Canada to legalize same sex marriage

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Exodor
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Re: Working in an art gallery for 12 years didn't make me ga

Post by Exodor »

Dirt wrote:
Exodor wrote:
Dirt wrote:Of course it's central. We're not an asexual species, we need 1 male and 1 female to reproduce.

When did reproductive capability become a requirement for marriage?
Then why have marriage at all if we all just reproduce without the institution of marriage?
Answer my question first.

Is the ability to reproduce a requirement for marriage?


While you're at it, answer Al's question too:
What compelling reason does a secular government like the United States' have for banning same sex marriages?
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Fireball
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Re: Working in an art gallery for 12 years didn't make me ga

Post by Fireball »

Dirt wrote:
Exodor wrote:
Dirt wrote:Of course it's central. We're not an asexual species, we need 1 male and 1 female to reproduce.

When did reproductive capability become a requirement for marriage?
Then why have marriage at all if we all just reproduce without the institution of marriage?
Marriage is a stabilizing institution that imbues society with a degree of order and predictability. Marriage combines two persons into one legal unit, making both stronger and more durable members of society, as one can help the other (with government support, no less) during times of crisis. Marriage builds society into stable units, and grounds its members to the culture at large by increasing their "stake" in the system. All of this, yes, serves to make marriage a fairly optimal environment for raising children, but the ability or intention to raise children is not a prerequisite for marriage in the United States, nor (IIRC) has it ever been.

What sort of logic is there in denying gays the rights to marry each other because they cannot procreate when we allow non-procreative heterosexuals to marry?

Should we also ban marriage for the infertile? For those past menopause?
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
Padre
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Post by Padre »

For me, marriage and the family were never about procreation - people seem to be able to get along with that just fine without being married, or outside of their marriages.

What the family about, and marriage helps with, is child rearing. Good child rearing requires the continual attention of a stable couple. This was true for the Neanderthals and it is true today. Single parents can do well, of course, but no-one will deny that it is hard. A two person model is greatly to be preferred.

However, there is no reason why these two people cannot be of the same sex. Not now that milk can be attained from places other than nipples, anyhow.
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Al
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Don't milk the bull!

Post by Al »

Padre wrote:Not now that milk can be attained from places other than nipples, anyhow.
Wait. Cow milk doesn't come from nipples?

That's it, I'm switching my daughter to juice.
Padre
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Re: Don't milk the bull!

Post by Padre »

Al wrote:
Padre wrote:Not now that milk can be attained from places other than nipples, anyhow.
Wait. Cow milk doesn't come from nipples?

That's it, I'm switching my daughter to juice.
Human nipples.

Ahem.
Tareeq
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Post by Tareeq »

Mr. Fed wrote:I'm not aware that either Canada nor the United States arrests anyone for participating in multi-party sexual relationships
They do for the sexual relationship in question.

And purely as a matter of semantics, aren't all sexual relationships multi-party? With whom would a chronic masturbator share those government benefits?
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Defiant
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Post by Defiant »

Tareeq wrote: With whom would a chronic masturbator share those government benefits?
That question is a handful. :)
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Post by Tareeq »

Nade wrote:That question is a handful. :)
Do I get credit for the assist?
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Exodor
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Post by Exodor »

In other news...

Israel provides legal recognition to same-sex couples
Israel's attorney general has granted legal recognition to same-sex couples in financial and other business matters, his office said Wednesday, prompting an outcry from some ultra-Orthodox Jews, who consider the decision sacrilegious. Atty. Gen. Meni Mazuz said the couples will be treated the same as common-law spouses, recognizing them as legal units for tax, real estate, and financial purposes.
:)


EDIT - while we're at it...

New Zealand grants civil union rights to gay couples
Legal recognition of same-sex partnerships became law today, and from April 26 next year couples can commit themselves to the new civil union.
And yet our President continues to pursue enshrining discrminiation in our constitution. :roll:
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Fireball
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Post by Fireball »

Yeah, Andrew Sullivan pointed out today that at the rate things are going, America is going to be the only major developed nation that's still treating its gay citizens like dangerous lepers.

