[WW] The Light and the Dark: Game Over!

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:59 pm

Orinoco wrote:Hey, I fully supported you as a Dark recruit, but when I got bumped back I had to support the village.

at least you weren't a traitor to your cause...

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:37 pm

Lassr.

Let's see if we got this one in the bank. I'm pretty sure we do.

Orinoco · Post by **Orinoco** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:06 pm

Remus West wrote:
Orinoco wrote:Actually, it feels pretty good to be on the winning side for a change (assume the village has won, which seems to be the case).
You wanted to get recruited. I stayed true to my village the entire game. No power. No knowledge. Just a lot of loyalty. Go Beige.

Yeah, but you're dead. Only live villagers get to win!

Dead zombies get unnatural things done to them by Chaosraven...

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:39 pm

Orinoco wrote:Dead zombies get unnatural things done to them by Chaosraven...

No, you people killed him. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Plus, a win for my side is a win for me, so if this is a village victory I get to claim victory as well, as does every other non-faction player.

setaside · Post by **setaside** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:33 pm

VOTING IS CLOSED

The remaining few townspeople gather around Lassr with a look of exhaustion on their faces. As they march him to the gallows in the center of town, thoughts of the devastation that the forces of light and dark had wrought on the town of Last Hope raced through their heads.

With Lassr's hanging, the town had finally driven the forces of light and dark from their town permanently. But at what cost? So many dead. So many gone. Would the town of Last Hope be able to rebuild? The war continued to wage across the planet. The chances of the battling forces making their way to Last Hope again were not impossible.

The ultimate future of Last Hope remains in question. For now, however, it is safe.

Game Over

The town is victorious!!!

setaside · Post by **setaside** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:34 pm

I'll post details about who was who in a Post-Mortem thread here shortly. Congrats to the Town. I honestly didn't think you guys would pull it off.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:37 pm

I want to know what the fuck happened. Seriously, I did not pay attention for the first several days of gametime, so my sudden seeming leadership near the end was unexpected.

Chaosraven, what was up with your stuff? Why did you lie so heavily? It made no sense at all.

pr0ner, when did you mine my house? Why did you mine my house? I was unaware of being a target from earlier in the game.

FWIW, I dedicate the win to pr0ner. It was his mine that pretty much saved us. Hive five, pr0ner.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:38 pm

setaside wrote:Game Over
The town is victorious!!!

Huzzah! Go town!

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:39 pm

So then (Lighties especially)-- why did y'all kill me without even trying to recruit me?

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:40 pm

The Dark Side

Original members: Kelric & Zurai
Night 1: recruit lassr
2. initiate lassr
3.recruit Cesare
4. Initiate Cesare
5. recruit kraegor
6. intiate kraegor (thief)
7. kraegor checks for mine and disarms at Austin's house and Cesare kills him.
8. recruit Orinoco
9. kill proner
10. tried to initiate Orinoco hoping he was lying about being bumped back. We failed, he is a villager.
11. tried to recruit Grenard-BOOM, Zurai's dead

Game over.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:42 pm

pr0ner for MVP

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:43 pm

ChrisGrenard wrote: FWIW, I dedicate the win to pr0ner. It was his mine that pretty much saved us. Hive five, pr0ner.

Yep, I confirmed with setaside that if we recruited you and you played along with the dark side (which you have no reason not too) then it would be 3 votes against 3 votes and setaside would have declared a victory for the dark. I thought we had snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Then boom. Damn you pr0ner!

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:47 pm

His fortuitous placement of a mine on the house of an innocent was key, even though the result couldn't have been planned.

What really made the difference, though, was pr0ner's decision to fight in behalf of the Village by spilling his guts even after he had been recruited. That single act of betrayal blew the game wide open and made a Village victory possible.

setaside · Post by **setaside** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:29 pm

Actually, I'm just going to urge that the post-mortem discussion happen here.

Here's the initial list of players and their roles:

13. Arcanis - Light Warrior
14. Bakhtosh - Light Warrior
07. Kelric - Dark Warrior
09. Zurai - Dark Warrior
01. Grundbegriff - Hunter/Operative
15. pr0ner - Engineer
12. Kraegor - Thief
03. Chaosraven - Scout
19. UsulofDoom - Scribe
06. Lassr - Townsperson
02. Cesare - Townsperson
08. Remus West - Townsperson
16. Archinerd - Townsperson
20. Varity - Townsperson
11. Animus - Townsperson
10. Austin - Townsperson
17. Orinoco - Townsperson
04. Chris Grenard - Townsperson
05. Mr Bubbles - Townsperson
18. PR_GMR - Townsperson

==========================

I will also post a breakdown of the nightly activities, if the factions and specials don't break it down for you themselves. I'm not going to get to that tonight though.

==========================

My questions ...

Good rules?
Bad rules?
Rules you'd change?
Rules you'd add?

