World of Darkness-Game Over- Kindred Win

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El Guapo
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Re: World of Darkness-Game Over- Kindred Win

Post by El Guapo »

Remus West wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Yeah, see, that's not what it says. It doesn't say, "whoever wins is forgiven." It says "everyone dies, but here's a fun way to do it."
Yeah, but Vampire is tricksy folks and tru1cy just has to be Malkavian so he likely just changed his mind since we amused him. :lol:
Sure.....sure the vampire prince decided to dispense with the Masquerade, the "Prime Directive" of the vampire World of Darkness world.

I'm just saying it couldn't hurt to invest in that deluxe stake-guard.
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Re: World of Darkness-Game Over- Kindred Win

Post by tru1cy »

El Guapo wrote:
Remus West wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Yeah, see, that's not what it says. It doesn't say, "whoever wins is forgiven." It says "everyone dies, but here's a fun way to do it."
Yeah, but Vampire is tricksy folks and tru1cy just has to be Malkavian so he likely just changed his mind since we amused him. :lol:
Sure.....sure the vampire prince decided to dispense with the Masquerade, the "Prime Directive" of the vampire World of Darkness world.

I'm just saying it couldn't hurt to invest in that deluxe stake-guard.

Actually I was going to just kill them at the end, but a Malk prince could have forgotten the rules :P
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Post by Austin »

That was wild. I knew I had to stay alive but my star was weak. A) I had decided before hand to try and stay away from Grund and B) I really had to be afk for much of the first couple RL days. The Grund thing I just played wrong and came back aggressively to try and act like my old self. I knew I could at least buy myself the next night when I would sire; just in case. I even invited the mage to scan me. If you read the vampire forum, you'll see that I later regretted that.

I was pretty sure I was being scanned but figured I'd just hope not. When smutly came forward I had about 5 or 10 minutes to figure out what to do. I was just hoping whatever it was that Remus could see it and get on board. I thought about coming out as the real mage but I'm not sure that the mage is valuable enough for you guys to come out against. Why not wait and see if I had scanned one of you? (if I was the mage)

I had dropped a few really lose priest clues, not really wanting anyone to pick up on them. Just in case. I came out as the priest hoping that Cesare was the priest and wasn't coming back. :P When Genghis came out I knew I'd have to find something to begin my smear campaign. Turns out there were a couple posts that were very twistable. (The confusion over the priest role mixed with the knowledge of vampire roles really made him look bad with the right twist.

My biggest fear now was Remus getting impatient and piling on me to save himself. His first post after my coming out had me concerned. However he played it beautifully. I thought he was going to have to throw caution to the wind and come out as the real mage to try and get us a sire. He went the other way, which I wasn't at all expecting (none of this was planned) and pleaded for the mage to stay hidden. I got to play confident that the mage was coming while enjoying cover in Remus' pleas for the mage to stay hidden. Awesome, just awesome Remus.

Anyway, it was going well until Cesare and Krash returned. At that point I was counting the votes I could count on. It was getting close and soon as things started turning I could totally have seen everyone coming to their senses and killing me. I was getting extremely concerned and wasn't sure if votes could be withdrawn. (Ask Tru1cy about the HURRY UP! PM :P)

Wow, it was a rollercoaster and really exciting. Check out the vampire forums though and see that this was not planned. I took a stab and Remus picked up on it perfectly. Newcaslte did a great job taking out Grund for us too. (Of course getting the hunter on day 1 is almost as good as mageing a hunter on day 1) I sure would have loved to have had Grund fall for our ruse though. ;)
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Post by Smutly »

Newcastle wrote:just wanted to add

I can empathize with Smutly's play. I am sure he must have been frustrated as hell, that he was pointing to a Vampire who he knew would sire a 3rd if given a chance. I am not going to condemn it or justify it. Just saying I can see where he would be frustrated as heck knowing that he had found a vampire, but the villagers were simply not taking his claim serious enough.
Yes, it was extremely frustrating for me and I don't know what else I could have said or done to get you guys to believe me. I was pretty damn excited when I scanned Austin and discovered his true colors because I figured we would have the vampires by the balls because I could have been protected by the priest and then gotten in another scan. Instead, the whole thing turned to shit.

