Octopus Overlords

Ah, democracy at work. I imagine if Scotland get's independence, Northern Ireland will want the same.

R&P no?

Did he wrenched apart? While more than half want it. Not quite a wrenching is it?

I always thought "Scottish Independence" meant driving yourself to the liquor store?

I think this will be moved to R&P in short order.

And then Dirt will explode again.

pr0ner wrote:I think this will be moved to R&P in short order.

And then Dirt will explode again.

Isn't that the point?

Blackhawk wrote:

pr0ner wrote:I think this will be moved to R&P in short order.

And then Dirt will explode again.

Isn't that the point?

He begs for what he deserves.

~Neal

If I have to fight to keep Scotland part of the United Kingdom, I will.

Rule Britannia!

Yankeeman84 wrote:If I have to fight to keep Scotland part of the United Kingdom, I will.

Rule Britannia!

Yes, because we know how British you are. You and CSL, both. Terribly British.

Yankeeman84 wrote:If I have to fight to keep Scotland part of the United Kingdom, I will.

Rule Britannia!

You may take their lives, YM, but you'll never take their freedom.

El Guapo wrote:

Yankeeman84 wrote:If I have to fight to keep Scotland part of the United Kingdom, I will.

Rule Britannia!

You may take their lives, YM, but you'll never take their freedom.

Watch me motherfucker!!!!!!!!

Moving to R&P, as this one falls on the P side of things, methinks.

ImLawBoy wrote:Moving to R&P, as this one falls on the P side of things, methinks.

Yes, and Dirt knows it too.

REX BRITANNIA!

UNITY OR DEATH!

So is dirt just refusing to post threads in R&P now?

Dirt wrote:Ah, democracy at work. I imagine if Scotland get's independence, Northern Ireland will want the same.

No, Northern Ireland will never ask for this as the UK is their only protection from being swallowed up by the Irish Republic. The majority are staunch "Unionists".

Grifman wrote:

Dirt wrote:Ah, democracy at work. I imagine if Scotland get's independence, Northern Ireland will want the same.

No, Northern Ireland will never ask for this as the UK is their only protection from being swallowed up by the Irish Republic. The majority are staunch "Unionists".

I wouldn't say never. It's only something like 56/42 now and the greatest disparity is in the upper age brackets (the under 25 bracket is actually equally Protestant and Catholic). Furthermore, Catholics have higher birth rates. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, that much is true.

That said, the South has no desire to incorporate the North and its difficulties.

Almost six years on, the question will be settled in two more:

A deal setting out terms for a Scottish independence referendum has been signed by Prime Minister David Cameron and First Minister Alex Salmond.

The agreement, struck in Edinburgh, has paved the way for a vote in autumn 2014, with a single Yes/No question on Scotland leaving the UK.

It will also allow 16 and 17-year-olds to take part in the ballot.

Interesting. That article didn't really say why they wanted to leave other than for "a brighter future". That seems a bit nebulous to me.

Looks like it's a continued march toward self rule. They only got their own parliament under the Scotland Act 1998.

They've published a white paper (PDF). The upshot seems to be the age-old story. We want to rule ourselves and we're convinced that we can do it better for ourselves than you (UK) can.

I have a feeling The Proclaimers are behind this.

Can you even walk 500 miles in Scotland?

Isgrimnur wrote:Can you even walk 500 miles in Scotland?

In a straight line?

The whisky tells me it doesn't matter....

Two weeks to go:

According to ScotCen Social Research, an independent research institute in Edinburgh, the average of the most recent polls show about 42 percent voting yes to 48 percent no. Nearly 11 percent say they are undecided. A simple majority is needed for the referendum to pass.

On September 2, YouGov conducted a poll for the Sun newspaper that found the yes voters just 6 points behind the union supporters. That’s down from a 14-point split in late-August. The consensus is that the yes campaign is gaining votes, but not necessarily enough to win the election.

There's an interesting electoral dimension of this for Great Britain. Most Scots vote Labour, and pulling them out of the vote will make the surviving UK more Conservative.

I imagine this is why we don't see the Tories making more noise on this issue.

Holman wrote:There's an interesting electoral dimension of this for Great Britain. Most Scots vote Labour, and pulling them out of the vote will make the surviving UK more Conservative.

I imagine this is why we don't see the Tories making more noise on this issue.

I think there's a more practical reason you don't hear much from the Tory side -- there are no prominent Scottish Conservatives whose voices would have any influence on the vote.

Independence would be so bad for everyone involved. I really hope Scotland votes "no".

Fireball wrote:Independence would be so bad for everyone involved. I really hope Scotland votes "no".

Why do you think so? I'm hoping they vote "no" as well, mostly for sentimental reasons, but I don't have much of a handle on the practical impacts of independence for Scotland and the rest of the UK.

