Not going gently in to the good night...

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The Preacher
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Post by The Preacher »

Grundbegriff wrote:
LordMortis wrote:Do we need to bring up the concept of fraud to worry about whether or not we should doubt accuracy of our current digital voting booths
Of course. Error, whether accidental or deliberate, is a problem. However, the fact that millions of businesses rely on digital equipment daily and experience infinitesimal rates of error demonstrates that the real concern|paranoia over digital voting has to do with the possibility of untraceable fraud.
Well, perhaps I'm in the minority, but from what I saw, there was a lot of paranoia about paper ballots (rightly or wrongly) so these systems were somewhat rushed into usage (not sure about Ohio in particular). I tend to believe that unidentified bugs could have been present in the system and that we should ensure that these systems worked as well as is practicable. Doing a post mortem on the implemention of a new system seems simply prudent in my eyes.

Of course, I think I've diverged from the point of the linked stories. I find the insinuations of large-scale fraud rather laughable.
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Post by wire »

I can understand if someone was attacking your family but people being disgusted with the president and/or his policies? Really? He's a big boy...he can take it. If he couldn't he'd left politics years ago.

I do have to say it's been funny watching this perceived shift in the forum. When Clinton was in office the Republicans thought nothing of attacking him and his family. The same people in this forum that were the biggest attackers are now the biggest complainers now that those damn America hatin' liberals are calling the President's actions and decisions into question.

If them libs all goosed step into position behind the President this wouldn't really be a fun reading forum now would it? There's gotta be a few things to be outraged about doesn't there?
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Post by The Preacher »

wire wrote:I do have to say it's been funny watching this perceived shift in the forum. When Clinton was in office...
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Ow my space-time continuum!

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Post by wire »

The Preacher wrote:
wire wrote:I do have to say it's been funny watching this perceived shift in the forum. When Clinton was in office...
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Ow my space-time continuum!

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I don't get your point?
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Post by Dogstar »

I think he's cleverly trying to say that you're referencing a period of time (the Clinton years) when the Octopus Overlords forum didn't exist. I'm guessing he might have misinterpreted (perhaps deliberately) your referencing of comments and attitudes on the old GoneGold boards.
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Post by The Preacher »

Perhaps. ;)
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Post by wire »

AndyM wrote:I think he's cleverly trying to say that you're referencing a period of time (the Clinton years) when the Octopus Overlords forum didn't exist. I'm guessing he might have misinterpreted (perhaps deliberately) your referencing of comments and attitudes on the old GoneGold boards.
Probably but since this forum is made up of about 99% people from GG I just carry over the atmosphere from there to here when discussing topics. I was at GG for a long time (member 600 something) so I have a pretty good period of time in the forum to form my previous opinion on interactions in political topics.
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Post by LordMortis »

Of course, I think I've diverged from the point of the linked stories. I find the insinuations of large-scale fraud rather laughable.
I think the very mention of fraud in the links was mistake (or at least poor spokesmanship) as the heart of the issue is not (and should not be) in fraud, but rather in whether or not there is a potential problem with the vote gathering machines. Is the data being examined worthy of taking a closer work? Fraud or glitch or systematic problem should make no difference as to whether or not the data presented is worthy of investigation.
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Post by $iljanus »

LordMortis wrote:
Of course, I think I've diverged from the point of the linked stories. I find the insinuations of large-scale fraud rather laughable.
I think the very mention of fraud in the links was mistake (or at least poor spokesmanship) as the heart of the issue is not (and should not be) in fraud, but rather in whether or not there is a potential problem with the vote gathering machines. Is the data being examined worthy of taking a closer work? Fraud or glitch or systematic problem should make no difference as to whether or not the data presented is worthy of investigation.
You've summed up the opinion of myself and many other people from both sides of the political spectrum on this matter I think. I endorse this post! Thanks for saving me alot of typing! :)
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Post by SuperHiro »

I just re-read my post. Holy crap.

Sorry about that. I had about 15 minutes before some really fun meetings and just had to say something. Next time if I don't have time to say it right I won't say it at all.