When I "turned traitor", I honestly wasn't even thinking of it in those terms. I was thinking that the village just fucked itself and that there was a tremendous advantage to becoming a vampire. With Austin's soon-to-be-realized death, and the villager's likelihood to believe me with Genghis' death, I would be able to keep the villagers from lynching a vampire for a turn or so. I'm sorry everyone took it as a big "fuck you" and thought it was bone-headed, but in my opinion the biggest bone-head move was not listening to what I thought was a pretty empassioned and logical argument for believing me. So yeah, when things shifted the other way I knew the villagers were screwed and my move obviously didn't help them.

LordMortis referred to my move as "reasonable" (needs further definement for some) and Newcastle at least understand where I was coming from, but I had no idea Grund was going to go off on me about it. If Tru1cy would have told me that the move was illegal or "not cool" then I would have scanned -- no questions asked. He didn't, though. I am most angry at myself for voting against myself (due to frustration) when no one would believe me. At the time I was out of my mind that Austin and company (of which I included McNutt at the time for his posts against me) had pulled the wool over the villager's eyes. I really am still in disbelief that no one believed the only person coming out as the new mage.

I think what I've learned in this game is that if you're an innocent, don't even skirt close to acting like you're not one. Come out, say it, and be consistent in your logic for why you're voting. If you mess up, just be honest and say it. Keeping quiet and/or being shifty just muddies the water and makes the villager's job that much more difficult. I think the village had a lot going against it without my faux pas. The village definitely has to be involved to "pull their load" or they will be fucked.

Genghis, man, I wish you would have just stayed in the background, my friend. I could be wrong, but I think your backing me did more to hurt what I was trying to sell.

Anyway, I'll apologize again for going against the spirit of the game. Being my third game, I didn't see it that way. For amends I will offer to host any "Bad Guy" strategy on my phpBB. It's a personal one that I use to store info for other games I play and so it sees very little traffic at all. If you don't already have access to a private message board, just send me a PM and I can set it up for you. Since Rip hosts the message board anyway for me, it's a small way to give back. Sorry, guys.
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Post by Austin »

I didn't want to distract from the game by discussing this during. I guess I want to voice my support for smutly. I wouldn't have made that play (Last ditches can win :P) but I understand the frustration of being ignored. I'd be happy to have smutly play in a game I hosted as I think he's a good player from what I've seen. Anyone can get frustrated and screw up and he stayed in the rules. At least he came clean; he could have lied about it. I think for those who are PO'd at the play a second chance is at least in order.
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Post by McNutt »

Let me say upfrong that Smutly and I have been friends for almost twenty years. I know through talking with him that he was unbelievably frustrated when he thought he had dropped the bomb on the vampires, only to have it dismissed and vampire trickery. I wasn't happy with his decision to skip the scan and PM the other side, but I know that when he did it he did not think of it as a cockhole move. He enjoyed the game and was very disappointed with the negative reaction he received.

I'd let him play again too.
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Smutly wrote:Anyway, I'll apologize again for going against the spirit of the game. Being my third game, I didn't see it that way. For amends I will offer to host any "Bad Guy" strategy on my phpBB.... Sorry, guys.
Never let it be said that I'm too hard-nosed to moderate my stance when a guy comes clean, acknowledges he was wrongheaded, and makes a goodwill gesture to offset the harm.

(The Mage's use of a PM to try to defect under these rules is similar to a Vampire contacted by a Mentalist who uses that occasion to reveal the identities of other Vampires. Possible? Yes. The intended purpose of that kind of transaction? Hardly.)

Technically, your move was permissible, Smutly. One of the lessons learned is that the uses of a Mage's PMs should be more clearly defined (or deliberately left vague with the understanding that defection is a risk). However, thinking your move through apart from the emotions of the moment would've shown you that the Vamps wouldn't and couldn't accept your offer to defect, since normals were already doubting you.

The correct approach when your play is failing to persuade folks as it should is to play better, not to give up, throw a tantrum, and try to defect. Of course, you can't learn to play better if you don't practice, so I do think folks should continue to sign you up if you wish.

But try not to Sorc out unless doing so is not only in the letter of the rules, but also in their spirit.
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Post by Lassr »

Newcastle wrote:just wanted to add

I can empathize with Smutly's play. I am sure he must have been frustrated as hell, that he was pointing to a Vampire who he knew would sire a 3rd if given a chance. I am not going to condemn it or justify it. Just saying I can see where he would be frustrated as heck knowing that he had found a vampire, but the villagers were simply not taking his claim serious enough.
I too understood smutly's frustration. I was literally screaming at the monitor when it became obvious the village was going in the wrong direction. Why would a vampire come forward and claim to be a role that was still active just to get lynched. The game was lost when Genghis was lynched. If they lynched smutly at least they wouldn't have been able to sire a childer because Genghis would have protected Austin and victory would have still been possible.

