Which epic RPG?

philosophist · Post by **philosophist** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:02 pm

Now that I've burned out on WoW after only 3 weeks and too many FPSs (played Doom3, Hl2, NOLF2, and RTCW in the last 6 months), I pine for a good, old fashioned epic RPG. Before you select, here are otherwise potential candidates I have already played and enjoyed:

-Baldur's Gate
-Planescape: Torment
-Ultima V (about 15 years ago)
-Neverwinter Nights
-KOTR

From my selections, I have already played or tried the following:

-Fallout (tried but had trouble "getting into" it)
-BG2 (never made it out of chapter 2. lost save file and, consequently, never found the motivation to start from the beginning)
-Morrowind (all-time favorite; pre expansions or mods; played for 75+ hours before I lost interest and had to "power game" to finish)
-Ultima 7 (just a few minutes; the graphics hurt my eyes!)

Hereafter · Post by **Hereafter** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:11 pm

You should try to get Wizardry 8, it's one of my favorite. The world is open-ended plus the fact you get to play a whole party which is a plus for me.

I probably didn't help you at all though

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:44 pm

You know I still haven't really played U7 seriously. Need to whip out Exult and give it another go, it's an amazing game from what I've seen. I just think the combat system & interface are rather obtuse, plus all that whining about food.

I love love love U5, have a soft spot in my heart for it. I call it the greatest CRPG of the 8 bit era.

Of the games on your poll I would go with BG2. It is to a reasonable approximation the best RPG I have played and it's as epic as they come. But any number of the ones you chose would be great -- the Fallouts, Gothic 2, Morrowind, etc.

By the way, if you like old fashioned RPGs and haven't played the Avernum series by Jeff Vogel ( www.spidweb.com ) then you are missing out. Go download the demos. Avernum 2 is on my short list of best CRPGs ever made.

DiscoJason · Post by **DiscoJason** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:58 pm

I went with BG2 and the expansion. Now, I love me some Morrowind, but I just love the story in BG2 and I also enjoyed the combat much more. Morrowind of course beats out BG2 because of the open-endedness, but story and the strategy of party combat is more enjoyable for me. If I could vote for two, it would be BG2 and Morrowind, but because I can only pick one.....BG2.

philosophist · Post by **philosophist** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:00 pm

bluefugue wrote:
By the way, if you like old fashioned RPGs and haven't played the Avernum series by Jeff Vogel ( www.spidweb.com ) then you are missing out. Go download the demos. Avernum 2 is on my short list of best CRPGs ever made.

To be honest, last night I ran Ultima 7 using the exult engine and was horrified by the ugly graphics; it truly is amazing how far graphics technology has come in the last decade. But if the game is as great as I've heard, I (think I) am willing to overlook it.

philosophist · Post by **philosophist** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:16 pm

DiscoJason wrote:I went with BG2 and the expansion. Now, I love me some Morrowind, but I just love the story in BG2 and I also enjoyed the combat much more. Morrowind of course beats out BG2 because of the open-endedness, but story and the strategy of party combat is more enjoyable for me. If I could vote for two, it would be BG2 and Morrowind, but because I can only pick one.....BG2.

I really enjoyed BG2, the little bit of time I invested in it. It's such a daunting game, though, that I have been reluctant to start over.

Refresh my memory, if you would. Does BG2 feature NPC cycles/schedules? I have fond memories of that in Ultima 5 and am surprised that no other RPG (to my knowledge) has been able to duplicate it.

DiscoJason · Post by **DiscoJason** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:41 pm

philosophist wrote:
Refresh my memory, if you would. Does BG2 feature NPC cycles/schedules? I have fond memories of that in Ultima 5 and am surprised that no other RPG (to my knowledge) has been able to duplicate it.

No, BG2 doesn't have any NPC cycles or day/night schedules. Gothic and Gothic II do, though, and those ar egreta games as well which rank highly with me.

I look forward to Elder Scrolls IV with the open-endedness of Morrowind and the time schedules of Ultima 5.

philosophist · Post by **philosophist** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:52 pm

DiscoJason wrote:
I look forward to Elder Scrolls IV with the open-endedness of Morrowind and the time schedules of Ultima 5.

The lack of "dynamic" NPCs really limits Morrowind replayability, IMO.

