Protests 2024 - Stop Hey What's That Sound...

[Victoria Raverna]

This from over a week ago, police arrested Jewish protestors that support Gaza Palestinians:

[hepcat]

(Now I know how everyone else feels when Hepcat and I go at it!)

Those are usually because I forget my place.

[Exodor]

I'll just point out that the Post Millennial youtube account is very clearly a right wing propaganda account making it's money by re-contextualizing everything into an anti-left wing, often anti-youth joke they use to mock.

I don't click Twitter links so I didn't realize we're getting people linking The Post Millennial?

They're about as reliable as the Enquirer.

[Zarathud]

I'm repeatedly try to show you that both sides are wrong.

This is the biggest Bullshit you’ve tried. You do nothing but minimize the wrongs of Hamas and Palestinian supporters.

[hepcat]

They're about as reliable as the Enquirer.

You need to stop! Bat Boy is REAL!

[Montag]

1st admendment has scope and limitations. It does not let you camp out and build structures without permissions.

The demonstrations should not be allowed to interfere with the normal operations of the univerisites. Those who do viloate the codes of conduct and are distruptive should be suspended or expelled. WITH.. the caveat that this should not applied without explicit evidence on each individual and not roll up those who had cursorary involvement. This must be a high threshold. See Google's recen firings where it seems some employees were fired for merely being in the wrong place at the wrong time or were merely curious of what was going on.

The targets of the protests - companies and instutions in Israel may actually be opposed to the assualt on Gaza. There have been a crap ton of protests in Israel against the government.

[Blackhawk]

(Now I know how everyone else feels when Hepcat and I go at it!)

Those are usually because I forget my place.

Or because people post multiple exchanges overlapping each other and we end up arguing about comments intended for someone else entirely.

[Carpet_pissr]

It does not let you camp out and build structures

Something about beer holding and Fortnite.

[GreenGoo]

Protests without civil disobedience are unlikely to produce results. And certainly not quick results, which is probably what you want if you're trying to stop people dying *today*.

So I don't really care if protestors don't stick within their rights, because people staying within their rights are more easily ignored, and society should be paying attention.

And I think campuses are all but designed to be a safe space to explore non-mainstream thought and mild civil disobedience.

Disruption is ok. I support disruption. I don't support wide spread property damage, assault or intimidation, or preventing others from getting the education they are there for.

as an aside, I read that a cop's gun went off inside a building. There were no details except that no protestors were nearby and it wasn't due to conflict, which I interpreted as "it went off by accident". Which is yet another scary thing about calling the cops. People have a disturbing habit of unintentionally dying around cops. Weird.

[YellowKing]

As an older friend of mine said last night, "Why's everyone so upset over protests on college campuses....we did that all the time in the 60s!"

[hepcat]

(Now I know how everyone else feels when Hepcat and I go at it!)

Those are usually because I forget my place.

Or because people post multiple exchanges overlapping each other and we end up arguing about comments intended for someone else entirely.

I forgot my place again, didn't I?

[Grifman]

Interesting:

[Pyperkub]

Interesting:

Not really. Unless you are interested in history repeating itself. Otherwise it's just expected.

[El Guapo]

Interesting:

Not really. Unless you are interested in history repeating itself. Otherwise it's just expected.

That's a bizarre comparison. I assume Grifman is interested in the contemporaneous views of the responses to the protests, not whether the protestors are correct, which I think (???) you are getting at?

[LordMortis]

Glad they put a 'not sure' there because that's me. I sure don't know enough about what's going on to have an informed opinion and I suspect I know a lot more than a slightly more informed than average American. Of course I have OO and I still watch CNBC (I really need to find and utilize a better source, but I'm old), which makes it their featured "These violent antisemitic activists and their hate filled liberal college administration and professors must be crushed and replaced at all costs" story every morning, since it was photograph-able evidence to back their derision toward DEI.

[ImLawBoy]

I think it's a valid comparison. Contemporary polling about these types of protests (and the responses to them) typically show the protests to be unpopular and crackdowns to be popular. As time goes on, those positions tend to shift. I saw one poll taken the day after Kent State showed a majority (something like 57%) sided with the National Guard!

[Grifman]

Protests without civil disobedience are unlikely to produce results. And certainly not quick results, which is probably what you want if you're trying to stop people dying *today*.

I think you are right, sort of. Civil disobedience works if it actually highlights the actual injustice. It worked for civil rights because African Americans would go to places they weren’t allowed - whites only areas/institutions and get arrested for being there. That highlighted the obvious inequality and brought it to the forefront. I also think that most Americans (though not a majority of Southerners) probably opposed segregation or were at least initially indifferent and were moved by the protests. Civil rights activists were also very disciplined with their message, asking for the white community to accept their equality, but generally not attacking whites.

But camping out or occupying a university building or blocking highways (as some protests have done) have no direct connection to the war in Gaza. And their message has seemed muddled at best, and at worst veering off into attacking Jews, which really hurts their messaging. Yes, most Americans now disapprove of Israel’s actions, but I don’t see that these protests will have the impact that students hope they will, as seen by the poll I posted above.

[ImLawBoy]

It's also interesting to note that a number of schools (among them Brown University and UC Irvine) have been able to end the encampments not by calling in the police, but by engaging with the protestors and negotiating outcomes.

If you wanted to ensure the protests got bigger and more confrontational, the best move would have been to call in the police to crack down. That's not going to calm tensions - it's going to get other students throughout the country riled up.