So while smutly's move was a low blow it was not illegal and would make some since if you felt the village was lost and you wanted to be on the winning side. I thought he played a good game and would have no problem with him playing in one of my games.

The one bad mistake of frustration was the killing vote for Genghis, would have been nice if Genghis would have had one last attempt to sway the masses.
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Post by Lassr »

Grundbegriff wrote:
Smutly wrote:Anyway, I'll apologize again for going against the spirit of the game. Being my third game, I didn't see it that way. For amends I will offer to host any "Bad Guy" strategy on my phpBB.... Sorry, guys.
Never let it be said that I'm too hard-nosed to moderate my stance when a guy comes clean, acknowledges he was wrongheaded, and makes a goodwill gesture to offset the harm.
Oh Lord, he's going soft on us...Grund has a heart!? :D
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Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

I understood your frustration, Smutly, but I think if you had thought things through and not reacted so emotionally you would have realized that your PM wouldn't work. But, to me, that wasn't as bad as knowingly (well, almost knowingly) casting the deciding vote for Genghis when you had to believe he was telling the truth. There was still time to turn people around to your side.
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Post by Newcastle »

/brings out the casio keyboard, and starts to play the Beatles "give peace a chance.'

/sings

"Give Smutly a chance."
:D

nice to see you apologize like that man.

So is there gonna be a man hug between you and grund there...to... ya know...solidify the making up process, seal the bond of forgiveness so to speak. :D
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Post by Kelric »

I believe I said it on the vampire board (haha, we win! ;) ) but I had linked Genghis and Smutly together in my mind so strongly that when Genghis made no sense to me, his seeming guilt just made Smutly seem guilty as well. That was also a time when I was skimming through posts and not paying terribly good attention, so I wound up skipping over some of what Smutly said.

Luckily I got turned and all you innocents wound up dying and losing. :P

My initial reaction to Smutly was my real one - I hadn't yet found out that I had been turned to a vampire. It was not a move I appreciate. It's a legal move, but one that I don't like and don't support.

Plus, I was drinking Friday and Sunday nights during/after the Sox/Yankees games, so my cognitive ability was slightly more impaired than usual.
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Post by Krash »

Kelric wrote: My initial reaction to Smutly was my real one - I hadn't yet found out that I had been turned to a vampire. It was not a move I appreciate. It's a legal move, but one that I don't like and don't support.
Yeah, sucked for me that I judged your reaction that you made while you were still under the pretense you were still normal. Oh well, guess I judged correctly since you didn't know either.

BTW - is it normal for BadGuys to know the results of their nightly scans before they choose their kill? It seems a little overpowering. If the mage had to wait for the results at the end of the night, it would seem the BadGuys should also. Is that how it's always done? I've never played a BadGuy.
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Post by Grundbegriff »

The rules change from game to game. House rules, so to speak.
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Post by Chaosraven »

I was astounded NONE of you figured out that Remus killed me.

Hmmm... It would be really easy to get chaos lynched... all one has to do is point the finger and vote and three to four out of ten people will join you with no other evidence... so WHY kill him? Perhaps he had an ability... but WHO would scan Chaos that early?

And as far as thinking it a Frame... sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Though I did enjoy the Three Days Grace as you were all calling for the hunter... that must have been excruciating for the Vampires to bite back their comments... HE'S DEAD! PROCEED! HE'S DEAD LET IT GO!!
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Post by Mr Bubbles »

Chaosraven wrote:I was astounded NONE of you figured out that Remus killed me.

Hmmm... It would be really easy to get chaos lynched... all one has to do is point the finger and vote and three to four out of ten people will join you with no other evidence... so WHY kill him? Perhaps he had an ability... but WHO would scan Chaos that early?

And as far as thinking it a Frame... sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Though I did enjoy the Three Days Grace as you were all calling for the hunter... that must have been excruciating for the Vampires to bite back their comments... HE'S DEAD! PROCEED! HE'S DEAD LET IT GO!!
May I have to remind you.. Remus was on my radar.. I may not have kept my vote for him, but if I had more time to play I would have nailed his ass.
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Post by Remus West »

Bad Guys do not usually have a scan ability. I think it tilts things in their favor but I also think things should be tilted in their favor. I think it should be more difficult for the village to win.

