And here is why atheists go too far.... (pictures)

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:34 pm

I'm a deist at best, so don't go down the religious right path with me.

I found this on Ann Althouse's blog and it bothers me more every year.

She has some pictures of the state capitol in Madison, Wisconson:

Notice the festive wreaths on the balcony.

Inside the capitol a magificent tree:

In fact, it extends to the second floor of the building:

What does this have to do with atheists?

In order to placate them, there is a sign:

Christmas worked just fine for me growing up. My mom took us to Catholic church, and it was my dad's (agnostic at best) absolute favorite time of the year. I don't care what you call it, Christmas is not JUST a religious holiday. It's about family, and giving, and crass commercialism. It's about looking back on the year, stockings, and trees. It's about looking at lights and staying up late curled up on the couch.

I'm sick and tired of hearing 'Holiday Party.' I'm tired of people outlawing Christmas trees because they might offend someone. I'm tired of minorities (atheists in this case) being allowed to be offensive to the majority and it's accepted.

I want my Christmas back and I want it until I'm dead and buried.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:38 pm

I bet athiests know how to use ubb tags.

Placard seems a bit harsh (ie non-neutral) but meh, it's Madison. What do you expect?

Eel Snave · Post by **Eel Snave** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:44 pm

Yeah, that's my state. Remember, we were a blue state, and getting bluer every year. Fittingly, blue is also the color you turn when you do not have any oxygen to your brain.

Just funning with you! Please do not flame me, for I am young and shall be burnt to a crisp.

Dirt · Post by **Dirt** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:07 pm

You realize that Christmas is a pagan holiday?

Exodor · Post by **Exodor** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:09 pm

Sign seems a bit unnecessary, since the tree is a pagan symbol with little to no real connection to the Christian celebration.

A sign saying something like "Please enjoy the Winter Holiday decorations here at the Capitol!" would seem more reasonable.

That sign seems designed to piss off religious folks, Christians especially.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:15 pm

Dirt wrote:You realize that Christmas is a pagan holiday?

You do realize I'm not a Christian?

The Emperor · Post by **The Emperor** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:37 pm

True believers, of any persuasion, always go too far.

Weak atheism all the way for me, but I don't go around calling Christians, deists, or Church of the New Saucerites foolish, either.

If you don't have anything nice to say, keep it to yourself? That's pretty Christmas-spirity.

jblank · Post by **jblank** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:46 pm

I'm not religious, and even I am offended by that sign. Who is the state government of Wisconsin to say that anything on that sign is true? Are they the be all end all when it comes to religious beliefs and discussions? What an afront this is, to anyone that has any, and I do mean ANY, belief in a higher power. How dare they take such a non neutral, overtly hostile stand, on an issue like relgion. Its almost like they bend over TOO FAR, when it comes to religion, and actually go beyond neutrality, into overt hostility towards people that have those beliefs, in an effort to pacify a certain group.

Its the Christmas season, not Winter Solstice, or whatever bullshit they wanna call it. If you dont like it, deal with it, but you dont have to be religious to celebrate the season, and people are well within their right to just ignore the whole thing, and treat December 25th like any other day if thats your wish. But dont piss all over it, force its name to not be spoken, and treat people that have a special meaning for Christmas as idiots, like this sign does.

Just a shame, a real shame.

Mr. Fed · Post by **Mr. Fed** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:46 pm

I'm sick and tired of hearing 'Holiday Party.' I'm tired of people outlawing Christmas trees because they might offend someone. I'm tired of minorities (atheists in this case) being allowed to be offensive to the majority and it's accepted.

I want my Christmas back and I want it until I'm dead and buried.

Look, the sign is extraordinarily snide, superior, and obnoxious. If it has the purpose of casting atheists in a good light, it fails miserably -- it suggests that these atheists, at least, are assholes.

But I don't find it nearly as distasteful as the notion that there is something wrong with "minorities being allowed to be offensive to the majority." That's the marketplace of ideas. Plenty of the stalls are run by assholes. Where do you get that it is "accepted," except in the sense that it is permitted?

The blog doesn't make it clear how the sign came to be there. I suspect they threw the "holiday" display open to anyone who wanted to contribute, in part out of a sense that it would ward off any Establishment Clause challenge. That's not the same as acceptance of the message.

Somebody's contribution to a seasonal display was offensive? OK. So be it. Plenty of people find Christmas displays offensive -- either because they tend to reflect commercial bastardization of the significance of the celebration of Christ's nativity, or because they find the the implied message of the religious holiday -- here's Christ, who is our Savior, and the only route to salvation, without Whom we are damned. The notion that Christmas displays are value-neutral is questionable at best.