How well did you like the roles?

What was your favorite part of the game?
What was your least favorite part of the game?

What would you remove?
What would you add?

What else?

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:32 am

*does a happy dance*

Grenard, I mined your house as soon as I had my first mine constructed, which would have been night 4 (I believe). I mined you because I honestly thought you were innocent, but it was just a hunch.

I mined Austin after my next mine was constructed because he asked for one. I, too, thought he was innocent. I think I was wrong for that. Thankfully, the night I mined Austin was a) the night I was recruited and b) the night Austin was killed. The PM I received from setaside said my mine had been disabled. When it was revealed Austin was dead, and that I had been recruited, I put two and two together and figured out what side the thief was on. Setaside's PM explicitly said that I could fight being recruited and try to get bounced back to the innocent pool, so that's what I did, especially since I had loads of information that, in the end, helped the village win.

I was working on another mine when I was killed. Chaosraven, you never were going to get a toy from me, since I didn't have any to give. Your begging for one amused me greatly, though.

When the game started, I honestly thought that one of the factions would win, and that the village's chances were low. However, once we started hitting faction members, faction members that spilled their guts before going to the gallows, no less, I saw some hope for the village. My info dump simply made it that much easier for the village to win.

Setaside: when you drew up this rule set, did you really think the village had a chance to win? Or did you expect a faction victory?

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:45 am

How incredibly ironic. My attitude actually got me essentially the only functioning mine, and so early in the game too.

And I, too, thought the village was totally screwed. I am really surprised that the factions failed on this one, it shows that the game itself was far more interesting than I gave it credit for.

It also strikes me as fairly ironic that pr0ner and I seemed to be the only two who really weren't going to be joining a faction quietly.

Also, I loathe to admit that after Remus died I honestly didn't know how to properly count of guess the numbers of enemies. Thus I ended up relying on others to get that info. This, it turned out, was actually pretty useful, as it somewhat forced the factions to snipe at each other to try and stay alive.

Finally, I am so damn happy that the mistake that Lassr made in his post that I caught turned out to indeed be *extremely* telling. The way it played out made it useless, but still it was rather interesting how that worked.

And hey, Lassr. I guess we're even now between last game and this game as far as lying to each other, eh?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:38 am

For all that it worked out happily for me (fie on all of you who doubted my "go beige" comments) it was the mistake of the Dark atthe end that allowed any hope of village success. If you look back at the "story of" posts I made regarding each side. Even accounting for mistakes Factions would be aware of it should have been clear that the Light had been removed with Chaosraven (you guys have no idea how upsetting that was for me, imagine wanting the guy who killed you to live, particularly HIM

)

My mistake was in thinking that the Faction sides would not A)realize there was no way pr0ner gave Chaosraven a toy, and B)give up winning themselves in favor of denying the other Faction a win, which is why I got killed.

I enjoyed this game, but think that if a three way game were to be done in the future all three sides would need and deserve players that could not be recruited. If we had a player we could have trusted to remain Village it would have made a huge difference for us.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:38 am

Yeah pr0ner, I was Light when you mined me. I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling Kraegors.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:19 am

ChrisGrenard wrote: Finally, I am so damn happy that the mistake that Lassr made in his post that I caught turned out to indeed be *extremely* telling. The way it played out made it useless, but still it was rather interesting how that worked.

And hey, Lassr. I guess we're even now between last game and this game as far as lying to each other, eh?

Funny thing is, that mistake happened just as I explained it in the posts I made afterwards...just so happens that mistake seemed to point to Zurai as an original member, which just happened to be true. It really didn't affect the game though. We would have won if it wasn't for that damn mine. I'm still mentally kicking myself for not recruiting Orinoco again. I just knew it was Austin and Chaos that was mined.

As for the lying, yeah sure we are even, I'll never lie to you again now.

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:48 am

01. Grundbegriff - Mr Bubbles
03. Chaosraven - Mr Bubbles
04. Chris Grenard - Mr Bubbles
06. Lassr - Mr Bubbles
09. Zurai - Mr Bubbles
10. Austin - Mr Bubbles
12. Kraegor - Mr Bubbles
13. Arcanis - Mr Bubbles
15. pr0ner - Mr Bubbles
17. Orinoco - Mr Bubbles
Ha.. two of the orginal roled dudes voted for me.. You tools.. But no.. you had to believe I was doing all of this for nothing.
Thats all move on...

Orinoco · Post by **Orinoco** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:03 am

I have to say that Chaosraven talked himself onto the rope at the end. I believed him when he said he was the last Light, but he kept making mysterious comments that convinced me otherwise...

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:07 am

Orinoco wrote:I have to say that Chaosraven talked himself onto the rope at the end. I believed him when he said he was the last Light, but he kept making mysterious comments that convinced me otherwise...

