Is God a mutation?

[Tareeq]

Or more specifically, is our capacity for religious and spiritual belief a product of genetics?

That's what Dean Hamer, the man who announced the discovery of the "gay gene," tells us.l

What he found was that the brain chemicals associated with anxiety and other emotions, including joy and sadness, appeared to be in play in the deep meditative states of Zen practitioners and the prayerful repose of Roman Catholic nuns — not to mention the mystical trances brought on by users of peyote and other mind-altering drugs.

At least one gene, which goes by the name VMAT2, controls the flow to the brain of chemicals that play a key role in emotions and consciousness. This is the "God gene" of the book's title, and Hamer acknowledges that it's a misnomer. There probably are dozens or hundreds more genes, yet to be identified, involved in the universal propensity for transcendence, he said.

Furthermore, the scientific linkage of a gene with chemicals that affect happiness or sadness does not answer the question "Is there a God?" but rather "Why do we believe in God?"

"Our genes can predispose us to believe. But they don't tell us what to believe in," said Hamer, whose current research involves HIV/AIDS.

Critics in the scientific community argue that Hamer's conclusions are simplistic and speculative, relying too much on anecdotal evidence and too little on testing of the VMAT2 gene to determine other possible connections to behavior. They also wonder whether his findings can be replicated, a necessity in scientific research.

"The field of behavioral genetics is littered with failed links between particular genes and personality traits," said Carl Zimmer, a science author who reviewed the book in last month's Scientific American.

Hamer administered a quiz to a relatively large sample of people (2000 approx.). Those who scored higher for spiritual values "tended" to have the VMAT2 gene. Whatever "tended" means.

Hamer's research fails to explain the rise and fall of religious enthusiasm over the centuries. Did all of the VMAT2 gene bearers in Europe, which is increasingly secular, emigrate to America beginning in the 1950s? For that matter, are they dying off, albeit at a slower rate, in America which is itself becoming more secular?

Then there's this:

Also left hanging is why women score much higher than men on transcendence tests.

"I'm not completely sure about that," Hamer said. "I just know that it's true. Women are more attuned to their emotional connections, and that's at the heart of spirituality."

If Hamer's right, perhaps spiritual belief is an evolutionary disadvantage in technologically advanced societies. But only for men.

Or perhaps Hamer's just wrong.

[Poleaxe]

Chicken and egg.

Does spirituality spring from a combination of chemicals, or does a lifetime of contemplation produce a preponderance of certain chemicals?

[The Emperor]

I wonder if there's an insomnia gene.

[Kraken]

Belief in the supernatural has been pretty consistent since prehistory. It is likely that people are programmed to believe in a spirit realm. Although I'm too lazy to google it right now, I'm quite sure I've seen before the hypothesis that our brains are wired for mysticism. Secular types see proof that God is a figment of our imaginations; religious types see proof that God designed the circuitry. Poleaxe is right -- it still doesn't tell us whether man created God or vice versa.

[Captain Caveman]

Poleaxe is right -- it still doesn't tell us whether man created God or vice versa.

As Lawbeefaroni has informed me, this is all answered in Asimov's The Last Question.

[Dirt]

It's a mutation of our fear of death.

[RunningMn9]

Belief in the supernatural has been pretty consistent since prehistory. It is likely that people are programmed to believe in a spirit realm. Although I'm too lazy to google it right now, I'm quite sure I've seen before the hypothesis that our brains are wired for mysticism. Secular types see proof that God is a figment of our imaginations; religious types see proof that God designed the circuitry. Poleaxe is right -- it still doesn't tell us whether man created God or vice versa.

There are a few authors that have discussed this. The one that I link most frequently (although he doesn't deal specifically with the genes, but more with evolutionary theory) is Pascal Boyer. He wrote a book called "Religion Explained", and while it doesn't quite explain religion, this is the topic of the book.

You can get a watered down version of the argument in a paper called Functional Origins of Religious Concepts: Ontological and Strategic Selection in Evolved Minds

There is another guy named Matthew Alper who wrote a book called "The 'God' Part of the Brain". While he doesn't present a scientific case for such a claim as discussed above, he does have some ideas on how to test for it.

But as I recall, he is looking for the location of the spiritual part of our brain, and not the genetic portion of our brain.

[Poleaxe]

Poleaxe is right -- it still doesn't tell us whether man created God or vice versa.

As Lawbeefaroni has informed me, this is all answered in Asimov's The Last Question.

Awesome story.

[Two Sheds]

Poleaxe is right -- it still doesn't tell us whether man created God or vice versa.

As Lawbeefaroni has informed me, this is all answered in Asimov's The Last Question.

Awesome story.

Yeah, I always liked that one too.