El Guapo wrote:

Fireball wrote:Independence would be so bad for everyone involved. I really hope Scotland votes "no".

Why do you think so? I'm hoping they vote "no" as well, mostly for sentimental reasons, but I don't have much of a handle on the practical impacts of independence for Scotland and the rest of the UK.

I never got beyond the fact that economically, an independent Scotland would collapse. I mean start with the currency. Is there any reason to go further?

El Guapo wrote:

Fireball wrote:Independence would be so bad for everyone involved. I really hope Scotland votes "no".

Why do you think so? I'm hoping they vote "no" as well, mostly for sentimental reasons, but I don't have much of a handle on the practical impacts of independence for Scotland and the rest of the UK.

The "yes" people are assuming a lot of things, many of which I think are unfounded. They're presuming they can keep the Pound Sterling as their currency. They're presuming that the jilted UK would help the new Scotland become members of the EU. They're assuming that the way-left-of-center Scottish polity would actually favor the environmentally dangerous oil extraction efforts that would be needed to truly monetize the reserves off their northern shore. All three of these things have to go favorably for a newly-independent Scotland, or it will collapse economically. I think it's unlikely that they go 3 for 3 on these.

Scotland is completely reliant upon England, economically and militarily. It has no existing infrastructure nor the tax base to take on administration of health services, pension benefits, road maintenance, and other basic national government duties. The separatists are pushing the myth that the success of the devolved Scottish Parliament proves that they are ready to cut free of the "burden" of the UK, when in fact the UK national government still does most of the heavy, expense-laden lifting in Scotland.

Right now, Scotland has the best of both worlds: most day to day policy questions have been devolved to the local Parliament, so only Scottish elected officials get to vote on those matters. But Scotland also has a major say-so in UK-level policy, particularly under Labour governments, and even gets to vote on local English laws, as England itself has no devolved Parliament.

The fact that the separatists just hand wave away major questions about currency, EU accession, foreign policy, tax burdens, the role of the Monarchy, etc, is just proof that they're selling a bill of goods. They want to pretend that Scottish independence will lead to a life just like what Scots enjoy now, just without those annoying English butting their nose into things. They're not being honest with the electorate, and don't deserve their support.

Ok, yeah, sounds like a bad idea.

My assumption was that if Scotland went independent it would join the EU and adopt the Euro. Can the UK block independent Scotland from joining the EU? Though in any event an independent Scotland that adopts the Euro would have less control over its currency than it does now, since the EU is a much bigger pond than the UK so its EU representatives would have even less clout.

Practically, the UK could probably block Scotland from joining. And even if it didn't, accession to the EU would take several years, and adoption of the euro could take years more beyond that.

I say let them leave so long as we can keep Peter Capaldi.

El Guapo wrote:Ok, yeah, sounds like a bad idea.

My assumption was that if Scotland went independent it would join the EU and adopt the Euro. Can the UK block independent Scotland from joining the EU? Though in any event an independent Scotland that adopts the Euro would have less control over its currency than it does now, since the EU is a much bigger pond than the UK so its EU representatives would have even less clout.

Scotland has financials worse than Greece. Why would the EU take them? And even if they did, why would they do it within the next 5 years? The ECB is very risk-averse right now.

El Guapo wrote:Can the UK block independent Scotland from joining the EU?

I think the louder objections would come from Spain, which has its own regions with dreams of independence. Precedent and whatnot.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

El Guapo wrote:Ok, yeah, sounds like a bad idea.

My assumption was that if Scotland went independent it would join the EU and adopt the Euro. Can the UK block independent Scotland from joining the EU? Though in any event an independent Scotland that adopts the Euro would have less control over its currency than it does now, since the EU is a much bigger pond than the UK so its EU representatives would have even less clout.

Scotland has financials worse than Greece. Why would the EU take them? And even if they did, why would they do it within the next 5 years? The ECB is very risk-averse right now.

Oof. Yeah, the quotes from the EU in that article are not promising, and AWS also raises a good point re: Spain. It seems inevitable that the EU would admit an independent Scotland *eventually* (assuming the EU survives, which is very probable but not totally certain). But it seems pretty likely that they wouldn't admit Scotland very quickly (probably not within five years), and that transition period could be pretty rough for Scotland.

AWS260 wrote:

El Guapo wrote:Can the UK block independent Scotland from joining the EU?

I think the louder objections would come from Spain, which has its own regions with dreams of independence. Precedent and whatnot.

My first thought was about the Basques. I wasn't aware of the Catalonia issues.

Paul Krugman echoes what a bad idea independence would be.

Yeah, this doesn't seem like a hard call.

So Scotland is the UK's Alaska? Sounds right to me.

No, it's their Quebec.

Isgrimnur wrote:No, it's their Canada.

Yea, that sounds more accurate.