That' why I kept my mouth shut for the most part he seemed to be doing a good job for me.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:18 am

Grund, we thought about recruiting you, hoping that the other side would avoid you, but a comment made early on made me skittish...someone suggested that we start lynching the high profile players after each side had a couple of initiates. We therefore couldn't recruit you, so we had to deny you to both the darks and the village before a mine could be placed on your house.

Light actions:
Bakhtosh & Arcanis
1) Recruit ChaosRaven
2) Recruit Austin
3) Initiate Austin
4) Send ChaosRaven to Assassinate Grundbegriff
5) Initiate ChaosRaven
- At this point, there were 6 players who had never been scanned or whose role was unknown, so we were hoping to Scan, recruit/kill, lynch for 2 turns to eliminate the unknowns
6) Scan Cesare (DARK), Recruit Lassr (FAIL)
- I asked Lassr if he had anything to tell the group. He said, 'no' which meant that he didn't get recruited & bumped (although it was possible, but unlikely, that both sides tried recruiting him that night), which meant that he was a full Dark member. From this point on, I'm going by sketchy information:
7) Scan Zurai (Dark), Recruit Pr0ner
8) Scan ?, Send Pr0ner to recruit ChaosRaven
9) Scan ?, Recruit Ornioco
10) Scan ?, Kill Remus West
11) Light Extinguished.

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:22 am

With the double whammy of pr0ner and chaos coming forward in one round and essentially outing our entire team, things looked fairly grim.

that the dark came so close to winning was a nice twist. nice work lassr/zurai! outta smack ya for trying to recruit chris when you KNEW orinoco didnt have a mine! did you think he was light?

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:29 am

Kraegor wrote:With the double whammy of pr0ner and chaos coming forward in one round and essentially outing our entire team, things looked fairly grim.

that the dark came so close to winning was a nice twist. nice work lassr/zurai! outta smack ya for trying to recruit chris when you KNEW orinoco didnt have a mine! did you think he was light?

Lassr wrote:
Orinoco wrote:
Lassr wrote:
Orinoco wrote:
ChrisGrenard wrote:Well, isn't that interesting.

I see no reason not to lynch Lassr today. Hands?
Agreed - Lynch Lassr!
I actually thought about recruiting you again but you were so unappreciative last time we thought we'd give another a chance.

What was it, did you not like the benefits? The restaurants discounts were nice I thought.
Hey, I fully supported you as a Dark recruit, but when I got bumped back I had to support the village. I was kinda hoping I'd be recruited again
The one thought that made me go another way was IF there was another light initiate out there I figured they'd try to recruit you since they were able to bump you back to the pool. I couldn't afford a collision last night but ended up with an even worse collision. Damn you proner!

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:35 am

lol, oh...

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:38 am

Kraegor wrote:<sitting on a roof>

Found a head and an arm in da garbage can
Don't know why I'm here
Livin' on the run for oh so long
I gotta go collect
Double talkin' jive
Get the money motherfucker
'Cause I got no more patience
Double talkin'
-I got (lies)-
No more patience man

Back in town an'a all new friends
They sayin' how ya been?
Fucked up and outta place
That's how I felt back then
Double talkin' jive
Get the money motherfucker
'Cause I got no more patience
Double talkin'
-I got (lies)-
No more patience man
You dig what I'm sayin'?!

so round and round we go. Who wants ta volunteer for death? Dont wanna break the trend, right?

posted the night i was recruited....

Question: how obvious was the above?

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:41 am

obvious enough to think you were the thief...

I think it was the vampire game where someone commented that you like to leave hints in your songs and I stated I've noticed that (which was referring back to this game and the hint you dropped in that song about being a thief).

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:45 am

Lassr wrote:obvious enough to think you were the thief...

I think it was the vampire game where someone commented that you like to leave hints in your songs and I stated I've noticed that (which was referring back to this game and the hint you dropped in that song about being a thief).

lol. actually that discovery was inaccurate. I've only left real hints in this game.

The other games my quotes were more often than not simply humor and misdirection.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:47 am

Kraegor wrote:
Lassr wrote:obvious enough to think you were the thief...

I think it was the vampire game where someone commented that you like to leave hints in your songs and I stated I've noticed that (which was referring back to this game and the hint you dropped in that song about being a thief).
lol. actually that discovery was inaccurate. I've only left real hints in this game.

The other games my quotes were more often than not simply humor and misdirection.

Yeah, I realized that after the vampire game. I thought your song in that game was hinting you were the PrV but that ended up not being the case.

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:45 pm

Our initial plan was to never recruit Grund. We were trying to stick to middle of the road players who might get passed over.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:53 pm

Bakhtosh wrote:Grund, we thought about recruiting you, hoping that the other side would avoid you, but a comment made early on made me skittish...someone suggested that we start lynching the high profile players after each side had a couple of initiates. We therefore couldn't recruit you, so we had to deny you to both the darks and the village before a mine could be placed on your house.