The Smutly play amuses me mostly for its reaction. pr0ner made the exact same play and worse (he had already been turned) in the Light/Dark game and was praised for it. Smutly wants to be turned here and gets yelled at for it. To my mind, the only bad play Smutly made was the Genghis vote, that was when his frustration was evident. I was prepared to come forward and risk the entire game on making sure Austin made it through the day to convert someone. We had tried the night before but friggin Ralph-Wiggum had to be a sibling and deny us the change or I would happily have jumped on a bandwagon to kill Austin.

Krash, when I said you were overlooking the Vampires voting for each other I was telling the complete truth. When I started calling out Newcastle the first day it was with the impression that I was hosed for my "innocents" comment and was trying to give him some cover for later. When it came down to Grund announcing his Magehood I was more than happy to lynch Newcastle and thus remove Grund from the game, we already knew Chaosraven was the Hunter and thus was not going to be shooting anyone.

P.S. I want it noted that I totally killed Chaosraven the first night and got away with it. :twisted: Bastage, thats my revenge for killing me in the Light/Dark game. :lol:
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Chaosraven wrote:I was astounded NONE of you figured out that Remus killed me.
What are you talking about?
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Remus West wrote:The Smutly play amuses me mostly for its reaction. pr0ner made the exact same play and worse (he had already been turned) in the Light/Dark game and was praised for it. Smutly wants to be turned here and gets yelled at for it.
Yeah, but that was specifically allowed and potentially encouraged by the ruleset. I even addressed those nuances in my StratGuide for Light/Dark.

Apples and bananas.
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Post by Newcastle »

Chaosraven wrote: Though I did enjoy the Three Days Grace as you were all calling for the hunter... that must have been excruciating for the Vampires to bite back their comments... HE'S DEAD! PROCEED! HE'S DEAD LET IT GO!!
You're telling me...i knew you were dead; and had to give the pretense of the hunter still being bout about. I was a dead man walking there..and knew that my "death" would be dragged out. I was hoping that the hunters not showing up, would somehow give the villagers pause. I guess when you got 10 people calling your name, your chances are...uhm quite slim .

On one hand i was laughing pretty hard, everyone was demanding the hunter step forward and take me out. On the other hand...it sucks knowing you are dead, and having your death dragged out. I guess the saving grace of the experience was that i was able to take out Grund.

I was hoping though, that i could somehow squirm out of it...just shows that i don't have Austin & Remus' squirming and sowing seeds of misdirection ability.
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Post by Kelric »

I think the entire game could have gone differently (obviously) if Grund had stuck to his guns about Remus. Backing off really seemed to hurt, even if we did wind up getting Newcastle. I think the fact that Grund seemed to have backed away from Remus led me to think of him as more of an innocent.
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Post by Grundbegriff »

As Chaosraven once noted, I tend to make mistakes in two categories in these games. First, I overemphasize the notion that folks will play rationally and underemphasize the notion that they'll play based on whims, hunches, and emotions. This sometimes causes me to overlook possibilities that don't seem to me to be in play.

Second-- and this is the relevant factor in the present discussion-- I sometimes communicate ineffectively in the game by leaving things implicit, communicating indirectly, and otherwise playing a language game in which I might be the sole participant.

In this game, that happened, and I didn't recognize it until too late.

I was confident that Remus was a Vampire, because there's just no way that a person not thinking in those terms accidentally types "poke the innocents". He was thinking of the players in general as "innocents" and therefore of himself as one of the "guilty".

I laid out a clear case against him before toying with Ralph and finally outing Newcastle. I indicted Remus here and here and here and here. I tried to coax him into emulating the Mage here, so I could catch him in that lie with my own self-outing and demise.

I even called him the Tremere (Seer) Vampire, just as I had called Newcastle some sort of Brujah. I again called him the Tremere here. ("Clear-sighted" wasn't a way of calling him the Good-Guy Seer; I was that Seer. It was a way of calling him the Vampire Seer.)

So when I typed "... Remus is currently not a Vampire. As soon as he understood what I was, he was completely helpful and compliant" I was being sarcastic, especially toward Remus, with the expectation that he would understand, and with the reasonable hope that several others would do so, too. After all Remus knew he had screwed up and that there was no good explanation. I thought Kelric was keyed into that fact, too.