[GargoyleBoy]

Hamer administered a quiz to a relatively large sample of people (2000 approx.). Those who scored higher for spiritual values "tended" to have the VMAT2 gene. Whatever "tended" means.

It means it's a correlational study. IF he can then prove that the VMAT2 gene causes belief, then he's on to something. As it stands, it's pretty meaningless. He doesn't, for example, mention the presence/absence of the gene in unbelievers.

For example, I examined 2000 days over previous years. I found that days on which my elbow hurt tended to be sunnier.

*shrug*

Correlation /= causation.

I'd say that his critics are right. At least for now. These findings are interesting, but ultimately meaningless.

[Two Sheds]

His elbow commands the sun! Bow before him!

[GargoyleBoy]

His elbow commands the sun! Bow before him!

That's going in my sig! Thanks!

[The Emperor]

As Lawbeefaroni has informed me, this is all answered in Asimov's The Last Question.

"let there be light."

[AttAdude]

I dont think its too hard to belive that at some point in our past our brain evolved to deal with the normal insecurities of humanity and our fear of the unknown.

[Padre]

Chicken and egg.

Does spirituality spring from a combination of chemicals, or does a lifetime of contemplation produce a preponderance of certain chemicals?

Erm, no amount of quiet contemplation is gonna alter your actual genetic code.

That said, I'm incredibly sceptical of all attempts to pin human behaviour on any one gene in particular. The situation is far too complicated to merit such simple analysis.

[RunningMn9]

That said, I'm incredibly sceptical of all attempts to pin human behaviour on any one gene in particular. The situation is far too complicated to merit such simple analysis.

Haven't they narrowed the ability to use language down to one gene in humans? Or at least one gene in humans that isn't in apes.

It's in Gebeker's evolution posts somewhere.

I'm not enough of a geneticist to know whether or not big things come in single gene packages.

[Poleaxe]

Chicken and egg.

Does spirituality spring from a combination of chemicals, or does a lifetime of contemplation produce a preponderance of certain chemicals?

Erm, no amount of quiet contemplation is gonna alter your actual genetic code.

But will it affect which genes are dominant? Will a lifetime of quiet contemplation stimulate vmat2 to allow more or less of the chemicals it is responsible for to reach the brain?

[Tareeq]

Chicken and egg.

Does spirituality spring from a combination of chemicals, or does a lifetime of contemplation produce a preponderance of certain chemicals?

Erm, no amount of quiet contemplation is gonna alter your actual genetic code.

As Poleaxe points out it can affect your neurochemistry. At least that's what a lot of neurologists and anesthesiologists who recommend biofeedback for their patients believe.

[Mr. Sparkle]

But as Ironrod effectively pointed out, it doesn't matter in regards to the Big question.

Whether there is a material explanation to Religion proves nothing about God. It can either give you comfort in knowing that God was smart enough to create a material world that allowed for us to evolve and appreciate Him... or give you ammo to assail the concept that existence has any meaning; showing that the entirety of our high minded concepts are mere illusions.

Whatever floats your boat, really.

[RunningMn9]

But will it affect which genes are dominant? Will a lifetime of quiet contemplation stimulate vmat2 to allow more or less of the chemicals it is responsible for to reach the brain?

No and no.

IF spirituality was present in humans because of the VMAT2 gene, a lifetime of quiet contemplation would have no effect the allowing of more or less chemicals responsible for spirituality.

You can't change gene dominance on the fly.

[Poleaxe]

But will it affect which genes are dominant? Will a lifetime of quiet contemplation stimulate vmat2 to allow more or less of the chemicals it is responsible for to reach the brain?

No and no.

IF spirituality was present in humans because of the VMAT2 gene, a lifetime of quiet contemplation would have no effect the allowing of more or less chemicals responsible for spirituality.

Isn't a definitive statement rather foolhardy?

You can't change gene dominance on the fly.

Say my genes predispose me to produce a certain combination of chemicals in the presense of danger. This combination of chemicals produce an extreme fear response.

I am drafted into the military in war time. In my first battle, I freeze like a statue and piss myself. I survive, and after, I feel intensely embarrassed and ashamed. In the next battle, I piss myself again but manage to fire a couple shots at nothing in particular. This continues for several months until the outside observer would see no differenc between myself and the other scared ass soldiers.

What changed?

[RunningMn9]

What changed?

Not the dominance of genes in your DNA.

What I'm saying is that IF spirituality is a function of DNA, which ultimately controls the flow of particular chemicals in your brain - short of injecting those chemicals into your skull, you aren't going to get them, quiet contemplation or not.

You can quietly contemplate, but the contemplations would not be of the same spiritual kind that were the result of the VMAT2 gene - IF that gene really did control spirituality.

