The In Praise Of Buffy Thread.

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:33 pm

/shrug. Whedon is a badass.
Story setups. Scene breakdowns. random banter.

Spoiler:

anyways, yeah the turns that plotlines take and the cohesion of the large arcs make the story enjoyable for me.

Hamlet3145 · Post by **Hamlet3145** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:40 pm

Triggy, I think it would be fun if you posted impressions as you encounter various iconic episodes. It would kind of let us Buffy old-timers relive them a bit. They should be quite obvious, but the big three that come to mind are, "Hush," "The Body," and "Once More With Feeling."

I think you've already gotten me to start re-watching from season 2 again. lol

Meghan · Post by **Meghan** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:29 am

I haven't read any of the follow up posts here because I'm trying to avoid spoilers. I just started watching the series too, trigger, and I was completely rocked by season 2. I'd always heard it was good. I expected it would be enjoyable - I wasn't expecting to be honestly impressed.

And of course, soft-spoken librarians are the epitome of hottiness so they have that going for them too.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:25 am

Hamlet3145 wrote:Triggy, I think it would be fun if you posted impressions as you encounter various iconic episodes. It would kind of let us Buffy old-timers relive them a bit. They should be quite obvious, but the big three that come to mind are, "Hush," "The Body," and "Once More With Feeling."

I think you've already gotten me to start re-watching from season 2 again. lol

Sure. I just started season 3, so bear with me a bit. I'll prolly go back and talk about amazing season 2 as well.

Spoilers ahead!

A quick one, before bed. I think it's the third episode of season 3, "Faith, Hope, & Trick", where Buffy finally tells the gang about what *really* happened with Angel at the end of Season 2. Now...maybe I missed it, or maybe Whedon was deliberately sketchy on it...but I figured they *knew* what she'd put herself through, and obviously, none of the gang was aware.

I thought SMG played that scene incredibly well. I've never thought of her as an actress much, so the emotion (she doesn't cry, even) that she conveys (and the way she's obviously biting it all back) is brilliantly realized. This'll sound like sacrilege, but I kind of think ol' Joss blew that scene, too. It has a nice cathartic emotional payoff...but it should've been more. I mean, when she did what she did to Angel, my first thought was "she did that for Giles after what happened with Jenny." If you're Giles, that thought HAS to occur to you as well, and when she says "here's the sacrifice I made for you" in so many words...how does he not just totally break down?

Anyway, loved that episode. Also loved Cordelia standing down the cowboy vampire. "She's just the runner-up. I'm the QUEEN. Whaddya think *I'm* gonna do to you?!?!" Woot, Cordy!

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:30 am

You'll come to learn that Buffy does what she does because it's the right thing for the Slayer to do, not really because of personal feelings. At the end of Season 2, she did what she did because it had to be done. Simple as that. It's a constant theme of the show - she wishes to have a normal life and not be the Slayer, but in the end, she knows what her responsibilites are and does them without fail. You'll see that more.

BTW - I've been watching the seasons again with the commentry on and you'll see that a lot of the stuff was made up on the fly, done because they knew there was an Angel spinoff and because they had no budget, so it's impressive that Joss did as well as he did. Joss acknowledges that it wasn't until he was into Season 2 that he had confidence in his actors to do some of the deeper, more emotional scenes. Also, I find season 1 of most shows tend to be weaker as it takes time for the chemistry to form and the show to hit it's stride. It's also interesting to hear some of the other writers talk about Joss - even when he didn't write an episode most of the best scenes and jokes where injected by Joss.

The show would have been better if they ended it in Season 5 as I found the last two seasons too depressing in general, though there were some good episodes still. Also, if you're watching Buffy and Angel you'll know when Firefly was cancelled when you start seeing some familiar faces

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:54 am

I have to agree with Ice Bear. As you watch the series you will see Buffy just accepting her destiny.

Awesome show. Think I will run a marathon weekend for season 2-3

zinckiwi · Post by **zinckiwi** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:59 am

For a while I've wanted to take a week off and watch the entirety of Buffy in a single week. One season per day, with an easy first day since it was only a half season. Or you could not stick directly to season=day and have some more leeway built into the schedule.

Twenty-two (?) episodes each season, 44 mins per ep means you can easily watch a whole season and get 6-7 hours of sleep per day.

Would have to set up a standing order with the local pizza place.

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:21 pm

IceBear wrote:BTW - I've been watching the seasons again with the commentry on and you'll see that a lot of the stuff was made up on the fly, done because they knew there was an Angel spinoff and because they had no budget, so it's impressive that Joss did as well as he did. Joss acknowledges that it wasn't until he was into Season 2 that he had confidence in his actors to do some of the deeper, more emotional scenes. Also, I find season 1 of most shows tend to be weaker as it takes time for the chemistry to form and the show to hit it's stride. It's also interesting to hear some of the other writers talk about Joss - even when he didn't write an episode most of the best scenes and jokes where injected by Joss.