That's why that one line proclaiming Remus's innocence was so much longer than my comments on everyone else. It was supposed to come across as piling on the reassurances, in a rolly-eyed spirit.

Too much subtlety. I do it because I think it's more fun, more gamelike, than simply announcing solutions to puzzles.

(I also dropped a big hint right here that Ralph and Lassr were probably the Siblings. Nobody got it, though Krash or someone came close.)

I honestly expected that that the crowd would take Remus down next, and would then hunt for the final vamp among { Austin | Genghis | Smutly }. I was totally caught off guard when everyone took my remark literally, at face value, despite the ladles of evidence I had poured out. It was flabberghastly, after my demise, to see the rest of the game played out as if nothing we had done on the first day by way of discovery had even happened....

Next time, I'll speak English.

(BTW, I should say that I'm not yet good at reading Austin, and that although I had found him "troublingly Vampiric", he wasn't my top suspect, and (had I been bulletproof), it would've taken me a couplethree turns to pin him down and second-guess his spawning practices. I wouldn't have fallen for his Priest act, but I might've fallen for his chaotic good Normal act.)
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Kelric wrote:I think the entire game could have gone differently (obviously) if Grund had stuck to his guns about Remus. Backing off really seemed to hurt, even if we did wind up getting Newcastle. I think the fact that Grund seemed to have backed away from Remus led me to think of him as more of an innocent.
I thought the case against Remus was in the bag, that the people who had voted against him wouldn't simply forget all the evidence, and that people wouldn't turn on a dime just because I did.

I needed to turn my attention to framing an innocent (Ralph) to gather information before I ended my day (and life) by outing Newcastle. I never dreamed the withering indictment of Remus would simply evaporate.

Far fewer posts than normal? Dead Chaosraven? Poke the innocents? Math teacher mishandles the odds? Wack strategy prescriptions for the Elder Brujah when Remus knows better? Vouching for my humanity when he's normally Mr. Caution? My calling him the Tremere?

It's a fault of mine that I'm too allusive. But was it really so unreasonable to think that some of this would stick?
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Post by Chaosraven »

Grundbegriff wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:I was astounded NONE of you figured out that Remus killed me.
What are you talking about?
Grundbegriff wrote:Withdraw Remus West, and permit me to recommend that others do likewise for now.

He's a Normal. If he were a Special he'd have fought more. If he were a Vampire, he'd have fought more.
Grundbegriff wrote:On balance, and with an asterisk beside his name, Remus* is likely human.

*(but could be a Vampire).

Innocents: Grundbegriff, Ralph-Wiggum, Krash, Kelric, Lassr, Cesare, Remus

Therefore:

Innocents: Grundbegriff, Ralph-Wiggum, Krash, Kelric, Lassr, Cesare, Remus
-lots of scenario stuff removed
Nuthin' :wink:
"Where are you off to?"
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Post by Chaosraven »

The danger in those games of language (perhaps like a Hunter with 2 shots making reference to Lays Potato Chips or making Pairs of People I'd Kill on a list) is what happens when you're not around to explain it to the masses...

...they won't have read enough into it or assume they had read too much into it and discount it.

Laying the groundwork leaves something to be desired when the other players don't seem to have the cypher required... Boy have I learned this one.

Between my roles of Scout in LightDark where I attempted to clue in every player I scanned with a poke at their role, to the Twelve Fiasco where I tried to pop a #1 and #2 into every post I made, to my first night (LAST night) list in this game.
"Where are you off to?"
"I don't know," Snufkin replied.
The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

Sweet sweet meat come. -LordMortis
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Chaosraven wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:Withdraw Remus West, and permit me to recommend that others do likewise for now.

He's a Normal. If he were a Special he'd have fought more. If he were a Vampire, he'd have fought more.
Grundbegriff wrote:On balance, and with an asterisk beside his name, Remus* is likely human.

*(but could be a Vampire).
Yeah. That was to give me enough plausible cover to lead a fake assault on Ralph. I thought the asterisk would keep me covered, since it seemed to me that the case against Remus was clear.
Chaosraven wrote:
Innocents: Grundbegriff, Ralph-Wiggum, Krash, Kelric, Lassr, Cesare, Remus

Therefore:

Innocents: Grundbegriff, Ralph-Wiggum, Krash, Kelric, Lassr, Cesare, Remus
-lots of scenario stuff removed
Nuthin' :wink:
You're not distinguishing calculation and manipulation from argumentation. But in the end, the fault for that lack of clarity is mine. I made some assumptions.