My bad.
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Post by noxiousdog »

wire wrote:
AndyM wrote:I think he's cleverly trying to say that you're referencing a period of time (the Clinton years) when the Octopus Overlords forum didn't exist. I'm guessing he might have misinterpreted (perhaps deliberately) your referencing of comments and attitudes on the old GoneGold boards.
Probably but since this forum is made up of about 99% people from GG I just carry over the atmosphere from there to here when discussing topics. I was at GG for a long time (member 600 something) so I have a pretty good period of time in the forum to form my previous opinion on interactions in political topics.
I've heard that quite a bit, but was there significant R&P traffic (though it would have been in EBG) pre 2001? That's a long way back. I doubt you're really seeing a ton of the same posters.
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Post by Tareeq »

msduncan wrote:But I guess all you lefties get to endure 4 more years of Republican rule, so it's all worth it.
If that was addressed to me it was a touch off-target. My politics are so far to the right of yours that you'd have to make like Linda Blair to find me.

Image

I want to return the American government to its 1789 structure (minus slavery). I'm not conservative. I'm reactionary. I don't vote Republican because your half-assed candidates don't go nearly far enough to suit my taste in limited government.

Returning to the matter at hand, msduncan, I thought your forum behavior was commendable after the election, so it does dismay me somewhat to see you now speaking of stakes in people's hearts, metaphorically I know. Let's try to keep the love going.
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Nade wrote:"infinitesimal rates of error", huh?
In simple tallying and basic arithmetic with integers? Yes.

BTW, the cases to which you linked weren't instances of failure in calculation; they were instances of voter error induced in part by insufficiently idiot-proof interface designs.

Still, thanks for the spirited and amusing -- if badly disanalogous -- pseudo-rebuttal.
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Post by Grundbegriff »

msduncan wrote:Republicans in general are daily railed upon here as being somehow less intelligent, stupid, nazi, etc.
Maybe that's because some of them go out of their way to make florid promises of noble behavior and then turn on a dime when pragmatic factors challenge that principled stand....
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Post by Defiant »

Grundbegriff wrote: BTW, the cases to which you linked weren't instances of failure in calculation; they were instances of voter error induced in part by insufficiently idiot-proof interface designs.
Some of us would argue that not having the design be idiot-proof is a flaw of the programming, especially since part of the supposed advantage of electronic voting is making it more idiot-proof.

I also don't understand how idiots (voter-wise, anyway) caused a vote tally higher than the number of votes cast or hardware problems. Maybe I'm not enough of an idiot. ;)
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Post by Grundbegriff »

The Preacher wrote:from what I saw, there was a lot of paranoia about paper ballots (rightly or wrongly)
I believe the paranoia was about particular kinds of paper ballots (specifically, punch-card ballots) and about particular presentational formats printed on paper ballots (for example, the notorious butterfly ballot).

The fact of a paper trail is actually a virtue. Think of how rhetoric about the Florida recounts would've gone after Election 2000 if there hadn't been paper ballots that could be examined physically by the press consortium after the fact.
so these systems were somewhat rushed into usage
Four years of testing isn't enough to confirm the accuracy of an increment operator?
I tend to believe that unidentified bugs could have been present in the system
How stupid must a programmer or quality assurance tester be to fail to recognize whether "votecount = votecount++" is working?
and that we should ensure that these systems worked as well as is practicable.
The machines must work properly. So the verification that they're working properly is a process that must work properly. But the verification that verification is going well is a process that must work properly. And the verification of that meta-verification must go well, and so on, ad infinitum.

Where do common sense, trust, and reasonable certainty terminate that infinite regress? Must every paranoid dissident be satisfied?

At least with paper ballots and permanent ink, it's possible to point at the empirical tally itself rather than rely on an abstract indicator.
Doing a post mortem on the implemention of a new system seems simply prudent in my eyes.... I find the insinuations of large-scale fraud rather laughable.
I agree on both counts. ;)
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Tareeq wrote:My politics are so far to the right....
[snip]
I want to return the American government to its 1789 structure (minus slavery).
You're not a monarchist?

Liberal!
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Post by Defiant »

Grundbegriff wrote:
I tend to believe that unidentified bugs could have been present in the system
How stupid must a programmer or quality assurance tester be to fail to recognize whether "votecount = votecount++" is working?
:shock:

One stupid enough to realize that it's an NP-complete problem?

