular vehicle, and how well-rated particular charging locations are.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:23 pm Performance as coop defines it is not very important to us. Almost irrelevant, assuming passing acceleration isn't *too* weak.

Yeah, any BEV is going to be surprisingly quick when compared to any ICE that isn't a sports/performance model, so not really a necessary consideration for your needs.

Fuck. EV9 wait times are insane. Sold out across the country.

I'm going to take a break for today. Back at it tomorrow.

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:33 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:23 pm Performance as coop defines it is not very important to us. Almost irrelevant, assuming passing acceleration isn't *too* weak.

Yeah, any BEV is going to be surprisingly quick when compared to any ICE that isn't a sports/performance model, so not really a necessary consideration for your needs.

I figured, but I don't know how they perform at speed. Obviously they accelerate insanely fast from a standing start.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:38 pm

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:33 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:23 pm Performance as coop defines it is not very important to us. Almost irrelevant, assuming passing acceleration isn't *too* weak.

Yeah, any BEV is going to be surprisingly quick when compared to any ICE that isn't a sports/performance model, so not really a necessary consideration for your needs.

I figured, but I don't know how they perform at speed. Obviously they accelerate insanely fast from a standing start.

The power is there at any speed. Cruising at 100 Canadian Speed Units and flooring it produces the same result as from a standstill. It's fun.

I think it feels even funner at speed, because you’re not having to overcome the initial resistance to moving forward, but power’s the same.

stessier wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:34 am The power is there at any speed. Cruising at 100 Canadian Speed Units and flooring it produces the same result as from a standstill. It's fun.

I suppose I understood that from the physics of electric motors, but I don't really know where cars top out at, and I don't fully understand how EVs (or more especially PHEVs) are rated in terms of horsepower etc.

In any case, thank you for easing my concerns.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 6:59 am I think it feels even funner at speed, because you’re not having to overcome the initial resistance to moving forward, but power’s the same.

I'm all about funner.

Ok, not really, but I'm not going to say no to it. Funner is fun. But moreso.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:56 am

stessier wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 3:34 am The power is there at any speed. Cruising at 100 Canadian Speed Units and flooring it produces the same result as from a standstill. It's fun.

I suppose I understood that from the physics of electric motors, but I don't really know where cars top out at, and I don't fully understand how EVs (or more especially PHEVs) are rated in terms of horsepower etc.

In any case, thank you for easing my concerns.

I was kind of curious and tested it out this morning. I was cruising at 50 mph (~80 CSU) on a long, flat, straight road near work. My motor was flipping between 12-15 kW. It's a 150 kW motor. Flooring it got me over 65 mph in the blink of an eye and before I got to the full 150 kW output (I saw 120 kW).

Doing this test in a performance Tesla is supposed to be incredibly fun.

Nice. Now I'm worried it will take my wife too long to adjust and bad things are going to happen in the meantime. Hell, I'm mildly concerned about myself.

But I'm excited. Funner!

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:07 am Nice. Now I'm worried it will take my wife too long to adjust and bad things are going to happen in the meantime. Hell, I'm mildly concerned about myself.

But I'm excited. Funner!

Hah. I know on the Tesla side, at least, there's a user preference that you can set called 'chill' mode, which dials back the instant oomph. I don't use it as I've found it pretty easy to control once you get used to the pedal doing exactly what you command it to, immediately (unlike any ICE car due to their nature). But I've heard of lots of folks who do use it. Other manufacturers have something similar (eg Rivian has different drive modes, and I believe the Mustang does, as well).

Honestly, though, I think if you can get your wife into some test drives, she'll find it easier to transition to a BEV than you think. It's hard to describe, but as I mentioned above--they do exactly what you tell them to, immediately. Both on accelerating and decelerating. Which IMHO makes them easier to drive, not harder. I know back when we had a Leaf and a Volvo PHEV, moving back into the Volvo was jarring because you're still dealing with an ICE engine some of the time, and that leads to lurches when the transmission changes gears, delays as RPMs ramp up, etc. And the Volvo was an amazing car and incredibly smooth relative to other prior ICEs I've had (like our old Camry SE or Olds Intrigue)!

It's something I never thought about before I started driving BEVs, because it's just 'how things have always been,' but it actually takes much more nuance to drive an ICE vehicle than it takes for a BEV, and that nuance is slightly different for each ICE vehicle.

It's easy to latch onto all the obvious changes when driving an electric car (you have to plug in, there may be no start button, there's regenerative braking, etc). But those are pretty easy to take in (especially when you get to eliminate things that no one likes, like gassing up and oil changes). And you don't really think about how BEVs are easier to drive until you're actually driving one.

I don't think it's going to be more difficult, just different. A lifetime of ICE driving gets pretty ingrained.

It's nice to have foreknowledge of what to expect. I would hope that will make things easier. Less surprises.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 11:24 am I don't think it's going to be more difficult, just different. A lifetime of ICE driving gets pretty ingrained.

It's nice to have foreknowledge of what to expect. I would hope that will make things easier. Less surprises.

My brother visited this summer and test drove my Bolt and Bolt EUV for the first time (thinking he wanted one). In the first minute he declared one pedal driving to be horrible. I told him my daughter who is just learning to drive, took about ten minutes to get used to it and to give it at least that long. At the tent minute mark he thought it had potential. When we got back at the 20 minute mark, he thought the whole experience was great and was checking out dealerships.

Everyone is different if course, but it doesn't have to take a long time to adapt.

I surprised myself with how quickly I adapted to one pedal driving. When I first got the Tesla, it wouldn't make a complete stop so around 5mph I had to use the brakes. With a software update (I love those updates), they added the ability to come to a stop by simply lifting off the accelerator. Now, it's like a game to see how close I can get to the stop line as smooth as possible.

I had to drive the wife's Honda to get service this morning and I had to remember to use the brakes.

I don't know what 1 pedal driving is.



I should probably find out.

Also saw that the EV9 has a starting price of around $55,000 in the US. With addons, it's beyond what I can justify for a car. Which is ok I guess, since I might be retired or dead before one becomes available up here.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 12:02 pm I don't know what 1 pedal driving is.



I should probably find out.

Pretty much what is sounds like. If you touch the brake pedal you have failed! With regen braking in any EV, you have the ability to slow down as if you were braking by reducing pressure on the accelerator. The more you let off the more quickly you slow down. I know that kind of sounds like an ICE car but the effect is far more pronounced on cars with bigger batteries that can handle more energy coming back. Once you get used to it, your passengers won't even know it's happening except that you might approach stop lights and signs more slowly. The more you use it the more efficient your car will be.

Now Zaxxon, stessier and malchior can all come correct my words.