I definitely recommend (at the least) listening to all of the episode commentaries that are done by Joss Whedon. IMHO his commentaries are an excellent mix of insight, background, and humor. Really good stuff.

Asharak · Post by **Asharak** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:23 pm

IceBear wrote:The show would have been better if they ended it in Season 5 as I found the last two seasons too depressing in general, though there were some good episodes still.

I wasn't a huge fan of Season 7, but I thought Season 6 was one of the best seasons the show ever had. It was different, certainly, than the seasons before it because it completed the transition of Buffy to an adult instead of a child/teenager, and it dealt with a lot more serious subject matter in the process, so I see why people find it unfamiliar and therefore less appealing. But to me that growth was a natural and inevitable part of the show, and some of the darker themes (Willow, especially) were good TV.

And, of course, Once More With Feeling just knocks the socks off every other episode in the entire series.

- Ash

Ranulf · Post by **Ranulf** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:37 pm

I started watching buffy around season 4 after seeing the repeats on FX or TNT or whatever as well. Seasons 1-3 are good, season 4 on till the end sans a few shows here n there was crap. At least in hindsight I think it was crap. By season 7 I was just watching to see it finally die (preferably along with buffy getting chucked into the hellmouth). Then of course Angel got cancelled soon after.

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:42 pm

Asharak wrote:And, of course, Once More With Feeling just knocks the socks off every other episode in the entire series.

- Ash

Joss's commentary during the last verse of Tara's song "Under Your Spell":

"This, of course, is porn...."

Asharak · Post by **Asharak** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:07 pm

Freezer-TPF- wrote:Joss's commentary during the last verse of Tara's song "Under Your Spell":

"This, of course, is porn...."

Well, yes, that part was particularily good.

- Ash

sgoldj · Post by **sgoldj** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:11 pm

CeeKay wrote:I hear Joss Whedon is doing a 'season 8' in comic book format.....

That was confirmed by Nicholas Branden at the Dragon*Con during a panel.

Best line the both series (I won't print it here) IMHO was by Cordelia in the 1st episode of Angel.

If you haven't yet, try "Frey" by Weadon. About a slayer a couple of hundred years from now.

Asharak · Post by **Asharak** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:29 pm

sgoldj wrote:Best line the both series (I won't print it here) IMHO was by Cordelia in the 1st episode of Angel.

The only Cordy line I remember from that episode is from the climax of the episode:

Spoiler:

Is that the one you're thinking of? Or did she say something else good that I've forgotten?

- Ash

GuidoTKP · Post by **GuidoTKP** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:35 pm

Once more with feeling was one of the first episodes of Buffy that I watched before I got serious about it (i.e., sitting down with a friend who is a Buffy fanatic and started to work our way through the DVDs over the course of a year). I thought it was pretty awesome at the time just as musical theatre. When I rewatched it in context, I was floored by how much Joss advanced the plot in that episode. That was no one-off episode. It raises major issues and the reveal at the end of the episode is just off the charts in terms of its significance. Coupled with the fact that Joss wrote the lyrics and music for the episode, I consider this episode one of the top-10 achievements in television history. That episode was proof that all Emmy voters need to be killed so that we can start over ....

GuidoTKP · Post by **GuidoTKP** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:41 pm

Asharak wrote:
sgoldj wrote:Best line the both series (I won't print it here) IMHO was by Cordelia in the 1st episode of Angel.
The only Cordy line I remember from that episode is from the climax of the episode:

Spoiler:
You don't know who he is, do you? You are SO gonna get your ass kicked.
Is that the one you're thinking of? Or did she say something else good that I've forgotten?

- Ash

There are a couple of other options:

Spoiler:

sgoldj · Post by **sgoldj** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:41 pm

Asharak wrote:
sgoldj wrote:Best line the both series (I won't print it here) IMHO was by Cordelia in the 1st episode of Angel.
The only Cordy line I remember from that episode is from the climax of the episode:

Spoiler:
You don't know who he is, do you? You are SO gonna get your ass kicked.
Is that the one you're thinking of? Or did she say something else good that I've forgotten?

- Ash

The Badly paraphrased spoiler below. About 5 lines before that:

Spoiler:

I thought Charisma Capenter's delivery was great

Beaten to it by GuidoTKP.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:00 pm

GuidoTKP wrote:Once more with feeling was one of the first episodes of Buffy that I watched before I got serious about it (i.e., sitting down with a friend who is a Buffy fanatic and started to work our way through the DVDs over the course of a year). I thought it was pretty awesome at the time just as musical theatre. When I rewatched it in context, I was floored by how much Joss advanced the plot in that episode. That was no one-off episode. It raises major issues and the reveal at the end of the episode is just off the charts in terms of its significance. Coupled with the fact that Joss wrote the lyrics and music for the episode, I consider this episode one of the top-10 achievements in television history. That episode was proof that all Emmy voters need to be killed so that we can start over ....

