Red Cross: US Torturing Prisoners at Guantanamo

[noxiousdog]

Superpowers are built on, like it or not, kicking ass. The countries that stopped kicking ass (and the list goes back millenia) have been relegated to second tier powers that rely on others for direction and protection.

Some Superpowers fall because they stretch themselves too thin.

Abosolutely. And fighting wars is a great way to bankrupt your nation. But that's not what we are discussing.

[Dirt]

Why are the Romans no more while the Han still exist and thrive? Generally speaking, I think it's because the Han (even as it's people were conquerored from time to time) always won the war of ideas. Everyone wanted to be the Han and live the life the Han were living. Can we say that about the USA today?

The Han still exists and thrives? Wikipedia seems to think their power ended in 220AD.

And if you're calling modern China Han, well, then what's going on in Guantanamo and Abu Graib, can't hold a candle to running over students with tanks.

The Chinese are Han, the Han are Chinese. There are other cultural identities that make up the Chinese, but the Han are predominant.

You're comparing a internal problem (quelling an uprising) with an external one (torturing non-combatants/POW's/detainees... what is it this month?). The USA has been just as harsh, if not harsher, when quelling it's own uprisings.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Superpowers are built on, like it or not, kicking ass.

So you think torturing people is "kicking ass"?

Do you also call your trips to the Supermarket "hunting for your food"?

[YellowKing]

How very simple of you.

How very elitist of you. Good to know there are altruistic do-gooders like yourself keeping the world safe from evil democratic superpowers.

I'm sure there are some innocents being detained, and to that I say, "The world sucks, don't it?" We've got innocent people in prison, good people die in car accidents. Babies are born with brain tumors. WTF else is new.
We had about 3,000 innocent people die on September 11, and their fate was a hell of a lot worse than having to sit around in their underwear.

If the US believes it can learn intelligence from blasting these people with rap music, then all I can say is strap in and pass the Jay-Z.

[Dirt]

How very elitist of you. Good to know there are altruistic do-gooders like yourself keeping the world safe from evil democratic superpowers.

We aren't trying to keep the world safe, we're trying to keep our Superpower democratic. At least that's what I'm trying to do.

I'm sure there are some innocents being detained, and to that I say, "The world sucks, don't it?" We've got innocent people in prison, good people die in car accidents. Babies are born with brain tumors. WTF else is new.
We had about 3,000 innocent people die on September 11, and their fate was a hell of a lot worse than having to sit around in their underwear.

So easy to say when it's not your child or your family member.

If the US believes it can learn intelligence from blasting these people with rap music, then all I can say is strap in and pass the Jay-Z.

I agree with this, but why don't we make sure who we have is a terrorist first?

[noxiousdog]

Superpowers are built on, like it or not, kicking ass.

So you think torturing people is "kicking ass"?

Do you also call your trips to the Supermarket "hunting for your food"?

Please point me to anything where I have endorsed such tactics?

I think it's pretty clear where I stand on the concept of the nation-state.

[noxiousdog]

You're comparing a internal problem (quelling an uprising) with an external one (torturing non-combatants/POW's/detainees... what is it this month?). The USA has been just as harsh, if not harsher, when quelling it's own uprisings.

And what do you think is going to happen when someone tries to inhibit China's food imports?

[Dirt]

You're comparing a internal problem (quelling an uprising) with an external one (torturing non-combatants/POW's/detainees... what is it this month?). The USA has been just as harsh, if not harsher, when quelling it's own uprisings.

And what do you think is going to happen when someone tries to inhibit China's food imports?

War of course.

[geezer]

How very simple of you.

How very elitist of you. Good to know there are altruistic do-gooders like yourself keeping the world safe from evil democratic superpowers.

I'm sure there are some innocents being detained, and to that I say, "The world sucks, don't it?" We've got innocent people in prison, good people die in car accidents. Babies are born with brain tumors. WTF else is new.
We had about 3,000 innocent people die on September 11, and their fate was a hell of a lot worse than having to sit around in their underwear.

If the US believes it can learn intelligence from blasting these people with rap music, then all I can say is strap in and pass the Jay-Z.

edited out much too obnoxous reply...

BUT... If it's elitist to believe that we can hold ourselves to a higher standard and can accomplish what we need to without insulting the world by demanding one set of behavior from everyone else, and then doing the opposite ourselves, then I guess I'm elitist.

If I look down upon those that think the US has some corner on moral goodness, then I suppose again, I am elitist.