As for "holiday parties," look: there's lots of Jews and atheists, and a not-inconsiderable number of Hindus, Muslims, and others, out there. What's the big deal about making the choice to name a party in an inclusive name? To me, having a fit over someone else calling something a "holiday party" is no better than having a fit over calling it a "Christmas party."

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:58 pm

How come my Christmas trees never look that good?

Poleaxe · Post by **Poleaxe** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:11 pm

Mr. Fed wrote:
I'm sick and tired of hearing 'Holiday Party.' I'm tired of people outlawing Christmas trees because they might offend someone. I'm tired of minorities (atheists in this case) being allowed to be offensive to the majority and it's accepted.

I want my Christmas back and I want it until I'm dead and buried.
Look, the sign is extraordinarily snide, superior, and obnoxious. If it has the purpose of casting atheists in a good light, it fails miserably -- it suggests that these atheists, at least, are assholes.

But I don't find it nearly as distasteful as the notion that there is something wrong with "minorities being allowed to be offensive to the majority." That's the marketplace of ideas. Plenty of the stalls are run by assholes. Where do you get that it is "accepted," except in the sense that it is permitted?

The blog doesn't make it clear how the sign came to be there. I suspect they threw the "holiday" display open to anyone who wanted to contribute, in part out of a sense that it would ward off any Establishment Clause challenge. That's not the same as acceptance of the message.

Somebody's contribution to a seasonal display was offensive? OK. So be it. Plenty of people find Christmas displays offensive -- either because they tend to reflect commercial bastardization of the significance of the celebration of Christ's nativity, or because they find the the implied message of the religious holiday -- here's Christ, who is our Savior, and the only route to salvation, without Whom we are damned. The notion that Christmas displays are value-neutral is questionable at best.

As for "holiday parties," look: there's lots of Jews and atheists, and a not-inconsiderable number of Hindus, Muslims, and others, out there. What's the big deal about making the choice to name a party in an inclusive name? To me, having a fit over someone else calling something a "holiday party" is no better than having a fit over calling it a "Christmas party."

That's an answer from the lawyer and the idealist parts of your brain. Now what does your inner child say?

Mine says, "I love christmas, why do we have to fight about the best time of the year? Could we save our political correctness and personal axe grinding for the other 11 months, please. And I hope I get an Xbox this year!"

Mr. Fed · Post by **Mr. Fed** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:13 pm

Actually, my inner child remembers when a nun reprimanded me, as a young child, for making cards that said "happy holidays" to a Muslim friend and a Jewish friend, telling me I was sinning and denying Christ.

Poleaxe · Post by **Poleaxe** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:18 pm

Mr. Fed wrote:Actually, my inner child remembers when a nun reprimanded me, as a young child, for making cards that said "happy holidays" to a Muslim friend and a Jewish friend, telling me I was sinning and denying Christ.

Way to depress my inner child. Bad day?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:58 pm

Dirt wrote:You realize that Christmas is a pagan holiday?

Actually, Christmas isn't pagan. It is a Christian holiday that has some leftover pagan symbolism. As to the holiday that falls around December 25th - it is pagan. It is also Christian. In fact, practically every northern hemisphere religion before and after the rise of Christianity has had a holiday at about that time. For northern cultures, it is the day at which the winter is coldest, at which night is longest, the point at which the year turns around, where people surviving on rationed, preserved food could say "We're past the halfway point! We're can make it to spring!". Almost everybody throughout history has celebrated this day.

Since it doesn't really have any ownership, the name isn't really important. None of us can claim that ours is the original name for the holiday. You can call it Christmas if you want, while I call it Yule, or Mother Night, or Pleasant Gift Day, or whatever. It is just a name.

That said, I have a feeling that a lot more people would argue if the state courthouse put up a Pagan Mass Tree.

Dirt · Post by **Dirt** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:58 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Dirt wrote:You realize that Christmas is a pagan holiday?
You do realize I'm not a Christian?

So, why would you deny anyone their own realization of what the month of December means to them even if it means nothing?

Interloper · Post by **Interloper** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:16 pm

I know that the airport I work at just came out and said there will be NO christmas music at all this year as they don't want to offend anyone. When pushed, they said that they got a few, yes just a few letters of complaint about it last year. Well most everyone I run across asks about why there is no christmas music and I tell them and then give them the address to write to complain about it

I bet it's changed next year.