I can't say I get it, but thanks for the explanation.

In the pat-myself-on-the-stabbed-in-the-assassinated-back dept., here's a PM I sent to setaside right before my assassination:

From: Grundbegriff
To: setaside
Posted: 2007 Mar 09, Fri 01:36 am
Subject: speculation

If all goes according to my design, the Side that attempted to recruit or initiate Kraegor last night will recruit me tonight.

At this point-- on Day #3 before the lynching-- I suspect the four original Members are among these six:

Lassr
Bakhtosh
Kelric
Arcanis
Chaosraven
pr0ner

If I had to guess, which I don't, I'd guess that Kraegor either is the Thief or wants people to think he's the Thief. Someone was negated when I protected him on Night #3. That person was probably lured by my farthing gesture, and Kraegor continues to lament that nobody has recruited him yet, so I must've prevented a Recruitment rather than an Initiation.

I have no idea at this point who the Engineer is. My guess for Scout would be Remus at this juncture, and I'd suppose he must've scanned Bubbles on Night #1 and me on Night #3. (Otherwise, I'd make Remus as an Original).

Zurai bothers me, but Zurai always bothers me. I suspect he was recruited on Night #2. Archinerd also bothers me. He may be suffering from newbitude, but perhaps he belongs on the List of Six instead of Arcanis....

See? If you had recruited me instead of killing me, I'd have busted the game open for you.

{Edit: Oh, and FWIW, I protected Zurai, Varity, Kraegor, Zurai.}

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:59 am

I had been trying to explain to my generous Light Masters that they should initiate me RIGHT AWAY. As I had VITAL INFO for them.

And IIRC I *only* lied about the pr0ner initiation...

since the dark would assume I had some form of protection.

When it came down to Just Me (after Arcanis was lynched) I thought by killing someone it would be obvious there was Only Me left.

Recruiting was pointless... you guys had the Wagon set up as soon as day started, with my name on it. So I get lynched and the Recruit does nothing.

Lucky for the village the Dark chose the One of Four that lost them the game.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:36 am

Chaosraven wrote:Lucky for the village the Dark chose the One of Four that lost them the game.

I think this is quite an interesting ruleset. I'm undecided about whether the balance needs tweaking. The Village's victory demonstrates that such a thing is possible; the accidental character of the Village's victory demonstrates that it may have occurred in spite of an imbalance.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:24 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:The Village's victory demonstrates that such a thing is possible; the accidental character of the Village's victory demonstrates that it may have occurred in spite of an imbalance.

I think you could maybe make it harder to initiate a recruit to give the village more of a chance. Maybe a recruit should be required to do a mission (recruit/kill) before they can be initiated. That way it takes three nights to become full members and gives the village better chance. Had the village lynched one of the Dark rather than Chaosraven both factions would have been down to one Member and no recruits. By the time the village then lynched both "known" faction members, the second Faction lynched would have a new unknown Member.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:26 pm

What about the fun factor?

For the players who stayed in the game longer than I did: was this enjoyable, or did it degenerate into a numbers game played only by a couplethree people while others basically did nothing?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:30 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:What about the fun factor?

For the players who stayed in the game longer than I did: was this enjoyable, or did it degenerate into a numbers game played only by a couplethree people while others basically did nothing?

I had a lot of fun, but I was one of the folks looking at the numbers angle once there was open information to work with.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:52 pm

It was fun for me also but that's because I actually saw a small doorway that could lead to a dark victory until pr0ner shut it on my fraking fingers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:05 pm

It was fun. Of course it was the first game I made it past night 2 I think.

Anyway, I like the idea of sending a recruit before initiating. However if that was a new rule I think that it would be less desirable to have every recruit say they were recruited, to help the village. Although leaving that in does increase the human factor and makes a faction guess what that person would do.

thoughts?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:26 pm

Austin wrote:It was fun. Of course it was the first game I made it past night 2 I think.

Anyway, I like the idea of sending a recruit before initiating. However if that was a new rule I think that it would be less desirable to have every recruit say they were recruited, to help the village. Although leaving that in does increase the human factor and makes a faction guess what that person would do.

thoughts?

I think it up to the player to "confess" if they want. Had the Dark not killed pr0ner the village would have had to at some point. Announcing that you have been recruited starts your own doom clock. The village will have to kill you at some point so it comes down to how hard you want to fight for which side.

One thing to balance that which I had mentioned earlier is that the village could be given "core" members that can not be recruited and can hamper the Factions efforts. Make them an actual third faction and the rest of the village a pool from which the three side draw. The "village" faction would be constrained by the same recruit/mission/initiate rules as the other two with their only advantage being that the majority does not start the game wanting them dead. More possibilities for night collisions and mayhem.