If I disagree with someone who thinks that Arabic culture knows about nothing but killing, then again, I suppose I'm an elitist.

OTOH, If I figure, "What the fuck -- so maybe some people get their lives ruined, maybe some are even killed. Hell, at least some dude out in Moline is safe. Sucks for those kids in Iraq, but. eh.." Well then I'm not elitist. I'm just an asshole.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Superpowers are built on, like it or not, kicking ass.

So you think torturing people is "kicking ass"?

Do you also call your trips to the Supermarket "hunting for your food"?

Please point me to anything where I have endorsed such tactics?

I think it's pretty clear where I stand on the concept of the nation-state.

You seem to think that we need to "not play by the rules" to maintain our Superpower status.

In the context of this thread, that is tacit endorsement of torture.

[noxiousdog]

You seem to think that we need to "not play by the rules" to maintain our Superpower status.

In the context of this thread, that is tacit endorsement of torture.

I seem to think I want the federal government to go away and leave me alone. In that situation, I couldn't care less if we are a superpower or not.

However, most of society wants immigrants, someone else to pay for their health care, and low unemployment. In this situation, being a superpower is important.

As I offered The Meal and Dirt, find me a superpower that was a model of morality and I'll consider your position.

[Mr. Sparkle]

As I offered The Meal and Dirt, find me a superpower that was a model of morality and I'll consider your position.

What does that have to do with anything?

I thought I remember hearing something about History and "Doomed to Repeat It"

Do we really want to go out like they all did?

Maybe staying away from torture and oppression will keep the hounds at bay.

[Dirt]

It's not the USA's status as a Superpower that's in question here, it is it's status as a Democratic (Republic) nation.

[noxiousdog]

It's not the USA's status as a Superpower that's in question here, it is it's status as a Democratic (Republic) nation.

How is that? We've been doing this for 250 years.

What does that have to do with anything?

I thought I remember hearing something about History and "Doomed to Repeat It"

Do we really want to go out like they all did?

Maybe staying away from torture and oppression will keep the hounds at bay.

Is that your theory? Civilizations fall because they torture and oppress?

[The Meal]

If the US believes it can learn intelligence from blasting these people with rap music, then all I can say is strap in and pass the Jay-Z.

What's to be gained by doing this to people before they're put up to trial? Is the US Government afraid that they may not be able to prosecute some of the guilty who could answer their questions?

I didn't major in Civics nor Ethics, but I'm flabbergasted at what there is to be gained by puting people through any sort of torture, at any severity, before judging their innocence or guilt.

~Neal

[The Meal]

As I offered The Meal and Dirt, find me a superpower that was a model of morality and I'll consider your position.

The lack of an ideal situation does not mean that our current situation cannot be improved.

~Neal

[Mr. Sparkle]

Is that your theory? Civilizations fall because they torture and oppress?

Is your theory that torture and opression are necesary aspects of ciivillization? You might have to turn in you Quinnian secret decoder ring.

If everybody was treated fairly and equally, what reason would there be for overthrowing civilization exactly? Half-Life 2 getting delayed?

[LawBeefaroni]

Is that your theory? Civilizations fall because they torture and oppress?

They fall because they get fat and happy during good times and react horribly when adversity strikes. They fall because they get surpassed by emerging civilizations. They fall under the weight of their own hubris. There are lots of ways to go down. The acceptance of torture and oppression are merely symptoms of the greater disease.

Some of the world's greatest civilizations lasted hundreds, maybe thousands of years. They still fell. We're only 228 years in and already raising the bar for hubris.

[Poleaxe]

I can't believe there's even debate about this. People are being detained and tortured (however mildly) with no right to a hearing or even to know what the charges are against them, and this is jsutice? On what basis do we know these guys are terrorists? Intelligence? Psychological profiling? Funny hairdos?

Even if we knew for certain they were evil murderers, America treats its own homegrown death row mass murderers better than this. Some of the most evil twisted fucks out there are quietly and safely rotting in jail, with no torture applied and their futures clear as crysta; meanwhile, in some island camp somewhere, potentially innocent people are being tortured, brutalised and they might not even know why.

Poleaxe, YK, DD: Doesn't in scare you in the slightest that the government thinks this is an ok way to carry on? Do you really believe that any trrorist is fair game for whatver you want to throw at him, in spite of the very principles on which your nation was founded? Do you believe the same of people who are merely suspected terrorists?

Sheesh.

