East-West battle over the Ukraine

The Mad Hatter · Post by **The Mad Hatter** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:13 pm

The election crisis in the Ukraine is turning into quite the story. The current government there is closely allied with Russia and the Putin has made it clear that they support the election results, flawed or not. The Americans and the EU are declaring the results flawed - Powell just came out with an official statement rejecting them. Putin will be very unhappy if the US helps topple a pro-Russian government, especially within what they consider their sphere of influence. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:17 pm

If it weren't so sad, it would be funny. George keeps looking to Putin like he is a dad or something. "Do as I say and not as I do!" If I were Putin I would give George the one fingered salute and a great big Faw-Q

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:18 pm

Last I heard, the US was calling for an investigation. Has there been actual evience found that the results were false?

wire · Post by **wire** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:19 pm

I don't think it's our place to call other democratic elections to be flawed when ours is less than perfect just because we don't like the outcome.

Our administration wouldn't be saying this if the pro-western candidate had won and the pro-Moscow candidate was calling foul.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:21 pm

Nade wrote:Last I heard, the US was calling for an investigation. Has there been actual evience found that the results were false?

Yes, observers noted a large number of fradulent acts - from busloads of people voting twice to mathematically unsual results in certain districts.

Grifman

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:22 pm

wire wrote:I don't think it's our place to call other democratic elections to be flawed when ours is less than perfect just because we don't like the outcome.

Imperfect does not equal fraudulant. According to neutral observers, the elections were fraudulent.

Grifman

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:26 pm

Nade wrote:Last I heard, the US was calling for an investigation. Has there been actual evience found that the results were false?

Also, in some districts more people voted than were registered.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:30 pm

The notion that Bush will be remembered as the president who "lost Russia" has crossed my mind more than once. While he focused monomaniacally on forcing democracy on Iraq, it's slipped away almost unnoticed in our old nemesis. That's going to come back and bite us, eventually.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:34 pm

I think it will bite them harder. They are headed for soviet block civil war. What would bite us is that we will feel obligated to get involved. I don't think that will happen under Bush's watch, but he sure ain't helping things go smoothly.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:06 am

Ironrod wrote:The notion that Bush will be remembered as the president who "lost Russia" has crossed my mind more than once. While he focused monomaniacally on forcing democracy on Iraq, it's slipped away almost unnoticed in our old nemesis. That's going to come back and bite us, eventually.

This is as much of a canard as saying someone "lost" China. Exactly what was Bush supposed to have done in these past three years? Maybe we should blame Clinton since he was in office during a much more crucial time for 8 years before Bush. I think you overestimate what the US can or could do to influence internal events in Russia.

Grifman

Quaro · Post by **Quaro** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:22 am

Their election was truly a stain on democracy. The independent observers, the exit polls, etc. peg the opposition guy as winning by 11 points. Ballots boxes burned, mutiple 100% turnouts in districts (gee, that's not suspicious, etc.) Major cities withing the Ukraine are refusing to accept the results, companies are refusing to produce anything, and more.

Check out what happened to the opposition leader:

But that's not all -- something fishy is up. Doctors in Austria who treated him are under police protection. Man the whole situation is crazy.

The current guy is hiring foreign mercs to keep everything under control, which is never a good sign.

CSL · Post by **CSL** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:25 am

Sounds like the Ukraine is going to hell in a hand basket and our friend Vladimir Putin is waiting in the wings to step in. This whole situation is one colussal clusterfuck.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:30 am

A soviet-block civil war is a scary, scary idea. So little control, so much potential firepower.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:01 am

Quaro wrote:Their election was truly a stain on democracy. The independent observers, the exit polls, etc. peg the opposition guy as winning by 11 points. Ballots boxes burned, mutiple 100% turnouts in districts (gee, that's not suspicious, etc.) Major cities withing the Ukraine are refusing to accept the results, companies are refusing to produce anything, and more.

Check out what happened to the opposition leader:

Damn, I had heard reports that he had been poisoned on some way, but just chalked it up to electioneering by the opposition. But damn, I have to wonder after seeing that picture. Damn!

Grifman

adumir · Post by **adumir** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:59 pm

Quaro wrote:

Check out what happened to the opposition leader:

Since he's obviously turning into the Emperor, maybe it's a good thing he wasn't elected?

Actually, this whole mess really worries me. John Titor's nuclear future, here we come! (not really a believer)

Tareeq · Post by **Tareeq** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:33 pm

Nade wrote:Last I heard, the US was calling for an investigation. Has there been actual evience found that the results were false?

Yes. There were reported turnouts of 96% of the population voting in the eastern districts of the Ukraine. That's impossible. 96% returns = Stalin, Kim, Saddam, etc. Since the election is so closely contested, the official result is fraudulent.

Rhett · Post by **Rhett** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:04 am

This could go to hell really quickly.... A former Soviet bloc war would be disasterous.

McBa1n · Post by **McBa1n** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:58 am

It is incorrect to refer to Ukraine as 'the Ukraine' (even while it was part of the former Union).

So it would be proper and correct to say:
"Some shit is messed up in Ukraine"
It would be improper and incorrect to say:
"Some shit is messed up in the Ukraine"

For some reason, that happens often with Ukraine.... Not quite sure why.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:12 pm

So instead of saying

Insane in the membrane...
Insane in the Ukraine!

We should say

Insane in the membrane
Insane in Ukraine!

Works for me!