Oh my, yes. The storyline implications of that episode were absolutely stunning. The first time I saw it was really a 'Oh shit!' experience.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:03 am

Ok.

I thought Spike was teh awesomest during season 2.

Then came his opening scene in season 3, in the "Lovers Walk" episode (could that have been any more of a downer ending?): he drives over a sign, crashes to a halt, falls out of his car along with a 40-ouncer. At this point, Spike is epic.

And then the final scene of the episode: our boy streaking down the highway in his car, singing along at the top of his lungs to Sid Vicious' version of "My Way". I no longer think Spike is cool; I think Spike is All. I want to fucking be Spike.

Also overheard as the opening music bed for episode 3 of season 3: The Brian Jonestown Massacre's "Going To Hell", which is one of my favoritest songs ever. Woot!

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:08 am

I think I failed to ever watch an episode where Marsters didn't steal the show.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:48 pm

The awesome thing about Spike and Drusilla is that they were never intended to be lasting characters. They were introduced to be the main villians for season 2 and they never expected them to make such an impact that they had to keep them around

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:45 am

Ok, who didn't well up a little when the snow started coming down in the Christmas episode? Come on....you know your eyes got a little itchy there....

Favorite episode of Season 3 so far? "The Zeppo". I think poor Xander is a horribly under-utilized character at this point in the Buffy ouevre. It was great to see a Xander episode, and especially one that had him basically playing Griffin Dunne's character in a wonderful homage to "After Hours". There was some great madcap comedy in an episode supposedly about (yet another) apocalypse.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:52 am

Done with season 3, and starting season 4 (along with Angel season 1).

I thought the 2 part finale of season 3 was actually a little anti-climactic, actually, but I really, really enjoyed the Prom ep. I mean, the umbrella the class gave to Buffy was a nice, nice touch....

...but then they got me and got me good.

See, I think everyone has a certain song that no matter when they hear it or in what context, rational thought departs and weepy-eyed goofy-ass endorphins play your central nervous system like a cheap piano.

For me, that song is "Wild Horses", and while I prefer the Gram Parsons original, The Sundays' version of it is right up there. When that song started playing in the Prom episode, I was just a pile of over-sensitive goo.

Anyway, season 4 is a hoot so far (the episode where Spike and Buffy get engaged had me laughing my ass off) and Angel is surprisingly funny too. I really didn't care much for David Boreanaz character in the first 3 seasons of Buffy, so the endless jokes in Angel about his broody-ness are a hoot. The only thing that sucks about Angel The Show so far is seeing Glenn Quinn; he plays such a wonderful comic foil for the series with such a nifty, light comic touch, that knowing how he passed on kind of gives it an unintended gravitas.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:08 am

triggercut wrote:
I thought the 2 part finale of season 3 was actually a little anti-climactic, actually, but I really, really enjoyed the Prom ep. I mean, the umbrella the class gave to Buffy was a nice, nice touch....

Spoiler (for anyone who hasn't seen Buffy through season 3; i.e. Megan. Well, it's not a spoiler per se, but I'm putting it in spoiler tags anyway.)

Spoiler:

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:43 pm

triggercut wrote:Anyway, season 4 is a hoot so far (the episode where Spike and Buffy get engaged had me laughing my ass off) and Angel is surprisingly funny too. I really didn't care much for David Boreanaz character in the first 3 seasons of Buffy, so the endless jokes in Angel about his broody-ness are a hoot.

S4 does have some great comedy. I love the ending of the Halloween episode. Let us know what you think of the next (?) episode after the Buffy/Spike engagement one...

In Angel S1E3 (In the Dark), I love Spike's opening monologue as he looks down at Angel from the rooftop. Just hilarious.

I didn't care that much for the Angel character until I started watching Angel, either.

Asharak · Post by **Asharak** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:14 pm

Freezer-TPF- wrote:In Angel S1E3 (In the Dark), I love Spike's opening monologue as he looks down at Angel from the rooftop. Just hilarious.

Possibly the best spoken lines of dialogue in the entire Buffyverse, right there.

I need to put in the DVD of that episode just for that scene...

- Ash

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:19 pm

"Quick! To the Angelmobile!"

Asharak · Post by **Asharak** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:20 pm

Nah, the best line in the monologue:

Spoiler:

EDIT> Nice find with the link you edited in, BH. I had forgotten the fluffy puppy line.