1. Justice for the detainees is not our goal.

2. SCOTUS has interpreted the constitution to not protect non-citizens on foreign soil.

3. Foreign terrorists are subject to any treatment we should choose to dish out as far as I am concerned.

4. Americans enjoy the protection of the constitution. Non-americans do not. And should not.

[geezer]

Is that your theory? Civilizations fall because they torture and oppress?

Is your theory that torture and opression are necesary aspects of ciivillization? You might have to turn in you Quinnian secret decoder ring.

If everybody was treated fairly and equally, what reason would there be for overthrowing civilization exactly? Half-Life 2 getting delayed?

I'm gonna have to throw in here and say that, despite my apparent elitist, Pollyanaesque, do-gooder view on things, the simple fact is that for some people that would never be enough. It's a simple fact that some people are never satisfied with enough and always have to have more, be it for their own self-gratificiation or because they have some need to have morethan someone else.

Because of that, no matter how "nice" we are to other people (or nations) there will never be complete harmony. The usefullness as I see it is that by treating other nations with respect and rightousness, the chances are greater that in any given situation that we can rely on allies and those who "owe" us to stand by us and resolve situations that come up more or less peaceably.

As it stand now, the seemingly best "capital" we have is "because we said so" and "because if you don't, the 500 pound gorilla of the US economy will make things miserable for you."

Either way, it puts us in a position of demanding and arm-twisting for assistance instead of it being provided out of an agreed-upon desire for mutually beneficial goals.

All fine and well, from a practical standpoint, so long as we remain the 500 pound gorilla....

[noxiousdog]

If everybody was treated fairly and equally, what reason would there be for overthrowing civilization exactly? Half-Life 2 getting delayed?

Or maybe it would allow a million people to die in Dafour, or 100 Billion to be stolen from the UN, or half a million to die in Iraq. That's what playing by the rules gets you just in the last decade.

Some of the world's greatest civilizations lasted hundreds, maybe thousands of years. They still fell. We're only 228 years in and already raising the bar for hubris.

Oh sure. Napoleon, Caesar, Alexander, Cortes, and Bush. One of these conquerors is not like the others....

[The Meal]

I'm sure there are some innocents being detained, and to that I say, "The world sucks, don't it?" We've got innocent people in prison, good people die in car accidents. Babies are born with brain tumors. WTF else is new.

So human beings shouldn't try to play fair with each other? Wow, I'm happy I don't have such a jaded view of the world. I don't know how I could live with myself if I just gave a "life's tough" response to everyone who's having a (correctably) tough time with things.

~Neal

[noxiousdog]

As I offered The Meal and Dirt, find me a superpower that was a model of morality and I'll consider your position.

The lack of an ideal situation does not mean that our current situation cannot be improved.

~Neal

I'm not even looking for ideal. I'm simply looking for a single alternative.

[The Meal]

I'm not even looking for ideal. I'm simply looking for a single alternative.

The alternative is a government that would treat foreigners fairly.

~Neal

[Mr. Sparkle]

If everybody was treated fairly and equally, what reason would there be for overthrowing civilization exactly? Half-Life 2 getting delayed?

Or maybe it would allow a million people to die in Dafour, or 100 Billion to be stolen from the UN, or half a million to die in Iraq. That's what playing by the rules gets you just in the last decade.

I don't remember ever claiming that the UN was "fair and equal".

However, the Geneva conventions do make a fair stab at that ideal, which is what is being flouted in this case.

There was a pretty good reason why they were drafted, and it's probably not a bad idea to keep that shit in mind.

EDIT: flaunted-flouted-beh

[LawBeefaroni]

Some of the world's greatest civilizations lasted hundreds, maybe thousands of years. They still fell. We're only 228 years in and already raising the bar for hubris.

Oh sure. Napoleon, Caesar, Alexander, Cortes, and Bush. One of these conquerors is not like the others....

Bush? Where do you get Bush from. Annointed by God as he may be, I'm talking about the US. Call it a country or empire, but not one man.

It's interesting that you'd put him up there with the world's conquering elite, though.

[noxiousdog]

I'm not even looking for ideal. I'm simply looking for a single alternative.

The alternative is a government that would treat foreigners fairly.

~Neal

So where has it worked that 100% of foreigners were treated 'fairly'?

[noxiousdog]

I don't remember ever claiming that the UN was "fair and equal".

No, you're saying we need to play by the rules. By doing so, we allow all three of the above to happen. We ignore the genocide in Dufour because the UN won't label it genocide. We enable the UN to pillage the Oil-for-food program while we have 10 years of sanctions, and we allow 500,000 to die in Iraq while waiting for the UN to get really serious this time.