IMHO, the VMAT2 gene is not solely responsible for the presence of spirituality in the human brain.

[LordMortis]

I am just glad I am missin the gene for growing a plastic fork out of my forehead.

Don't single genes often do big, big things I could see the capacity for spirituality being controlled by a gene pretty easily. And to think RM9 may very well be soulless and really is a just a sack of autonomic sociopathic chemicals becuause he is mutant and will never know the joys of really being human. Poor, poor PinochioM9.

[Two Sheds]

I am just glad I am missin the gene for growing a plastic fork out of my forehead.

You should be. It's itchy as all hell.

[Poleaxe]

What changed?

Not the dominance of genes in your DNA.

What I'm saying is that IF spirituality is a function of DNA, which ultimately controls the flow of particular chemicals in your brain - short of injecting those chemicals into your skull, you aren't going to get them, quiet contemplation or not.

You can quietly contemplate, but the contemplations would not be of the same spiritual kind that were the result of the VMAT2 gene - IF that gene really did control spirituality.

IMHO, the VMAT2 gene is not solely responsible for the presence of spirituality in the human brain.

But if a person has a fear such as agoraphobia wouldn't this be a chemical process of the brain controled by genes? Now psychaitrists are able to help people get past agoraphobia frequently. Wouldn't no longer feeling that fear, or simply being able to control it, be a change in the chemical make up of the brain?

If a psychaitrist can help someone to make these changes, why couldn't the same be achieved by self-contemplation for prolonged periods?

Your belief in the power of genes, or combinations of genes, to be absolutely predictive of behavior seems too rigid. An examination of the natural world indicates that humans overcome predispositions with great frequency. At the very least, if genes are predictive with respect to thought processes, they are only so within a broad range.

Appologies in advance as I may not see your reply until this evening.

[LordMortis]

Your belief in the power of genes,

I love those commercials. They are my favoite since. "That's great, but who are the chefs" commercial.

That whole running into windows like birds in the winter or moths to the flame and then "behold, the power of genes." kill me.

[RunningMn9]

But if a person has a fear such as agoraphobia wouldn't this be a chemical process of the brain controled by genes?

I don't believe that agoraphobia is a genetic disorder. If it was, it wouldn't be curable or treatable through therapy - at least not to the degree that you are altering the dominance of particular genes.

Wouldn't no longer feeling that fear, or simply being able to control it, be a change in the chemical make up of the brain?

Yes, but that's not what you were talking about. You were talking about genes and dominance. Not how brain chemistry is affected by environment.

Your belief in the power of genes, or combinations of genes, to be absolutely predictive of behavior seems too rigid.

I don't have any belief in the power of genes as absolute predictive of behavior. I said IF the presence or effect of a particular chemical in the brain, than environmental factors aren't going to be a substitute for that gene. If you lack the gene for spirituality, you aren't going to be a spiritual person. Regardless of personal tragedies.

[Discalced]

Does VMAT explain this too?

[Spock's Brain]

Does VMAT explain this too?

Considering how Jesus was probably pinned up by his wrists and ankles, it's amazing how many of these "stigmata" appear to affect the palms of the hands and the soles of the feet.

[Discalced]

Does VMAT explain this too?

Considering how Jesus was probably pinned up by his wrists and ankles, it's amazing how many of these "stigmata" appear to affect the hands and feet.

I think so too.

[flycatcher]

What changed?

Not the dominance of genes in your DNA.

What I'm saying is that IF spirituality is a function of DNA, which ultimately controls the flow of particular chemicals in your brain - short of injecting those chemicals into your skull, you aren't going to get them, quiet contemplation or not.

You can quietly contemplate, but the contemplations would not be of the same spiritual kind that were the result of the VMAT2 gene - IF that gene really did control spirituality.

IMHO, the VMAT2 gene is not solely responsible for the presence of spirituality in the human brain.

But if a person has a fear such as agoraphobia wouldn't this be a chemical process of the brain controled by genes? Now psychaitrists are able to help people get past agoraphobia frequently. Wouldn't no longer feeling that fear, or simply being able to control it, be a change in the chemical make up of the brain?

If a psychaitrist can help someone to make these changes, why couldn't the same be achieved by self-contemplation for prolonged periods?

Your belief in the power of genes, or combinations of genes, to be absolutely predictive of behavior seems too rigid. An examination of the natural world indicates that humans overcome predispositions with great frequency. At the very least, if genes are predictive with respect to thought processes, they are only so within a broad range.

Appologies in advance as I may not see your reply until this evening.