- Ash

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:29 pm

Once More With Feeling is absolutely genius. Probably my favorite television episode from anything not on HBO. And maybe on HBO, too.

Spoiler:

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:39 pm

Spoiler:

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:41 pm

Catching up...

The factoid in Freezer's post helps explain the ending of season 3. Looking back on it, it definitely has a feel of a time-pressured rewrite to it.

The two holiday episodes I've seen so far in season four were as funny as anything I've seen on TV in a while. The Halloween episode was hilarious! I totally, totally bought into it, and the punchline/reveal at the end was GREAT. It was like one of those silly campfire ghost stories that ends up having a punchline...only this one was funny.

The Thanksgiving episode was even better. I mean, how funny is the visual comedy of poor ol' Spike sitting there lashed to a chair with arrows sticking out of him, the whole time delivering his running sarcastic commentary? Loved it.

I've also seen "Hush"; I think I need to revisit it, because while I liked it, I'm not sure it'd even make my Buffy top 5 episodes list at this point. Maybe all the buildup and hype in the BTVS community about "Hush" had my expectation levels at a level far too high.

As for Angel, I had no idea that Doyle, um, you know...so early in the show's run. I'd been under the impression that he was a constant in the show until Glenn Quinn's death. Anyone know if he was intended to be in the show for a long run, and his lifestyle caused Whedon to write him out at an early stage?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:49 pm

I think he was there specifically to give Cordelia a function in the show - IE, to establish how his power worked, then pass it on as a hook to tie Angel and Cordelia together.

Stefan Stirzaker · Post by **Stefan Stirzaker** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:42 am

Yep we're total buffy converts here, my wife got me hooked on it, mainly through about 2-3 watchings a year (maybe more). We even bought the Once more with feeling CD

For actors they do sing pretty well.

Fire bad, tree pretty.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:01 am

triggercut wrote: Anyone know if he was intended to be in the show for a long run, and his lifestyle caused Whedon to write him out at an early stage?

"The official word from creator Joss Whedon is that Doyle's death was planned from the very beginning"

There's been plenty of speculation on his addictions and him being "fired",
but I have to go with the Commentary (btw, those are pretty fun too if you haven't listened to any of them).

Tscott · Post by **Tscott** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:33 am

Chaosraven wrote:There's been plenty of speculation on his addictions and him being "fired",
but I have to go with the Commentary (btw, those are pretty fun too if you haven't listened to any of them).

Woah. I won't do that unless you've seen most of the series. Those commentaries are filled with spoilers from future seasons and thus not recommended for newcomers to the show.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:50 am

triggercut wrote:Catching up...

The factoid in Freezer's post helps explain the ending of season 3. Looking back on it, it definitely has a feel of a time-pressured rewrite to it.

*coughs politely*

Hush - a couple of things about the episode really appealed to me:

Spoiler:

Course, it's like anything else. Different strokes, and all that.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:48 am

I recommend avoiding special features until you've finished the series. There are some huge spoilers in there. When they profile a character/actor, for instance, they profile them for the entire series regardless of which season the profile is included with. I know, for instance, that one of the most dramatic surprises in season five was thoroughly discussed in the season two or three special features.

Spoiler:

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:02 pm

triggercut wrote:The factoid in Freezer's post helps explain the ending of season 3. Looking back on it, it definitely has a feel of a time-pressured rewrite to it.

Props go to P-dog on that one.

triggercut wrote:The Thanksgiving episode was even better. I mean, how funny is the visual comedy of poor ol' Spike sitting there lashed to a chair with arrows sticking out of him, the whole time delivering his running sarcastic commentary? Loved it.

Spike: A bear! You made a bear!
Buffy: I didn't mean to!
Spike: Undo it! Undo it!

triggercut wrote:I've also seen "Hush"; I think I need to revisit it, because while I liked it, I'm not sure it'd even make my Buffy top 5 episodes list at this point. Maybe all the buildup and hype in the BTVS community about "Hush" had my expectation levels at a level far too high.

The mood/setting was great, but perhaps my favorite part of Hush was Giles's briefing using a boombox and transparencies. Anyway, Whedon certainly showed that he has skills in the unspoken dialogue department.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:16 pm

Freezer-TPF- wrote: The mood/setting was great, but perhaps my favorite part of Hush was Giles's briefing using a boombox and transparencies. Anyway, Whedon certainly showed that he has skills in the unspoken dialogue department.

That and the "misunderstanding" from a little earlier in the scene (iirc, it was Willow mis interpreting a specific guesture) were classic.

Covenant72 · Post by **Covenant72** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:23 pm

Actually, if you rewatch that scene, you will notice that she is "massaging" that thing for nearly the entire presentation.