[LordMortis]

It's hard to say. We seem to have largely turned off both Ukraine and Palestine. Oddly enough, protests are taking a spotlight daily yet Palestine still stays largely out of the news, except for MTG talking about booting Johnson over budgeting.

edit that's in response to Griff, not ILB.

[Holman]

Today's protests pretty are pretty closely following the playbook of the 1980s anti-Apartheid protests. These worked, and they are the reason we recognize the word "divestment" today.

The key difference is that there were really no pro-Apartheid groups pushing back, although Pretoria had plenty of support in Congress, the White House, and the conservative press. (If you time traveled back to 1986 and asked the average American to describe Nelson Mandela, those who knew his name would most likely call him a commie terrorist.)

[GreenGoo]

I will say the media completely controls the narrative, not the protestors or the campus administration.

Protests are often driven by emotions, not a well thought out plan to instigate change. If the media is sympathetic to those emotions? Great. Otherwise, everyone's a looter treading on other peoples' rights.

[Holman]

Are they actually trying to pass this off as a how-to guide?

If nothing else, don't they know we all have Amazon?

[Isgrimnur]

Were any of them playing The Sims?

[Isgrimnur]

Oh, also, that was an appearance on NewsMax.

[waitingtoconnect]

We need to get back to the 189s Prussian or British education system. Perfect for the new trump empire to come where people are taught to be deferrent to their betters, never question and to walk not run when marching with their peers into enemy machine gun fire.

Personally I’m sick of these college students. My taxes are paying for discussion on if their overinflated tuition loans should be forgiven!

[Holman]

Were any of them playing The Sims?

I understood that reference.

[Holman]

Are they actually trying to pass this off as a how-to guide?

If nothing else, don't they know we all have Amazon?

Holy shit, It also appears that the large-size book that cop is holding is a blown-up prop.

The actual size of volumes in Oxford's "Very Short Introduction to" series is that of a *very* slim paperback novel. NYPD put that much work into this without even reading the back cover to see what the book was about.

[Grifman]

Interesting:

Not really. Unless you are interested in history repeating itself. Otherwise it's just expected.

I think it should be noted that these two polls are not asking the same question. The first poll is asking whether one approves of how the current protests are being handled. The second is asking if they think the civil rights protests are or will effective. Though related, those are not the same question.

[em2nought]

I'd like to have some demands fulfilled. I'm willing to misbehave, but it's not really in my nature. Maybe bump my Associates of Science bumped up to a Bachelor's Degree? I know where the Jordan River & Mediterranean Sea are located, although sometimes I have to check my spelling on the Med.

[hepcat]

I'm willing to misbehave, but it's not really in my nature.

Well….other than backing an insurrection.

[em2nought]

I'm willing to misbehave, but it's not really in my nature.

Well….other than backing an insurrection.

The last minute illegally altered election laws was the actual insurrection.

[hepcat]

Keep that dream going. Cause when you finally wake up, you’re gonna feel like suuuucccchhhh an idiot.

[Kraken]

Today's protests pretty are pretty closely following the playbook of the 1980s anti-Apartheid protests. These worked, and they are the reason we recognize the word "divestment" today.

The key difference is that there were really no pro-Apartheid groups pushing back, although Pretoria had plenty of support in Congress, the White House, and the conservative press. (If you time traveled back to 1986 and asked the average American to describe Nelson Mandela, those who knew his name would most likely call him a commie terrorist.)

Also, South Africa was not a key American ally in a hostile region, and very few Americans had personal connections to, or vital business interests in, S Africa. They're similar in both being apartheid regimes, but Israel is more tightly tied to America and has a prominent religious dimension as an additional complication.

[Grifman]

This is not productive:

[Victoria Raverna]

Pro-Hamas?

[Kraken]

Pro-Hamas?

That tells you all you need to know about this fellow's posts.

I never click Xitter links so I'll leave it there.

[Kurth]

Pro-Hamas?

That tells you all you need to know about this fellow's posts.

I never click Xitter links so I'll leave it there.

Fair enough, but don’t you have to wonder why those definitely NOT pro-Hamas protesters were carrying ACABposters?

Like, what does ACAB really have to do with Gaza?

[Victoria Raverna]

I wonder if those that are now against protestors and support police crackdown on protestors also supported HK police crackdown on protestors.

[Kurth]

Today's protests pretty are pretty closely following the playbook of the 1980s anti-Apartheid protests. These worked, and they are the reason we recognize the word "divestment" today.

The key difference is that there were really no pro-Apartheid groups pushing back, although Pretoria had plenty of support in Congress, the White House, and the conservative press. (If you time traveled back to 1986 and asked the average American to describe Nelson Mandela, those who knew his name would most likely call him a commie terrorist.)

I’d just posit that there may be other “key differences” between apartheid era South Africa and Israel that might also differentiate between the anti-South Africa protests and today’s anti-Israel protests.

[Victoria Raverna]

Today's protests pretty are pretty closely following the playbook of the 1980s anti-Apartheid protests. These worked, and they are the reason we recognize the word "divestment" today.

The key difference is that there were really no pro-Apartheid groups pushing back, although Pretoria had plenty of support in Congress, the White House, and the conservative press. (If you time traveled back to 1986 and asked the average American to describe Nelson Mandela, those who knew his name would most likely call him a commie terrorist.)

I’d just posit that there may be other “key differences” between apartheid era South Africa and Israel that might also differentiate between the anti-South Africa protests and today’s anti-Israel protests.

Like South Africa's government didn't kill over 30K civilians in a few months? It took South Africa several years to kill that many.