Enough · Post by **Enough** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:25 pm

Poleaxe wrote:
Mr. Fed wrote:Actually, my inner child remembers when a nun reprimanded me, as a young child, for making cards that said "happy holidays" to a Muslim friend and a Jewish friend, telling me I was sinning and denying Christ.
Way to depress my inner child. Bad day?

loc-nar · Post by **loc-nar** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:07 pm

Interloper wrote:I know that the airport I work at just came out and said there will be NO christmas music at all this year as they don't want to offend anyone. When pushed, they said that they got a few, yes just a few letters of complaint about it last year. Well most everyone I run across asks about why there is no christmas music and I tell them and then give them the address to write to complain about it I bet it's changed next year.

I can't believe anyone would actually complain about the lack of christmas music.

christmas music just about drives me bugshit every year.

Poleaxe · Post by **Poleaxe** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:10 pm

Enough wrote:
Poleaxe wrote:
Mr. Fed wrote:Actually, my inner child remembers when a nun reprimanded me, as a young child, for making cards that said "happy holidays" to a Muslim friend and a Jewish friend, telling me I was sinning and denying Christ.
Way to depress my inner child. Bad day?

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:23 pm

jblank wrote:I'm not religious, and even I am offended by that sign. Who is the state government of Wisconsin to say that anything on that sign is true? Are they the be all end all when it comes to religious beliefs and discussions? What an afront this is, to anyone that has any, and I do mean ANY, belief in a higher power. How dare they take such a non neutral, overtly hostile stand, on an issue like relgion. Its almost like they bend over TOO FAR, when it comes to religion, and actually go beyond neutrality, into overt hostility towards people that have those beliefs, in an effort to pacify a certain group.

Its the Christmas season, not Winter Solstice, or whatever bullshit they wanna call it. If you dont like it, deal with it, but you dont have to be religious to celebrate the season, and people are well within their right to just ignore the whole thing, and treat December 25th like any other day if thats your wish. But dont piss all over it, force its name to not be spoken, and treat people that have a special meaning for Christmas as idiots, like this sign does.

Just a shame, a real shame.

Indead. I'm not very religious, but I have many friends who are and I'm offended on their behalf. I don't see them as idiots for their beliefs, and I don't think my or your tax money should be used to call them idiots or week minded. Respect for religious freedoms should prevent this kind of crappola!

So to them I send an xmas greeting

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:28 pm

Interloper wrote:I know that the airport I work at just came out and said there will be NO christmas music at all this year as they don't want to offend anyone. When pushed, they said that they got a few, yes just a few letters of complaint about it last year. Well most everyone I run across asks about why there is no christmas music and I tell them and then give them the address to write to complain about it I bet it's changed next year.

Great idea, maybe someone needs to write an editorial about it including that address

msduncan · Post by **msduncan** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:36 pm

It's time for the very small minority to stop being a tyranny over the majority.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:11 pm

If you can get whoever wrote that sign to my house by Xmas we'll sacrifice them on our Xmas alter.

Poleaxe · Post by **Poleaxe** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:20 pm

dbt1949 wrote:If you can get whoever wrote that sign to my house by Xmas we'll sacrifice them on our Xmas alter.

Have I ever mentioned my mother-in-law...

Yankeeman84 · Post by **Yankeeman84** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:40 pm

I have to say this is the most stupid thing I have ever seen. I am a Christian and if we did something like this that offended atheists, it would already be in the Supreme Court by 5PM. I am seeing a double-standard in modern times and I am not enjoying it but I live with it.

This is just another cheap shot to undermind Christmas and to make Christians feel sorry for offending other religions and beliefs.

Losers!

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:45 pm

That sign doesn't just cross the seperation of church and state as much as bulldoze it.

Spock's Brain · Post by **Spock's Brain** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:30 pm

Heh, that sign's a classic manifestation of Village Atheist Syndrome.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:33 am

I don't believe that sign was put there by the govt. It says 'Freedom from Religion Foundation' at the bottom.

Take the blinders off Yankeeman. You can't turn around during the holidays without seeing angels, or crosses, or nativity scenes. I think the sign goes too far, but don't think that atheists are the only ones getting their way.

Ale

Quaro · Post by **Quaro** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:48 am

I hate atheists like that. Not as bad as posting the 10 commandments in the courthouse at least.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:55 am

Was that sign really there? Couldn't find much about it on a quick google search but that doesn't mean much. It's just such a silly thing for a State gov to put up due to the controversy it would generate.