:P
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Nade wrote:Some of us would argue that not having the design be idiot-proof is a flaw of the programming
Design != programming, though some programmers design and some designers program.
I also don't understand how idiots (voter-wise, anyway) caused a vote tally higher than the number of votes cast
Perhaps by standing there and voting repeatedly "to be sure it takes", because feedback was insufficient. ;)

Sadly, election workers are also human.
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Post by Eduardo X »

The voting machines have been known to be faulty since they were revealed earlier this year. In fact, Diebold sued the journalists who exposed this stating slander. Diebold lost.
Any n00b could hack those machines in 5 minutes.
Seeing as how the machines are very vulnerable, an audit would be very prudent.
ohh and here is your rolly eyes you lost em. :roll:
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Post by The Preacher »

Grundbegriff wrote:
The Preacher wrote:so these systems were somewhat rushed into usage
Four years of testing isn't enough to confirm the accuracy of an increment operator?
I don't believe that many of the systems were tested for four years but that could be my ignorance. IIRC, most of the federal funding didn't even come out until 2 yrs ago (not that local governments couldn't have gotten a step ahead but it just seems unlikely that they would do so without the federal handout).
I tend to believe that unidentified bugs could have been present in the system
How stupid must a programmer or quality assurance tester be to fail to recognize whether "votecount = votecount++" is working?
Obviously counting is easy. It's the OS that could be hard (such as whether buffers are cleared and votes are zeroed out). I'd also ask that the systems "hackability" be fully vetted -- i.e. investigating whether someone behind a curtain could easily reboot/corrupt the unit. I'm not talking about full scale hacking, just what could someone do in 10 minutes by him/herself.
and that we should ensure that these systems worked as well as is practicable.
The machines must work properly. So the verification that they're working properly is a process that must work properly. But the verification that verification is going well is a process that must work properly. And the verification of that meta-verification must go well, and so on, ad infinitum.
That why we should get a "blue state" to do it: make them pay for the auditing of the auditors. ;)
Where do common sense, trust, and reasonable certainty terminate that infinite regress? Must every paranoid dissident be satisfied?
Even paranoids have real enemies. But, on the whole, I agree.
Doing a post mortem on the implemention of a new system seems simply prudent in my eyes.... I find the insinuations of large-scale fraud rather laughable.
I agree on both counts. ;)
Then why am I replying to you? Bah!
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Nade wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:"votecount = votecount++"
One stupid enough to realize that it's an NP-complete problem?
:roll:
Fine. votecount++ tout court, for those who can't differentiate between casual reference and formal code....
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Post by Defiant »

Grundbegriff wrote:
Nade wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:"votecount = votecount++"
One stupid enough to realize that it's an NP-complete problem?
:roll:
Fine. votecount++ tout court, for those who can't differentiate between casual reference and formal code....
But the electronic voting system is a lot more than just votecount++. At least, I hope it is. ;)
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Post by LordMortis »

That why we should get a "blue state" to do it: make them pay for the auditing of the auditors.
I don't pay attention to blue states and red states, but didn't New Hampshire vote Democrat? I think they were chosen not becuase of their allegiance, but because the demographic was smallest sample they could get while stilling getting "a full picture."
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Post by The Preacher »

LordMortis wrote:
That why we should get a "blue state" to do it: make them pay for the auditing of the auditors.
I don't pay attention to blue states and red states, but didn't New Hampshire vote Democrat?
That was a joke about Grunds' infinite series.
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Post by LordMortis »

Ah, Color me dense.
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Post by Tareeq »

Grundbegriff wrote:You're not a monarchist?

Liberal!
Monarchy's efficiency penalties are crippling. It's best to go straight for democracy and hold out for communism if you can't score an early game win.

But then I play on huge maps.
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Post by McBa1n »

msduncan wrote:
Tareeq wrote:
msduncan wrote:If you think this is being done for any other reason than an attempt to cast this election into doubt and therefore muddy the 'mandate' waters, then you are kidding yourself and everyone else.

No politician out there cares a lick about counting votes unless they think they might somehow benefit from a recount. Even the third party guys are anti-Bush, and they will stop at nothing to blunt the end of the red state electorate that was shoved into all the liberal activists' hearts.
(Emphasis added)
What can I say? I became a poor winner when everyone here became piss poor losers.

It's hard to hear your candidate undergo constant elementary school style personal attacks on a day to day basis. This is a hostile forum for Republicans, so I fight fire with fire.