Dramatist · Post by **Dramatist** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:57 pm

Gothic 2 all the way. That's one superb game.

philosophist · Post by **philosophist** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:59 pm

Dramatist wrote:Gothic 2 all the way. That's one superb game.

Should I play Gothic 1 first? I actually have a copy of Gothic II, but not Gothic 1...

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:07 pm

philosophist wrote:
bluefugue wrote:
By the way, if you like old fashioned RPGs and haven't played the Avernum series by Jeff Vogel ( www.spidweb.com ) then you are missing out. Go download the demos. Avernum 2 is on my short list of best CRPGs ever made.
To be honest, last night I ran Ultima 7 using the exult engine and was horrified by the ugly graphics; it truly is amazing how far graphics technology has come in the last decade. But if the game is as great as I've heard, I (think I) am willing to overlook it.

Funny, apart from the resolution I still think U7 has rather pretty graphics. The full screen "interfaceless" image still packs a wallop IMO.

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:09 pm

philosophist wrote:
DiscoJason wrote:
I look forward to Elder Scrolls IV with the open-endedness of Morrowind and the time schedules of Ultima 5.
The lack of "dynamic" NPCs really limits Morrowind replayability, IMO.

I too am very fond of dynamic NPC behavior, day/night cycles etc. BG2 doesn't have em but it's still a fantastic game IMO.

If you like that dynamic stuff then the Gothics are the way to go right now. It's not essential to play G1 before G2 but it doesn't hurt. G2 is the better game, however.

D.A.Lewis · Post by **D.A.Lewis** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:17 pm

Looks like you like the D&D rule set so BG2 looks to be your game. However I think the best game of the lot is easily Gothic 2. If you are an RPG fan than one day you are going to get around to playing it and then you will see what just what everyone is raving about.

McCrank · Post by **McCrank** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:33 pm

Ultima 7 is the best game on your list, followed by BG2

Dhruin · Post by **Dhruin** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:45 pm

It's hard to pick, to be honest. Fallout is my fave from the group: simply the best character development system ever and some true roleplaying possibilities. Gothic 2 offers an immersive world, arguably better than anything since U7. BG2 offers D&D nostalgia, a party with interaction and an epic setting.

Fallout then Gothic 2 for me.

D.A.Lewis · Post by **D.A.Lewis** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:46 pm

Just noticed you have Beyond Divinity. That game will get no votes. But replacing it would Divine Divinity would make for another good gaming option.

yossar · Post by **yossar** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:00 pm

Well, you've already put 75 hours into Morrowind so I won't vote for that. BG2 was really the only other one I liked on your list (haven't tried Arx Fatalis). Personally I'd pick Geneforge from the aforementioned spiderweb studios as the best RPG since Planescape: Torment, but with crappy graphics and static NPCs it's probably not for you.

The Mad Hatter · Post by **The Mad Hatter** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:42 pm

I was never a big fan of Morrowind; I finished it but the poorly developed NPCs and repetitive gameplay eventually bored me. Baldur's Gate 2 + expansion is more my style.

The Mad Hatter · Post by **The Mad Hatter** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:44 pm

D.A.Lewis wrote:Just noticed you have Beyond Divinity. That game will get no votes. But replacing it would Divine Divinity would make for another good gaming option.

It's a hack fest though, and if Diablo 2 isn't on his list of favourites I can't see him getting into the Divinity games.

philosophist · Post by **philosophist** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:59 pm

As an outsider, I don't quite understand the devotion to Gothic. According to Gamerankings, Gothic is the 31st highest rated RPG (of the "modern era") , while Gothic II is 42. Reputable review sites seem to either rate the games as decent or horrible (for instance, gamespy gave it a 2 out of 5). Yet, the hardcore games here and at rpgdot rave about them. Would someone explain this disparity?

Furthermore, Gothic 1 generally gets higher ratings, yet most people prefer Gothic II. Is the an example of a sequel being judged more critically?

Hetz · Post by **Hetz** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:52 pm

My Top 3

#1 Morrowind

#2 Baldurs Gate 2

#3 Ultima 7

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:45 pm

philosophist wrote:According to Gamerankings, Gothic is the 31st highest rated RPG (of the "modern era") , while Gothic II is 42.

Gamerankings.com is a useful tool, but not a reliable guide. Why doesn't it provide reliable guidance? Because there's no guarantee that the distinctive tastes and preferences of a particular person will happen to conform to the aggregated tastes of a large number of self-selecting gamerank voters. There's no such gamer as Joe Average.