Yankeeman84 · Post by **Yankeeman84** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:13 am

Ale, I am just speaking the truth.

If the sign would have said Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, it would have gone to the court. Everything that has the word God, Jesus, Christmas, etc, has been attacked in court.

Cant people just enjoy Christmas anymore?

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:28 am

jblank wrote:I'm not religious, and even I am offended by that sign. Who is the state government of Wisconsin to say that anything on that sign is true?

They're not saying anything. The way this undoubtedly came about is that they're giving "fair time" to various points of view. I bet a Christian group provided the decorations celebrating and commemorating their religious holiday, so a non-religious group was allowed to put up a sign professing their point of view. The state itself is not standing behind or laying the mantle of truth upon either.

The message is horribly worded and fairly offensive, and the group that put it there is doing themselves a disservice. But if the state is going to open its buildings up to expressions of religious faith, then that includes expressions from those who have no religion and who disagree with it or whatever. Sadly, the people doing the expressing here are assholes.

But so are the folks who put up big billboards saying you'll go to Hell if you're not on Team Jesus. And even moreso are the folks trying to destroy America's educational system by polluting it with religious myths. At least this sign, however tactless and inappropriate it might be, isn't actually harming anyone.

Its the Christmas season, not Winter Solstice, or whatever bullshit they wanna call it.

Sorry, but you're wrong. It is both the Christmas season and the Winter Solstice season. And the Hannukah season. And the Kwanza season, whatever Kwanza is. Thus, "Holiday Season" is a fair, equitable and inclusive term. Inclusiveness is a virtue.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:28 am

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:31 am

Poleaxe wrote:That's an answer from the lawyer and the idealist parts of your brain. Now what does your inner child say?

So public policy should be set by what's acceptable to your inner child? That's ludicrous.

What about the inner children of non-Christians who always felt left out and looked down on during "Christmas season," but whose kids aren't specifically excluded anymore now that it's the "holiday season."

But that's right, they don't count. Because as we all know, Christians are the persecuted people in America.

Yankeeman84 · Post by **Yankeeman84** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:42 am

No, Christians are the majority of Americans. Majority rules. Why is it now incorrect to celebrate just 1 fuckin day of the year like we have since 1776 and before? Why do the majority have to cater to everyone else? Why do we have to politicize every damn holiday. Shit what is gonna be next? Are we gonna quit celebrating Valentine's Day cause the buddist monks cant get married and have to be celebate?

Most Americans are weak minded individuals. God only knows that if something life threatening ever happened to them what they would do! Its not like a Christmas tree is going to make them have a nuclear melt down, emit radiation and spit acid.

Kirk, I think jblank was implying that putting a sign like that next to a Christmas tree is like taping a sign to the crucifix saying "fuck you". You know it is a slap in the face of Christians to have something like that p.o.s. sign right next to a common symbol of our holiday and you applaude it. Again, if an atheist put up something like that and a Christian did something next to it, there would be a public outcry and a supreme court decision.

OVERREACTION !!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know the country is going to hell when you begin to politicize religious holidays. The single day when we are supposed to put aside politics for 24 hours and celebrate the birth of Christ but it looks like we cant do that anymore!

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:57 am

Yankeeman84 wrote:No, Christians are the majority of Americans. Majority rules.

Not in this country. In this country the Constitution prevents the majority from running roughshod over minorities. Just because a group has 50% plus one does not give it dictatorial power. Anyone who knows anything about America knows this.

Why is it now incorrect to celebrate just 1 fuckin day of the year like we have since 1776 and before?

No one is stopping you from celebrating Christmas. Celebrate Christmas. I celebrate Christmas. I can't say my Christmas experiences have been lessened by the fact that my office has a holiday party instead of a Christmas party.

How does having a holiday party that acknowledges Hannukah, Christmas and other contemporaneous holidays somehow cheapen your Christmas?

Shit what is gonna be next? Are we gonna quit celebrating Valentine's Day cause the buddist monks cant get married and have to be celebate?

Last I checked, no one has been forced to stop celebrating Christmas. Or does celebrating Christmas require the ignoring of other religions' contemporaneous holidays?

Kirk, I think jblank was implying that putting a sign like that next to a Christmas tree is like taping a sign to the crucifix saying "fuck you".

Freedom of speech means freedom of speech. The message wasn't vulgar. It wasn't polite, and I think the people who put it there are idiots, but there's no getting around equality, no matter how much you may hate it.