Edit to add: Not only your candidate -- but Republicans in general are daily railed upon here as being somehow less intelligent, stupid, nazi, etc.
I'm sick of it. Apparently America is too. But I guess all you lefties get to endure 4 more years of Republican rule, so it's all worth it.
With all due respect, Red states are notorious for most of those things. As anyone who understands 'conditioning' and 'control' of the populace - the Red states fell into line as they always have. It's not anyone's fault that blue states generally have better opportunity to grow beyond the 'birth/school/work/death' thing... That's just how it is. You can't blame someone because they don't have the advantages that you do - and you also can't fault a human because they grow up in an environment that places emphasis not on what you do - but what you are NOT supposed to do --- i.e. the culture of fear.

I'm lucky I don't live in that world and I don't look down my snout. I was just lucky to get a chance to move out of a red state and see that humanity is more than a bible and that killing innocent people and taking away freedom is not as important than just doing what you can to live and let live - and not telling anyone else how to do it. Cuz red or blue, our shit all stinks and we're all gonna die. So who gives a crap?
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Post by Tareeq »

I take it all back, msduncan. Have at him.
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Post by Poleaxe »

McBa1n wrote:
With all due respect, Red states are notorious for most of those things. As anyone who understands 'conditioning' and 'control' of the populace - the Red states fell into line as they always have. It's not anyone's fault that blue states generally have better opportunity to grow beyond the 'birth/school/work/death' thing... That's just how it is. You can't blame someone because they don't have the advantages that you do - and you also can't fault a human because they grow up in an environment that places emphasis not on what you do - but what you are NOT supposed to do --- i.e. the culture of fear.
Umm...no.

There is no real difference between red states and blue states. I could reverse your post and rail against urban poverty and the culture of looking for handouts that democrats cater to and perpetuate. Without Philly, Penn is a red state. Without Detroit, Mich goes red. Without SF and LA, Cali is a red state. Without Seatle, Washington is a red state. Without Dade county, Florida is easily a solid red state.

Blue states don't enjoy some sort of open minded intellectualism that red state denizens can't comprehend.
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Post by SuperHiro »

McBa1n wrote: With all due respect, Red states are notorious for most of those things. As anyone who understands 'conditioning' and 'control' of the populace - the Red states fell into line as they always have. It's not anyone's fault that blue states generally have better opportunity to grow beyond the 'birth/school/work/death' thing... That's just how it is. You can't blame someone because they don't have the advantages that you do - and you also can't fault a human because they grow up in an environment that places emphasis not on what you do - but what you are NOT supposed to do --- i.e. the culture of fear.

I'm lucky I don't live in that world and I don't look down my snout. I was just lucky to get a chance to move out of a red state and see that humanity is more than a bible and that killing innocent people and taking away freedom is not as important than just doing what you can to live and let live - and not telling anyone else how to do it. Cuz red or blue, our shit all stinks and we're all gonna die. So who gives a crap?
Tareeq wrote:I take it all back, msduncan. Have at him.
Me first me first!

Image

Just my small measure to further derail the thread.
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Post by Dogstar »

Hey now... there's some of us that are trying to have a civil discussion here. Generalizations, inaccuracies, and venomous responses by either side don't get us anywhere. I'm assuming msduncan is still at work, but when he gets back online, I'd hope that he'd respond to my standing question before he starts taking shots at McBain's... somewhat illogical and offensive assertions. I say "somewhat" because the culture of fear could be an interesting discussion topic, but I don't think it's quite divided between red and blue states, and it's best reserved for another thread.
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Post by Crux »

msduncan wrote:I agree.

Pathetic.

Democrats please get the message:

1. You lost. Big time.
2. You need to move away from the extreme left, or you will continue to lose.
3. Seize your party back away from these PACs and extreme activist groups, or you will never win the heartland.
4. Get over it. Re-read #1.

And you can tell your buddy's wife that a red state guy sends that message.
You are teh winnar!1!!!1!!11
I'm sick of it. Apparently America is too.
Just curious... in your mind is "America" only the marginally larger proportion of voters who voted the same as you? You keep talking as though the 1/3 of the country that voted for Bush were somehow this overwhelming majority that sent a clear message to those few losers in the corner.

EDIT: Removed my last comment because it was borderline hypocritical :D
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Post by msduncan »

Tareeq wrote:
msduncan wrote:But I guess all you lefties get to endure 4 more years of Republican rule, so it's all worth it.
If that was addressed to me it was a touch off-target. My politics are so far to the right of yours that you'd have to make like Linda Blair to find me.