Let me state for the record that if I accuse someone, maybe I think he's guilty and maybe I think he's innocent. If I change from one target to another, maybe I think the guy no longer in my crosshairs is guilty, and maybe I think he's innocent, and maybe I think the new target is guilty and maybe I think he's innocent. If I state that someone's innocent or guilty, maybe I'm doing that sincerely and maybe I'm aiming to manipulate a particular person or situation.

How to proceed amid such uncertainty? Not by following me blindly and taking my every word at face value, but by examining and evaluating for yourself the quality and meaning of the evidence I dredge up.

If it's painfully obvious that X is a Vampire because he has made a blunder that only a Vampire would make, and if a bunch of circumstantial evidence reinforces the point, and I suddenly, inexplicably declare that he's not a Vampire after all, then do you shut down your frontal lobe and follow me there? Or do you read between the lines?
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Post by Smutly »

Gotta leave for work, but thanks for accepting my apology.
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Post by Remus West »

Grund, your biggest issue is the same as Chaosraven's. You both put so many ideas out there that nobody really follows all of them. When you put up multiple lists with my name on them I get to pick and choose which to use when you are gone. You'll notice the one I quoted had me listed at the top of the Human chain. Sure, I was seperated from everyone else by spacing but that just makes it look as though you are that much more confident in my Humanity instead of less. People read into things what they want to read into things and when folks were willing to back off of me BEFORE you came out against Newcastle you should have known you had a problem. The very least thing you should have done was declare me Vampiric in your final listing openly if you were so certain. Had you done that I am willing to bet that I would have been lynched shortly there after. When you talk about all the circumstancial evidence you forget that we have all played enough of these games and been lynched while innocent enough that folks are more willing to let some things slide in search of the perfect target.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Yep.
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Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

I think that if you just kept on the Remus train on that first day, Grund, we would've gotten enough people on board to stake him. I'm not sure I really understand what the point of turning attention away from him if you believed him to be a vamp (even if you still meant to convey subtley your idea that Remus was a vampire). And, since you knew you were probably going to die that night, you could've also come out with the information about Newcastle after Remus' death. In these games where everyone suspects everyone else, it sometimes works best, IMO, to speak plainly and forwardly.
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:I think that if you just kept on the Remus train on that first day, Grund, we would've gotten enough people on board to stake him.
Sure. I've had good luck bandwagoning anyone I target on Day#1, partly because people have nothing better to do on Day#1. If I had wanted Remus over the edge, it wouldn't have been hard to put him there. Doing so would've been a mistake, since I was aiming for the one-two punch by way of the Hunter.
I'm not sure I really understand what the point of turning attention away from him if you believed him to be a vamp (even if you still meant to convey subtley your idea that Remus was a vampire).
The point of bandwagoning an innocent and taking him close to the edge-- something I've done in several games-- is to see who is willing to vote against that person, and how casually, and when.

I was doing that to you, in the conviction that you were likely innocent, to try to identify the third Vampire-- something I wasn't able to do.
And, since you knew you were probably going to die that night, you could've also come out with the information about Newcastle after Remus' death.
How would I have known that Remus wasn't the Lesser Brujah and that he wouldn't kill me when lynched? Sure, I suspected he was the Tremere, but at the moment when I undertook this plan, tru1cy had only revealed to me that Newcastle was a Vampire, not yet the additional detail that he was the Lesser B. I believe I only received confirmation of which Vampire Newcastle was after I had already led the frontal assault on you.

Clearly, I had to play in light of the possibility that Remus was the Berserker until I had a reliable basis for acting otherwise.
In these games where everyone suspects everyone else, it sometimes works best, IMO, to speak plainly and forwardly.
Yep. It's not as much fun to be simple and direct, but it's even less fun to play complexly and indirectly and thereby fail to communicate.
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Post by LordMortis »