If the Christian groups get to put up a huge tree, angels and everything else, then letting the atheists put up a little sign is perfectly reasonable, even if the way the sentiments on the sign are expressed are not.

Again, if an atheist put up something like that and a Christian did something next to it, there would be a public outcry and a supreme court decision.

No there wouldn't. As evidenced by the fact that the Christians already have their huge ass tree and angels and stuff. Christians are NOT persecuted in this country. Not one damn bit.

The single day when we are supposed to put aside politics for 24 hours and celebrate the birth of Christ but it looks like we cant do that anymore!

Who is this "we"? Not all Americans, that's for sure, because many don't recognize Christ's divinity and many don't believe he existed. And what does Christmas have to do with putting aside politics? I'm certainly more well-read Biblically than you are, and I've never seen that in the New Testament. Of course, virtually nothing about the way we celebrate Christmas is from the Bible.

D'Arcy · Post by **D'Arcy** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:03 am

Fireball1244 wrote:Inclusiveness is a virtue.

I have difficulties parsing that statement. Could you define "inclusiveness" and "virtue", please?

The Mad Hatter · Post by **The Mad Hatter** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:39 am

Yankeeman84 wrote: You know the country is going to hell when you begin to politicize religious holidays. The single day when we are supposed to put aside politics for 24 hours and celebrate the birth of Christ but it looks like we cant do that anymore!

Is that plaque somehow preventing you from celebrating the birth of Christ? Is someone saying "season's greetings" instead of "merry Christmas" denigrating your beliefs?

The plaque is offensive, but in a sea of religious fundamentalism and ignorant faith it's nice to see the counterview stated somewhere.

Poleaxe · Post by **Poleaxe** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:24 am

Fireball1244 wrote:
Poleaxe wrote:That's an answer from the lawyer and the idealist parts of your brain. Now what does your inner child say?
So public policy should be set by what's acceptable to your inner child? That's ludicrous.

What about the inner children of non-Christians who always felt left out and looked down on during "Christmas season," but whose kids aren't specifically excluded anymore now that it's the "holiday season."

But that's right, they don't count. Because as we all know, Christians are the persecuted people in America. :roll:

Nancy-

Calm down. Do you really believe that my appeal to Fed's inner child was a serious attempt at reasoned discussion? I was simply making the point that Christmas is more about winter wonderlands and Xboxes even to most christians than it is about the birth of Jesus.

Since my light-hearted post was not taken as such, let me get more serious- and I might even mention the last election.

Nativity scenes and the north star are as iconic as "In God We Trust" on the money. So much so, that in public displays they rarely inspired thoughts of religion as much as invoked thoughts of the holiday season for any but the ultra religious who tend to be on the fringe. The christmas tree isn't even a religious symbol- at least not a christian symbol.

When athiests, or those of other religions, attack the symbols of christmas, moderate christians and even non-christians tend to see it more as an attack on the culture than an attack on religion because they never really attached religious importance to the symbols anyway. Other than a prayer before dinner, the gift-giving/home decorating/Santa Clause part of the holiday is generally separate from the birth of christ part. So when those who obviously inhabit a fringe area of american political life, and believe me athiests who feel the need to sue govt. entities over the angel at the top of the christmas tree are fringe, start retaining lawyers to attack the symbols we all associate with the best times of youth they come of as... well, grinches.

Democrats have thrashed around post election in an attempt to understand the whole "values" thing. I think they have wrongly concluded that it is about religion. In part, I think they base this conclusion on the results in various states of balloting on gay marriage. When results show 65-70% against gay marriage it seems obvious that more than just the religious right flexing their muscles is at work. Now contrast those results with polls which show that a majority of Americans support civil unions, and you must conclude that cultural values are in play here as well as religious values. I believe that while moderates in this country tend to be liberal on social issues, they are conservative when it comes to traditional cultural values. To use gay marriage again, moderates recognize the injustice of not affording homosexuals the legal protections that come with marriage, but they are far from ready to open the specific institution of marriage to homosexuals.

So... I think all of us here recognize that attacking christmas displays on public property is on sound legal footing. But the legal victories are pyrrhic as the behavior exibited in attacking them simply pushes moderates to the right in disgust.

Poleaxe · Post by **Poleaxe** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:28 am

Fireball1244 wrote:
Mr. Fed wrote:Actually, my inner child remembers when a nun reprimanded me, as a young child, for making cards that said "happy holidays" to a Muslim friend and a Jewish friend, telling me I was sinning and denying Christ.
What a bitch.

Yeah, I thought his response was kind of bitchy, too.