This means that someone whose tastes are perfectly non-distinct and whose preferences are utterly mainstream will find Gamerankings.com to be a virtual kindred spirit. On the other hand, someone who really cares about a particular genre will have narrow, carefully-specified tastes in that genre.

It's a connoisseurial effect, though you're not allowed to say so unless you serve up Madeira for everyone. Rank-related data, league tables, and the like are useful only when handled prudently; they're subject to misinterpretation because they seem authoritative.

Reputable review sites seem to either rate the games as decent or horrible (for instance, gamespy gave it a 2 out of 5). Yet, the hardcore games here and at rpgdot rave about them. Would someone explain this disparity?

For the mythic Joe Average, Gothic 2 will be whatever the aggregated, vanilla tastes reflected in an impersonal, spinless Gameranking say it is. To someone who loves immersive, freeform RPGs and can detect the subtle points of design, adaptation, and innovation, Gothic 2 will be so much more. It seems reasonable to suppose that the "hardcore gamers here and at rpgdot" fit the second profile better than the first.

Jolor · Post by **Jolor** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:06 am

I'd narrow it down to Gothic2, Baldurs Gate 2, or Fallout.
Seeing as you've already tried the last two and liked Morrowin, why not give Gothic 2 a go?
Or, consider Icewind Dale 1 or 2. It's party based, still offers a good story compared to RPGs other than BG/Fallout/Planescape, but doesn't require the massive time commitment of a BG2.

Meghan · Post by **Meghan** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:31 am

I voted for Morrowind but I too think Ultima 7 is the best game there. Don't forget its expansion, Serpant Isle.

I tried running U7 a few years back but couldn't get it to work in XP. Has anyone else had trouble or sucess with it?

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:25 am

Meghan wrote:I voted for Morrowind but I too think Ultima 7 is the best game there. Don't forget its expansion, Serpant Isle.

I tried running U7 a few years back but couldn't get it to work in XP. Has anyone else had trouble or sucess with it?

I think I've run it on XP with Exult. Have you tried that?

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:30 am

philosophist wrote:As an outsider, I don't quite understand the devotion to Gothic. According to Gamerankings, Gothic is the 31st highest rated RPG (of the "modern era") , while Gothic II is 42. Reputable review sites seem to either rate the games as decent or horrible (for instance, gamespy gave it a 2 out of 5). Yet, the hardcore games here and at rpgdot rave about them. Would someone explain this disparity?

Furthermore, Gothic 1 generally gets higher ratings, yet most people prefer Gothic II. Is the an example of a sequel being judged more critically?

I really dunno. One thing about G2 is either the interface is a little better, or you are used to a weak interface from G1 if you played G1 first. Maybe both. I noticed G1's interface as a stumbling block (still liked the game) but in G2 it was no issue at all.

For me G2 just came together better. Bigger scope, a little more comfortable "standard medieval" setting, etc. I had a blast with it whereas my feelings for G1 were a bit more reserved.

Still, Gothic 1 gave me a couple of wonderful moments. My favorite is when I summoned about 2 dozen skeleton warriors to help me in the boss battle. Seeing them all standing around me, ready for action, is one of my great memories in gaming -- though I don't know if they were actually that useful in combat.

But Philo you have already ID'd yourself as a fan of NPC scheduling and day/night cycles and the like. Fact is, the Gothics are pretty much the only current games to have that stuff and it makes a difference. Where the NPCs in Morrowind are mainly information kiosks, the ones in the Gothics at least create the semblance of a living world. Here's hoping Oblivion will carry the torch further -- its proposed dynamic AI (as opposed to rote scheduling) could be the first real step forward in this area since, gosh, Ultima V 16 years ago. At least that I can think of.

Meghan · Post by **Meghan** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:36 pm

No I haven't tried Exult - I'll give it a whirl!

thanks!