As far as the smutly play goes... His goal is to be on the side that's winning. The moment he sees that he can see the vampires are going to win then it's reasonable to want to be on the vampire's side. The problem with his play was not that he turned traitor but rather he blew his leverage by PMing Austin and asking to be turned. He gave the vampires all of his power and then they'd have no need for him, the more obvious of turning choices. If he had scanned then they'd have to wonder who he scanned and turning him would be better choice. The play was wrong IMO, but the desire to screw the village and join the vampires was completely reasonable, frustration or not.
Mr Bubbles wrote:May I have to remind you.. Remus was on my radar.. I may not have kept my vote for him, but if I had more time to play I would have nailed his ass.
Having radar is no good unless you use it.
Remus West wrote:Bad Guys do not usually have a scan ability. I think it tilts things in their favor but I also think things should be tilted in their favor. I think it should be more difficult for the village to win.
I generally like the feeling of a game better with the game weighted in the village's favor. The feeling of a game that balanced for the village that slowly loses power is great sense of paranoia for the village while the wolves also get more paranoid as they have less sheep to hide amongst. The feeling of a game balanced for the wolves is one where the village starts out in dread and then move along to hopelessness while the wolves just try not step on the wrong square.

I'd be most concerned about simply over powering the game in an effort to create balance but I've already expressed that concern in Raven's meta thread.
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Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

Grundbegriff wrote:about
How would I have known that Remus wasn't the Lesser Brujah and that he wouldn't kill me when lynched? Sure, I suspected he was the Tremere, but at the moment when I undertook this plan, tru1cy had only revealed to me that Newcastle was a Vampire, not yet the additional detail that he was the Lesser B.
Good point - I forgot about that part (that it wasn't until later that you knew who Newcastle was). BTW, good job on scanning a vamp on the first night.
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Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

P.S. I definitely feel that the game was weighted in favor of the vamps. With a potential 4 vamps after the first night (vs. 10 regulars), the vamps start the game with more than half the votes needed to gain a majority. That's pretty powerful.
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:BTW, good job on scanning a vamp on the first night.
Thanks, but it's just dumb luck. Anyone could've been a Vamp. I scanned Newcastle because he's a good player and I wanted to know what he was up to. In particular, I was setting the stage to PM him and arrange a conspiracy, but when he turned out to be vampy, I had to go with that.
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Post by LordMortis »

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:P.S. I definitely feel that the game was weighted in favor of the vamps. With a potential 4 vamps after the first night (vs. 10 regulars), the vamps start the game with more than half the votes needed to gain a majority. That's pretty powerful.
While a big issue I don't think it was the biggest issue. The biggest issue is in the opening power of scan and kill. In a game with heavy powers it allows the vampire gain information about the village that the village can't get and then use it against them. First, I know whom player x is. If they are worth killing then second I kill them and store that knowledge. If they are not worth kililng then second I kill someone else and still store the knowledge of player x. In both instances it's a whole set of knowledge the village doesn't get that can be used against them. And though I prefer it to go the other way, it's all good. It just would have made the village victory that much sweeter had they won.
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Post by Remus West »

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:P.S. I definitely feel that the game was weighted in favor of the vamps. With a potential 4 vamps after the first night (vs. 10 regulars), the vamps start the game with more than half the votes needed to gain a majority. That's pretty powerful.
Yes it was, but that was not what caused the village to go down, it just accelerated it.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
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Post by Lassr »

Grundbegriff wrote: I thought the case against Remus was in the bag, that the people who had voted against him wouldn't simply forget all the evidence, and that people wouldn't turn on a dime just because I did.
I too thought he was a vampire from his comments about Chaos and the "innocent" slip. But I backed off the first day because it looked like he was not going to get lynched and I didn't want to put myself in his cross hairs by pressing too much, I had a brother to protect. Ended up not mattering since they tried to convert Ralph that night and we both died anyhow.

But I thought that after Remus led everyone down the wrong track with Austin/Genghis/smutly that everyone would look at him but he was pretty much ignored the whole game as a vampire.
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Post by Remus West »

Lassr wrote:But I thought that after Remus led everyone down the wrong track with Austin/Genghis/smutly that everyone would look at him but he was pretty much ignored the whole game as a vampire.
Yeah, I couldn't believe they didn't just come out and kill me the next day after Austin due to that. I just knew that getting to use Austin's ability was much more important than saving my life, particularly when all the powereds were already out.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
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Post by Grundbegriff »

Remus West wrote:Yeah, I couldn't believe they didn't just come out and kill me the next day after Austin due to that.
To me, it appeared as if most of the players gave up trying to deduce and decided instead to go with hunches and guesses.

Here's the most important principle I've learned about these games by playing them: reason trumps hunches eight times out of ten.

Sometimes a hunch pays off; more often than not, it has a blinding effect. Identifying evidence and drawing valid inferences from it always pays off, one way or another.
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