Image

I want to return the American government to its 1789 structure (minus slavery). I'm not conservative. I'm reactionary. I don't vote Republican because your half-assed candidates don't go nearly far enough to suit my taste in limited government.

Returning to the matter at hand, msduncan, I thought your forum behavior was commendable after the election, so it does dismay me somewhat to see you now speaking of stakes in people's hearts, metaphorically I know. Let's try to keep the love going.
Of course it wasn't directed at you. I know your political leanings.

You are right. I should tone it down. I just get frustrated with the constant and relentless bashing of Republicans and conservatives in here, and I tend to blow up every now and then.

By the way: to be honest it would suprise many that I am not a Republican. I like to call myself a constitutionalist like yourself. I think we should return to an appointed Senate, return to a Constitution that forbids an income tax, reinvigorate the 10th Amendment, preserve the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment, and even return to the idea that only land owners can vote (since they have a vested interest)

I agree with you that I think the founders had it right the first time. I recognize that they wisely laid the foundations to abolish slavery when they wrote up that document -- they just realized the political reality that they couldn't yet do it and hold the Republic together at that moment.

Why do I back the Republicans and Bush so feverishly? Because I also recognize that the modern liberal movement is far greater a threat to that old Republic I love so dearly than any other outside threat we've encountered. This movement doesn't like the Constitution. This movement deems that document outdated. They think we should cast aside our Americanism and join the ranks of the world socialists. What they support is nothing short of socialism, and is just about as opposite the founders directions for our government as it could possibly be. If this movement finally and once and for all seizes control, the Republic will truly be dead, and the chains of government control will wrap ever tighter around our necks for the next several centuries. Call it the political dark ages if you will.

I recognize that the Republicans are the only viable candidates that are strong enough to stand up against this movement. Are they also fundamentally flawed and also destroy a lot of what the founders set forth? YES. But at the very least they do it at a much slower and less deliberate rate than the other major party. If I vote libertarian or some third party and enable the modern Democrat to get into power -- it will hasten our slide in the exact opposite direction that I want to go.

And one other VERY critical element: I believe that one absolutely critical element of the survival of freedom is the ability to maintain an armed populace. This is EVERYWHERE in the founder's writings. With an armed population, the government will always be at least partially in check. They made this clear in just about every major important document they penned. The Republicans fight the Democrats on this matter on a yearly basis. I make no mistake that if the Democrats were in power, the 2nd Amendment would be the very first casualty.

THAT is why I so blindly and feverishly support Bush. Because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Ben Franklin once told a curious woman who asked what kind of government they had given the people "A Republic, madam, if you can keep it". I'm fighting to try and keep from getting so far from it that we can't recover.

So when you see me defend Bush and the Republicans to the nth degree -- it's because I don't want to even open the door to the Democrats to exploit a weakness in order to get into power to further their world socialists positions. We're truly in a pickle -- having to form a united front for a party that doesn't support the old Republic for the sake of keeping a much greater evil at bay. But that's what I do every day.

And there you have it -- how I see things.
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Post by geezer »

msduncan wrote:
Tareeq wrote:
msduncan wrote:But I guess all you lefties get to endure 4 more years of Republican rule, so it's all worth it.
If that was addressed to me it was a touch off-target. My politics are so far to the right of yours that you'd have to make like Linda Blair to find me.

Image

I want to return the American government to its 1789 structure (minus slavery). I'm not conservative. I'm reactionary. I don't vote Republican because your half-assed candidates don't go nearly far enough to suit my taste in limited government.

Returning to the matter at hand, msduncan, I thought your forum behavior was commendable after the election, so it does dismay me somewhat to see you now speaking of stakes in people's hearts, metaphorically I know. Let's try to keep the love going.
Of course it wasn't directed at you. I know your political leanings.

You are right. I should tone it down. I just get frustrated with the constant and relentless bashing of Republicans and conservatives in here, and I tend to blow up every now and then.

By the way: to be honest it would suprise many that I am not a Republican. I like to call myself a constitutionalist like yourself. I think we should return to an appointed Senate, return to a Constitution that forbids an income tax, reinvigorate the 10th Amendment, preserve the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment, and even return to the idea that only land owners can vote (since they have a vested interest)

I agree with you that I think the founders had it right the first time. I recognize that they wisely laid the foundations to abolish slavery when they wrote up that document -- they just realized the political reality that they couldn't yet do it and hold the Republic together at that moment.