Caine · Post by **Caine** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:16 pm

ultima 7 and serpent isle for me have such a sense of epicness that few other games come close. you have a huge world to discover and tons of little things to find and do. there are murders to solve, huge dragons to slay, a big conspiracy to unravel and a lot of dungeons to go explore. the one part of the whole game that drags is the money and food management, but ultima 7 is still worth playing through.

it really makes the travesties of u8 and u9 much harder to bear. i had great hopes for u9 and would have preferred the 3/4ths perspective they originally planned instead of the 3d world. plus, they destroyed much of the world and wrecked the open-ness and free exploration that made u7/si so much fun.

philosophist · Post by **philosophist** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:46 pm

Caine wrote: it really makes the travesties of u8 and u9 much harder to bear. i had great hopes for u9 and would have preferred the 3/4ths perspective they originally planned instead of the 3d world. plus, they destroyed much of the world and wrecked the open-ness and free exploration that made u7/si so much fun.

How is U9 on modern hardware and, presumably, patched?

philosophist · Post by **philosophist** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:56 pm

Well, I'm going to go against the respected advice of OO and choose U7. I actually considered U6 instead, but, after a quick gander, I decided that U7 was as primitive as I could tolerate in a post-NWN isometric RPG landscape (as an aside, I think my first-person RPG tolerance is no older than Wiz 8; Ultima Underworld and Daggerfall may be great games, but the graphics are horrible.

Fortunately, while RPG (along with FPS) is my favorite genre, I have taken many length hiatuses from gaming over the years, thus leaving me with a powerhouse backlog including:

Ultima VII complete
BG2 +expansion
Fallout
Fallout 2
Arcanum
Divine Divinity
Gothic
Gothic 2
Arx Fatalis
Wizardry 8
Temple of Elemental Evil
NWN expansions
MW expansions

Of course, that doesn't include any new RPGs. Specifically, I will purchase Oblivion the day it comes out. And, if somebody would develop a Planescape:Torment sequel....

Just for the record (not that anyone truly cares), these are the RPGs I have completed (or played significantly) in approx. order of preference:

-MW
-P:T
-Ultima V
-Pool of Radiance (gold box)
-BG
-KOTR
-Daggerfall
-NWN
-Eye of the Beholder
-Bard's Tale
-Diablo
-Diablo 2

philosophist · Post by **philosophist** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:57 pm

Caine wrote:ultima 7 and serpent isle for me have such a sense of epicness that few other games come close. you have a huge world to discover and tons of little things to find and do. there are murders to solve, huge dragons to slay, a big conspiracy to unravel and a lot of dungeons to go explore. the one part of the whole game that drags is the money and food management, but ultima 7 is still worth playing through.

Since my backlog is so long, I'm rather concerned about devoting too much time to a single game. Less than 75 hours is okay, but beyond that, from my experience, I tend to lose interest. How long will it take to finish the main quest and some of the side quests in Black Gate? What about Serpent Isle?

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:02 pm

In terms of "epic", IMHO, the only title there that fits is Baldur's Gate 2 -- especially considering you've already played the original.

With that, if you're a fan of the Ultima titles, you really owe it to yourself to get into Ultima IX. Yeah, there are going to be some folks that will come in here and bitch about it - but I enjoyed it (post patch and hardware upgrade).

Being able to see the sunrise over Minoc was simply amazing. I grew up playing Ultima III on a Commodore 64, so actually *seeing* these places was a real treat.

Was Ultima IX epic? No, I don't think so, but if you're a fan of the series (III-VI in particular) you owe it to yourself to try it.

philosophist · Post by **philosophist** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:05 pm

Hereafter wrote:You should try to get Wizardry 8, it's one of my favorite. The world is open-ended plus the fact you get to play a whole party which is a plus for me.

I probably didn't help you at all though

Is it old-school dungeon crawl? I prefer story-driven RPGs.

Kael · Post by **Kael** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:35 pm

philosophist wrote:
Hereafter wrote:You should try to get Wizardry 8, it's one of my favorite. The world is open-ended plus the fact you get to play a whole party which is a plus for me.

I probably didn't help you at all though
Is it old-school dungeon crawl? I prefer story-driven RPGs.

Do you have a PlayStation or PS2? If you have a Playstation try Final Fantasy 9. If you have a PS2 try Final Fantasy X. Just great games if your a fan of story driven RPG'ing.

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:15 pm

Being able to see the sunrise over Minoc was simply amazing. I grew up playing Ultima III on a Commodore 64, so actually *seeing* these places was a real treat.

Except those places didn't come into being until Ultima IV.

Point taken, however. Playing Ultima 3 on a C64, by the way, is my all time greatest gaming experience.