Damn it, we've even been lapped by South Africa on this issue. Let me repeat that: South Africa is more progressive than America on this issue. For shame.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
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Defiant
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Post by Defiant »

Tareeq wrote:
Nade wrote:That question is a handful. :)
Do I get credit for the assist?
Sure! :)
Fireball1244 wrote:Yeah, Andrew Sullivan pointed out today that at the rate things are going, America is going to be the only major developed nation that's still treating its gay citizens like dangerous lepers.
Don't forget Po... Australia.
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RodeoRanch
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Post by RodeoRanch »

I wonder what most of the provinces will think of this.

I know the Alberta gov't will be spoiling for a fight with Ottawa over the issue.
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The Mad Hatter
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Post by The Mad Hatter »

RodeoRanch wrote:I wonder what most of the provinces will think of this.

I know the Alberta gov't will be spoiling for a fight with Ottawa over the issue.
Actually, I heard the justice minister of Alberta interviewed on CBC tonight. He basically conceded the jurisdiction issue to Ottawa and said concerned Albertans should be talking to their MPs, because any further battles on this issue will come when the federal bill is tabled.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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CSL
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Post by CSL »

The Mad Hatter wrote:
RodeoRanch wrote:I wonder what most of the provinces will think of this.

I know the Alberta gov't will be spoiling for a fight with Ottawa over the issue.
Actually, I heard the justice minister of Alberta interviewed on CBC tonight. He basically conceded the jurisdiction issue to Ottawa and said concerned Albertans should be talking to their MPs, because any further battles on this issue will come when the federal bill is tabled.
And I for one hope the MPs make the right decision and not listen to those people.
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RodeoRanch
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Post by RodeoRanch »

CSL wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:
RodeoRanch wrote:I wonder what most of the provinces will think of this.

I know the Alberta gov't will be spoiling for a fight with Ottawa over the issue.
Actually, I heard the justice minister of Alberta interviewed on CBC tonight. He basically conceded the jurisdiction issue to Ottawa and said concerned Albertans should be talking to their MPs, because any further battles on this issue will come when the federal bill is tabled.
And I for one hope the MPs make the right decision and not listen to those people.
Isn't that an MP's job, even if he/she personally disagrees with the people's position?

I know my MP, Myron Thompson is pretty set against gay marriages.

I've wrestled with the concept and come to conclusion that it's none my damned business if two consenting adults want to get married. Personally, I don't much care for homosexuality but I then again, I don't like eating fish either. That sure as hell doesn't make it wrong for people to do it or enable me to force my gov't to stop folks from eating fish!
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Re: Working in an art gallery for 12 years didn't make me ga

Post by noxiousdog »

Dirt wrote: Then why have marriage at all if we all just reproduce without the institution of marriage?
Because we want to?
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Post by Fireball »

RodeoRanch wrote:
CSL wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:
RodeoRanch wrote:I wonder what most of the provinces will think of this.

I know the Alberta gov't will be spoiling for a fight with Ottawa over the issue.
Actually, I heard the justice minister of Alberta interviewed on CBC tonight. He basically conceded the jurisdiction issue to Ottawa and said concerned Albertans should be talking to their MPs, because any further battles on this issue will come when the federal bill is tabled.
And I for one hope the MPs make the right decision and not listen to those people.
Isn't that an MP's job, even if he/she personally disagrees with the people's position?
Nope. It is NOT the job of an elected representative to merely parrot the views of one's constituents. They must also bring their own, more informed opinion to bare.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
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Eduardo X
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Re: Working in an art gallery for 12 years didn't make me ga

Post by Eduardo X »

noxiousdog wrote:
Dirt wrote: Then why have marriage at all if we all just reproduce without the institution of marriage?
Because we want to?
Good response. 8)
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RodeoRanch
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Post by RodeoRanch »

Fireball1244 wrote:
RodeoRanch wrote:
CSL wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:
RodeoRanch wrote:I wonder what most of the provinces will think of this.