However, the Geneva conventions do make a fair stab at that ideal, which is what is being flouted in this case.

There was a pretty good reason why they were drafted, and it's probably not a bad idea to keep that shit in mind.

EDIT: flaunted-flouted-beh

You incorrectly assume that Guantanamo detainies qualify for the Geneva convention. You also incorrectly assume that the Geneva convention isn't broken repeatedly.

[noxiousdog]

Some of the world's greatest civilizations lasted hundreds, maybe thousands of years. They still fell. We're only 228 years in and already raising the bar for hubris.

Oh sure. Napoleon, Caesar, Alexander, Cortes, and Bush. One of these conquerors is not like the others....

Bush? Where do you get Bush from. Annointed by God as he may be, I'm talking about the US. Call it a country or empire, but not one man.

It's interesting that you'd put him up there with the world's conquering elite, though.

What are you talking about, because I've obviously missed your point?

[hepcat]

The people who worked at Camp Delta, the main prison facility, said that one regular procedure was making uncooperative prisoners strip to their underwear, having them sit in a chair while shackled hand and foot to a bolt in the floor, and forcing them to endure strobe lights and loud rock and rap music played through two close loudspeakers, while the air-conditioning was turned up to maximum levels.

This sounds like a Saturday night from my college days!

I think you're mistaking your college days for time spent in a Gay Bath House again...

[Mr. Sparkle]

I don't remember ever claiming that the UN was "fair and equal".

No, you're saying we need to play by the rules. By doing so, we allow all three of the above to happen. We ignore the genocide in Dufour because the UN won't label it genocide. We enable the UN to pillage the Oil-for-food program while we have 10 years of sanctions, and we allow 500,000 to die in Iraq while waiting for the UN to get really serious this time.

We ignore the genocide in Dufour because we choose to. We ignored Iraq as well. Is it the UN's fault that we chose not to lead? I've never debated that we are the 500lb gorilla.

The pillaging of the Oil-for-Food program was breaking the rules.

However, the Geneva conventions do make a fair stab at that ideal, which is what is being flouted in this case.

There was a pretty good reason why they were drafted, and it's probably not a bad idea to keep that shit in mind.

EDIT: flaunted-flouted-beh

You incorrectly assume that Guantanamo detainies qualify for the Geneva convention. You also incorrectly assume that the Geneva convention isn't broken repeatedly.

You incorrectly assume that I give a damn as to whether or not a lawyer can write a legal opinion that puts them outside the definition of POW.

There are reasons why you don't treat people that way.

I mean, fuck, suspected terrorists are subhuman right? Instead of torturing them for fun, why don't we use them for medical research? You know, do the shit we could never get away with doing on Americans... at least then we might learn something, since they have zero intelligence to provide us.

[The Meal]

I'm not even looking for ideal. I'm simply looking for a single alternative.

The alternative is a government that would treat foreigners fairly.

~Neal

So where has it worked that 100% of foreigners were treated 'fairly'?

Why must I come up with some other example for our doing it to be wrong? Why do you want to slog this down in semantics? I'm seeing my government do something that is clearly ethically wrong. I could give two shits what other governments do. MY GOVERNMENT is fucking up and I don't appreciate it. Even worse, I see other people defending it as being okay because "everybody else does it too." Bzzzt! That excuse doesn't work with my eleven year old daughter, I'm certainly not going to give my government a pass on it.

~Neal

[SuperHiro]

I'm not even looking for ideal. I'm simply looking for a single alternative.

The alternative is a government that would treat foreigners fairly.

~Neal

So where has it worked that 100% of foreigners were treated 'fairly'?

Why must I come up with some other example for our doing it to be wrong? Why do you want to slog this down in semantics? I'm seeing my government do something that is clearly ethically wrong. I could give two shits what other governments do. MY GOVERNMENT is fucking up and I don't appreciate it. Even worse, I see other people defending it as being okay because "everybody else does it too." Bzzzt! That excuse doesn't work with my eleven year old daughter, I'm certainly not going to give my government a pass on it.

~Neal

You forgot the "tough shit" defense.

[The Meal]

You forgot the "tough shit" defense.

Based on how much that one depresses me, you bet I'm trying to forget it.

~Neal

[Exodor]

3. Foreign terrorists are subject to any treatment we should choose to dish out as far as I am concerned.

Super!

Except that not everyone held at Gitmo was a terrorist.

WASHINGTON -- Four British detainees who spent more than two years in captivity in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, before being released, are now suing U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other officials, saying they were tortured.