Why do I back the Republicans and Bush so feverishly? Because I also recognize that the modern liberal movement is far greater a threat to that old Republic I love so dearly than any other outside threat we've encountered. This movement doesn't like the Constitution. This movement deems that document outdated. They think we should cast aside our Americanism and join the ranks of the world socialists. What they support is nothing short of socialism, and is just about as opposite the founders directions for our government as it could possibly be. If this movement finally and once and for all seizes control, the Republic will truly be dead, and the chains of government control will wrap ever tighter around our necks for the next several centuries. Call it the political dark ages if you will.

I recognize that the Republicans are the only viable candidates that are strong enough to stand up against this movement. Are they also fundamentally flawed and also destroy a lot of what the founders set forth? YES. But at the very least they do it at a much slower and less deliberate rate than the other major party. If I vote libertarian or some third party and enable the modern Democrat to get into power -- it will hasten our slide in the exact opposite direction that I want to go.

And one other VERY critical element: I believe that one absolutely critical element of the survival of freedom is the ability to maintain an armed populace. This is EVERYWHERE in the founder's writings. With an armed population, the government will always be at least partially in check. They made this clear in just about every major important document they penned. The Republicans fight the Democrats on this matter on a yearly basis. I make no mistake that if the Democrats were in power, the 2nd Amendment would be the very first casualty.

THAT is why I so blindly and feverishly support Bush. Because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Ben Franklin once told a curious woman who asked what kind of government they had given the people "A Republic, madam, if you can keep it". I'm fighting to try and keep from getting so far from it that we can't recover.

So when you see me defend Bush and the Republicans to the nth degree -- it's because I don't want to even open the door to the Democrats to exploit a weakness in order to get into power to further their world socialists positions. We're truly in a pickle -- having to form a united front for a party that doesn't support the old Republic for the sake of keeping a much greater evil at bay. But that's what I do every day.

And there you have it -- how I see things.
That's all very Jefersonian and all, but in citing "the founders" you ignore the very real dichotomy that was present betwen the staunch anti-federalists and the Hamiltons and Washingtons of the era. You can speak to the intent of the founders, but I think what you really mean is that you'd like a return to the ideas espoused by the anti-federalists and that for some reason the Adamses and so on I guess were not true founders or fought against the ideals of the republic or something?

Reinvigorating the 10th ammendment is fine, and in fact I think most of us, even us commie pinko libs, generally agree that specific local control is more apt to mirror our needs than is general control handed down to us by a national government that needs to take the situations of various regions, cultures and economies into consideration.

As for returning to the original intent of the 2nd ammendment, that would require, in addition to an armed populace, the elimination of the national armed forces. Don't forget that the Jeffersonian way of thinking on this issue was not only that the citizens neede to be armed to protect them from the tyranny of the government, but that said tyrany was a direct result of a standing army and as a result, having a standing army was the first step to depotism. This is one reason why they saw Hamilton as such a threat, and considered him a monarchist and a despot in the making.

Appointing the Senate? Doubtlessly would result in an even less egalitarian system of representation than we have now - House of Lords anyone?

As for restricting voting to landowners on the basis of them having more direct interest in the country, that's just not good logic. As we have moved away from agriculture and hard industry, ownership of land becomes less the mechanism that drives the country and ownership of ideas and capital becomes the driving force. To give a theoretical example, does someone that owns an acre of land in the mountains of Idaho that they picked up for a hundred bucks REALY have more of an interest in the well-being of this nation than a single person pulling doen 250K to work on systems security in silicon valley that happens to rent because they are on a 2 year contract? I don't think so. The days of beingtied to and defined by one's land are over. And in fact, this is indicative of the whole problem with conservatism -- It doesn't just not embrace change, but it doggedly adheres to values and strategies set in one time while he world around it changes. You can't stop progress MSD - and with progress comes the need to adjustthe rules of society, culture and governance. You can react against it, but it's gonna happen and in the long them there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.
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Dogstar
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Post by Dogstar »

Well, you've certainly provided a wealth of material to respond to, msduncan. You didn't quite address my question directly, so I'm going to assume this speaks to it:
So when you see me defend Bush and the Republicans to the nth degree -- it's because I don't want to even open the door to the Democrats to exploit a weakness in order to get into power to further their world socialists positions.
I'm going to take that to mean that you oppose investigations of voting irregularities, even for the betterment of the democracy/republic you profess to love so deeply, if they might benefit an opposition party. There are so many things wrong with that, I honestly don't know where to begin.