I know the Alberta gov't will be spoiling for a fight with Ottawa over the issue.
Actually, I heard the justice minister of Alberta interviewed on CBC tonight. He basically conceded the jurisdiction issue to Ottawa and said concerned Albertans should be talking to their MPs, because any further battles on this issue will come when the federal bill is tabled.
And I for one hope the MPs make the right decision and not listen to those people.
Isn't that an MP's job, even if he/she personally disagrees with the people's position?
Nope. It is NOT the job of an elected representative to merely parrot the views of one's constituents. They must also bring their own, more informed opinion to bare.
I meant that the MP should at least listen to his constituent's views. Of course he/she must not be a parrot but don't they have a responsibility to at least listen and discuss to the people that voted them in as to why they are taking a certain position? If most of his constituents disagree with his position, then he won't get elected next time in that riding.
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Fireball
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Post by Fireball »

Well he won't get reelected if most people disagree and most people vote on that issue. Which is unlikely.

Does he have a responsibility to talk to his district and explain why he's voting the way he is? I would think so, and were I an elected rep, I would do so, especially if I was voting in a principled yet unpopular manner.

However, he has no ironclad obligation to do so. And were I a political adviser, I'd probably tell him not to make such a public splash over a principled yet unpopular vote.

And I intend to be a political consultant, not candidate, so....
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
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RodeoRanch
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Post by RodeoRanch »

Interesting stuff.

I just look at the whole marriage issue as none of my damned business. It's not going to impact me in any manner, that's for sure.

Politics is such a nasty business, eh? Makes me want to be a hermit in the mountains sometimes!
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The Mad Hatter
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Post by The Mad Hatter »

Fireball1244 wrote:Well he won't get reelected if most people disagree and most people vote on that issue. Which is unlikely.

Does he have a responsibility to talk to his district and explain why he's voting the way he is? I would think so, and were I an elected rep, I would do so, especially if I was voting in a principled yet unpopular manner.

However, he has no ironclad obligation to do so. And were I a political adviser, I'd probably tell him not to make such a public splash over a principled yet unpopular vote.

And I intend to be a political consultant, not candidate, so....
If the case in question is an Alberta MP intending to vote against same sex marriage, he's probably reflecting his constituents' wishes. All but one Alberta MP is Conservative and their party line is opposed to same sex marriage, as is a majority of voters in the province.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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Post by Kiam »

Image
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The Mad Hatter
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Post by The Mad Hatter »

The political battles on this continue here.

"Alberta Premier Ralph Klein placed his considerable political weight in opposition to same-sex marriage Friday as part of a renewed push that includes a call for a national referendum on the issue.

Mr. Klein said that most Albertans oppose gays and lesbians marrying.

“...I don't know what the percentage of the majority is, but the majority of people are opposed to same-sex marriage. And I represent the people of this province,” he said.

He told a Calgary television station that while his province doesn't have a lot of legal options, it still has political avenues, including urging people to write to their federal politicians.

“Also, there is the alternative to have a national referendum on this,” he said. A clutch of federal Conservative Party MPs also called for such a vote, sources told The Globe and Mail.

However, Mr. Klein said his party won't adopt a formal strategy until he consults with his caucus as early as next Wednesday.

“I'm thoroughly disappointed,” Mr. Klein said of the Supreme Court decision on Thursday that allows Ottawa to go ahead with legislation to allow same-sex marriage. “There is very little legally we can do about it, but there is a lot politically.”

Mr. Klein's remarks could prove to be another headache for Conservative Leader Stephen Harper, who is facing division within his caucus on the matter. During the recent election campaign, Mr. Klein's musings about radically altering the Alberta medicare system became a political problem for Mr. Harper, leaving his Conservative Party trying to fend off Liberal accusations that it would privatize health care.

Sources said the issue of a national referendum on same-sex marriage was raised in the party's weekly caucus meeting on Wednesday, when members met to discuss how the Conservatives should react to the top court's decision.

Although Mr. Harper — and, sources say, a majority of the caucus — is discouraging the idea of a referendum, the mere fact the discussion took place demonstrates the internal difficulties Mr. Harper is facing.

A source told The Globe and Mail that the caucus is discussing such matters as: “If the bill fails, what's our position? Is it protection of religious freedom or is it something more dramatic, like proposing a referendum or a constitutional amendment? It's still [a live issue].”

Sources said individuals who support the referendum idea include Saskatchewan's David Anderson and Maurice Vellacott, and British Columbia's Russ Hiebert. None of the three could be reached for comment Friday.