The suit, announced Wednesday at a Washington media conference, seeks $10 million in damages and charges the Pentagon chain of command authorized and condoned torture in violation of the Alien Tort Statue, the U.S. Constitution and the Geneva Conventions.

What about people held without representation for two years, suffer torture, and then (whoops!) turn out not to be terrorists?

Tough shit for them, I guess.


I think what Meal and others are arguing is that we're supposed to be the good guys. It's the "other" governments that hold political prisoners, torture detainees and violate human rights willy-nilly.

The lead counsul for the case above put it pretty succinctly:

Torture is not American, it's un-American; arbitrary detention is un-American and what these young men have suffered and continue to suffer is something for which we, the American justice system, need to hold these people accountable

[CSL]

The lead counsul for the case above put it pretty succinctly:

Torture is not American, it's un-American; arbitrary detention is un-American and what these young men have suffered and continue to suffer is something for which we, the American justice system, need to hold these people accountable

Agree totally, it boogles my mind that American citizens would support the torture of subject without representation, or proof of doing any illegal deeds, being terrorists, etc.

Its quite a shame that any of you would support that.

[Fireball]

1. Justice for the detainees is not our goal.

If we are to be a just nation, then we should treat even our prisoners justly. This means trying them, not holding them indefinitely. This means not torturing them, though aggressive interrogation is not a problem.

[Dirt]

I can't believe there's even debate about this. People are being detained and tortured (however mildly) with no right to a hearing or even to know what the charges are against them, and this is jsutice? On what basis do we know these guys are terrorists? Intelligence? Psychological profiling? Funny hairdos?

Even if we knew for certain they were evil murderers, America treats its own homegrown death row mass murderers better than this. Some of the most evil twisted fucks out there are quietly and safely rotting in jail, with no torture applied and their futures clear as crysta; meanwhile, in some island camp somewhere, potentially innocent people are being tortured, brutalised and they might not even know why.

Poleaxe, YK, DD: Doesn't in scare you in the slightest that the government thinks this is an ok way to carry on? Do you really believe that any trrorist is fair game for whatver you want to throw at him, in spite of the very principles on which your nation was founded? Do you believe the same of people who are merely suspected terrorists?

Sheesh.

1. Justice for the detainees is not our goal.

2. SCOTUS has interpreted the constitution to not protect non-citizens on foreign soil.

3. Foreign terrorists are subject to any treatment we should choose to dish out as far as I am concerned.

4. Americans enjoy the protection of the constitution. Non-americans do not. And should not.

1. Justice for all is a foundation of our Democracy.

2. How inconvenient for the people at Gitmo.

3. Someone else has already answered this.

4. Non-Americans enjoy the protection of the Geneva Convention which, I believe America signed.

[Fireball]

The lead counsul for the case above put it pretty succinctly:

Torture is not American, it's un-American; arbitrary detention is un-American and what these young men have suffered and continue to suffer is something for which we, the American justice system, need to hold these people accountable

Agree totally, it boogles my mind that American citizens would support the torture of subject without representation, or proof of doing any illegal deeds, being terrorists, etc.

Its quite a shame that any of you would support that.

What we have here is the shameful realization that some folks really are stupid enough to think that "my country right or wrong" is a patriotic sentiment.

The heart of patriotism is criticizing your own nation when it fails to stand for the ideals it claims to cherish. The anti-Americans here who are applauding the flaunting of the American ideal of the inherent rights and dignity of all human beings are small men who, in the balance, are little better than the terrorists they think they are opposing.

[noxiousdog]

Why must I come up with some other example for our doing it to be wrong? Why do you want to slog this down in semantics? I'm seeing my government do something that is clearly ethically wrong. I could give two shits what other governments do. MY GOVERNMENT is fucking up and I don't appreciate it. Even worse, I see other people defending it as being okay because "everybody else does it too." Bzzzt! That excuse doesn't work with my eleven year old daughter, I'm certainly not going to give my government a pass on it.

~Neal

This is what I don't understand. YOUR GOVERNMENT is incapable of doing everything that you want it to WITHOUT doing immoral things. It is impossible, at least by 10,000 years of human history.

Now, if there is some example of ANY government doing everything (hell even most of what) you want it to without doing immoral things, I'd love to see and endorse it. In fact I'd be right there on the bandwagon.

But until that time I feel this ranks right up there with stealing land from the Native Americans. It sucks; I wish it didn't happen; but unfortunately that's the price you have to pay for living the life you lead.