Well, i'm a fruitfly geneticist, yes some genes can do large things. Like if a fly is missing the gene Tinman, then a heart or the fly equivalent won't develop. Behavior appears to be much more complicated, than simple genetics. For phobias its more how you percieve fear or what you percieve as fear that causes the flight or fight response or anxiety, which is why behavoral therapy can fix social disorders like that, you don't change anything genetically, it all remains the same, you just alter how you percieve things.

[Poleaxe]

For phobias its more how you percieve fear or what you percieve as fear that causes the flight or fight response or anxiety, which is why behavoral therapy can fix social disorders like that, you don't change anything genetically, it all remains the same, you just alter how you percieve things.

But then wouldn't those perceptions in reality be chemical reactions which are controled by genes?

[Poleaxe]

If you lack the gene for spirituality, you aren't going to be a spiritual person. Regardless of personal tragedies.

But think about what you are saying. Is gene dominance regional? Does vmat2 play a greater part in the make up of someone from the bible belt than someone from SoCal?

A much more logicl hypothesis from my pov would be that exercising the spiritual "muscle" promotes the production of chemicals that indicate spirituality.

[Tareeq]

A much more logicl hypothesis from my pov would be that exercising the spiritual "muscle" promotes the production of chemicals that indicate spirituality.

Lamarckian! Lysenkoist! Heretic!

Burn him!

[flycatcher]

For phobias its more how you percieve fear or what you percieve as fear that causes the flight or fight response or anxiety, which is why behavoral therapy can fix social disorders like that, you don't change anything genetically, it all remains the same, you just alter how you percieve things.

But then wouldn't those perceptions in reality be chemical reactions which are controled by genes?

Lets say that someone fears snakes, everytime they see a snake they have a panic attack, which is a massive rush of adrenaline due to the flight or fight response. It turns out that that they fear snakes because they were bitten by a rattlesnake in the woods 2 years ago. Before they were bitten they never feared snakes. Whats changed? Now when that person sees a snake they subconsciously think fear, which elicts the flight or fight response. Its not because there is a gene or genes that make them perceive snakes as being fearfull. So yes genes utlimately make the components necessary for those chemical rxns to occur like fear, but its usually some behavioral trigger that sets them off, not the genes being turned on in the case of a phobia.

[flycatcher]

Fruit Flies by the way have this same God gene! What the guy is trying to say is that he believes that there is a polymorphism(different forms) of this gene and one of these polymorphisms may allow for a feeling of greater spirtuality by transpoting more dopamine. Is this single dopamine transporter responsible for people believing in God, not likely.

[Poleaxe]

Lets say that someone fears snakes, everytime they see a snake they have a panic attack, which is a massive rush of adrenaline due to the flight or fight response. It turns out that that they fear snakes because they were bitten by a rattlesnake in the woods 2 years ago. Before they were bitten they never feared snakes. Whats changed? Now when that person sees a snake they subconsciously think fear, which elicts the flight or fight response. Its not because there is a gene or genes that make them perceive snakes as being fearfull. So yes genes utlimately make the components necessary for those chemical rxns to occur like fear, but its usually some behavioral trigger that sets them off, not the genes being turned on in the case of a phobia.

Ahha!

Doesn't that then support my contention? If the genes controling an adrenaline rush act diferently post snake bite, couldn't a less dramatic event such as prolonged self-contemplation also affect gene behavior?

[Poleaxe]

Lamarckian! Lysenkoist! Heretic!

Burn him!

Five words prompting two google searches. Either you are a master, or I drank too much in college.

[flycatcher]

Lets say that someone fears snakes, everytime they see a snake they have a panic attack, which is a massive rush of adrenaline due to the flight or fight response. It turns out that that they fear snakes because they were bitten by a rattlesnake in the woods 2 years ago. Before they were bitten they never feared snakes. Whats changed? Now when that person sees a snake they subconsciously think fear, which elicts the flight or fight response. Its not because there is a gene or genes that make them perceive snakes as being fearfull. So yes genes utlimately make the components necessary for those chemical rxns to occur like fear, but its usually some behavioral trigger that sets them off, not the genes being turned on in the case of a phobia.

Ahha!

Doesn't that then support my contention? If the genes controling an adrenaline rush act diferently post snake bite, couldn't a less dramatic event such as prolonged self-contemplation also affect gene behavior?

No, the genes are acting the same they're still producing the same neurotransmitters, What your changing is the release of the neurotransmitters which are being stored in vesicles.

[Poleaxe]

No, the genes are acting the same they're still producing the same neurotransmitters, What your changing is the release of the neurotransmitters which are being stored in vesicles.

Hmmm, doesn't this suggest interesting implications for both the "gay gene" and the "god gene?"

EDIT: Even if I was expressing it wrong, it still indicates that spiritual contemplation has as much to do with spirituality as vmat2.