One source said that Mr. Harper told caucus members he would prefer to limit the party's position to supporting the right of churches to refuse to marry gay couples if it violates their religious principles. The source said Mr. Harper is “lukewarm” to the idea of a referendum.

“Stephen would definitely favour the first, but there is definitely support in the caucus for the second.”

Mr. Harper is also reluctant to invoke the Constitution's notwithstanding clause to get around lower court decisions that have allowed for gay marriage in several provinces.

“Politically, we are aware of the sensitivities of using that,” the source said.

At most, a handful of Tories plan to vote for the legislation that the Liberals intend to introduce in the new year. They include MPs James Moore, Bev Oda and Belinda Stronach.

Ms. Stronach said Friday that the party has not yet reached a consensus on what position it will take after the vote.

However, she welcomed the right to a free vote in the House.

“Each individual has the right to decide what they want to do, based on their values, based on the views of their constituents,” she said. “As to what happens in the aftermath, we haven't arrived on a consensus on the various scenarios that could arise.”

But the Conservatives were not alone in experiencing internal division.

Several Liberals have also said they will break with the majority of their party on the bill.

MP John McKay, who is against gay marriage, said the issue has become divisive, with opponents being made to feel like bigots.

However, Mr. McKay said he would not call for use of the notwithstanding clause to retain the traditional definition of marriage. “I just find that that's a crude instrument. I can't bring myself to doing that.”

Some legal experts say, however, that the only way to go back to the old law would be to invoke the clause.

In Alberta, meanwhile, a group of gays and lesbians began a legal challenge against the province's Marriage Act.

The province maintains that while it can't use the Constitution's notwithstanding clause to get around a federal same-sex marriage law, its own law remains on the books.

“The essence of the challenge is going to be discrimination based on sexual orientation,” said Murray Billet of the group Canadians for Equal Marriage in Edmonton.

Edmonton lawyer Julie Lloyd said it is too early to say when the challenge will be filed.

There is a slim chance the province may change its position next week after the Alberta Tories meet to discuss how the government will respond to the issue, she said.

“I would be happy to hear from the government of Alberta that they will start issuing [marriage] licences,” she said.

“The information is to the contrary, so it would appear that we don't have any choice but to bring a challenge to the law.”
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RodeoRanch
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Post by RodeoRanch »

King Ralphie is on the loose! I doubt he actually cares but it does score him major poltical kudos here in Alberta.
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Spock's Brain
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Post by Spock's Brain »

Maybe Alberta can apply for US statehood? Thev've got plenty of oil, so they'd be quite a catch, right? :)
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RodeoRanch
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Post by RodeoRanch »

More likely America would have to apply to become Albertan. :wink:
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Post by CSL »

Fireball1244 wrote:
RodeoRanch wrote:
CSL wrote:
The Mad Hatter wrote:
RodeoRanch wrote:I wonder what most of the provinces will think of this.

I know the Alberta gov't will be spoiling for a fight with Ottawa over the issue.
Actually, I heard the justice minister of Alberta interviewed on CBC tonight. He basically conceded the jurisdiction issue to Ottawa and said concerned Albertans should be talking to their MPs, because any further battles on this issue will come when the federal bill is tabled.
And I for one hope the MPs make the right decision and not listen to those people.
Isn't that an MP's job, even if he/she personally disagrees with the people's position?
Nope. It is NOT the job of an elected representative to merely parrot the views of one's constituents. They must also bring their own, more informed opinion to bare.
I feel its the MPs job not to bring their more "informed opinions" to bear as often times they aren't that informed, hell a lot are guided by religious principles. What they need to do is put religion aside and vote based on the decision that will grant equal rights to all parties erispective of sexual preferance. IMHO MPs on the fence should swallow their religious views on this issue and vote for equal rights.
AttAdude
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Post by AttAdude »

once again, canada shows the world why they are better than us at least where tolerance is concerned lol.
AttAdude
When confronted with offensive TV, the fundamental differences between the Conservative and liberal factions becomes blatantly obvious. Conservatives will piss and moan, then file a complaint with the FCC in an attempt to make sure the offending show is never seen by anyone. Liberals... well we just change the damn channel.
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