For the rest of your points --

1. With the NRA as powerful a lobbying force as it is, do you honestly think the Democrats are going to some how strip citizens of their guns? For heaven's sake, there was even a roll-back on assault weapons. If the Congress isn't going to block that, how on earth would they go after handguns? Btw, could you also please put forth a plan while you're at it to cut back on the numbers of accidental gun deaths each year? Or even the intentional ones?

Also, would you propose we disband the armed forces? Because an armed civilian populace isn't going to be much of a blocking force when an M1 rolls into town or an F-16 drops a bomb. The blocking force is the citizens themselves, not the weapons they carry. That's why there was so much turmoil over the Kent State shooting. We're not so deeply divided as a nation that it wouldn't cause a huge uproar if the armed forces were turned loose on protestors.

I'd also debate that the 2nd Amendment would be the first casualty, or even a casualty at all. With the world situation such as it is, the Patriot Act, environmental issues, stem cell research, supreme court justices coming up for appointment, gay marriage/civil unions, budget deficits, and health care -- I kind of think that a Democrat might have a host of things to work on, before after a provocative issue that would only further increase the divide in this country. Thus, your statement becomes inflammatory rhetoric.

2. An appointed Senate is ever less-representative of the populace. Just pointing that out, given that Merriam-Webster defines a republic as "a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law." Once you start getting into appointments instead of direct elections, you remove some of that responsibility to the populace. Although appointments would mean that some of the voting irregularities you refuse to investigate/work on would become moot.

3. Let's say that a universal health care plan passes through Congress and the President signs off on it (I don't think it'll happen anytime soon, but we're talking hypotheticals) with solid popular support. Are you saying that because the country decided to address a pressing national issue, one the founders probably never even thought of, they're going against national interests? Should everyone involved be burnt at the stake for trying to solve a problem with perhaps a workable solution?

4. And last but not least, here are your words:
Because I also recognize that the modern liberal movement is far greater a threat to that old Republic I love so dearly than any other outside threat we've encountered.
This is something that's just... unbelievable, and it makes it very, very difficult to take you seriously. Liberals are a greater threat than Hitler or Japan was? They can do more damage to this country than all the terrorist groups combined out there? Clearly, support for better health care, concern about the environment, and equal rights for every citizen in this country are threats we all have to rally against. If they place the country in such grave danger (moreso than other countries where we've actually invaded to prevent them from being threats), why has there been no massive police action to take care of them?
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SuperHiro
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Post by SuperHiro »

Whoa. Who bombed OKC again?

That's it? Democrats = Evil Socialism? That's all you got? That's why you fight so hard? Because you think we're evil and we're tearing the fabric of the nation apart? I have to echo AndyM's comments, that's a little extreme. And as a resident of a throughly liberal city, it's also a little bit offensive.

What year is this? 1990? I don't know whether to debate or start doing the Mario.

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Kadoth Nodens
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Post by Kadoth Nodens »

SuperHiro wrote:
What year is this? 1990? I don't know whether to debate or start doing the Mario.
Princess Peach and King Koopa are both dirty tyrants.
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Eduardo X
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Post by Eduardo X »

MSD, you've totally lost me.
While I understand everything you wrote, none of your post seems to make sense.
Do you want it so that private citizens can own weaponry like an M1 Abrhams, F-16s, B-52s, SAWs, and so on so we can fight against the government? Do you really want to see what a totally disenfranchised majority of the country would do once their "non-land owning" asses lose the vote? Especially when they have weaponry ready to combat the US military?

And, as an anarcho-commie, I find your labeling of democrats as socialists laugable. They are much more to the right than even the most moderate socialists.
ohh and here is your rolly eyes you lost em. :roll:
-AttAdude
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LordMortis
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Post by LordMortis »

What's strange is that I am kind of the anti-Nader. I think the Repubs are doing more damage to a de-centralized/less government/personal liberties America, because they do their damage under the guise of supporting and conserving "traditional" America. When the Dems try pull away from the already bastardized Jeffersonian philosophy they are kept in check by public outcry (except the Lincolns and Roosevelts). When the Repubs do it, their legislation gets passed as patrioc duty or necessity every single time. At least with contemporary Dems I know where they stand and how to fight them. Contemporary Repubs seem to have mastered their second face.
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