[WW] Crimson Moon III - Game ends in a Draw?

[Zurai]

If it was unclear, what I meant was that both the Wolf Coroner and the Real Coroner would be able to give the correct profession of Remus West. The Wolf Coroner by process of elimination, the real coroner because he scanned him.

Ah. I see.

[Zurai]

Yeah, as I read back, it's pretty easy to prove that Remus is what I said he is.

You'll have to be slippery to get outta the noose here, laddie.

Oh, please enlighten us, O great wolf-sage.

[triggercut]

BTW, I was pouring some milk on my cornflakes and saw Mr. Bubbles' picture on the carton!

I think this discussion is stalled for the minute for me until I hear more from him and pr0ner.

I'd also like to see Newcastle respond to them and Zurai and I, and for there to be some give and take here. I think the village can sort out which of us is the real coroner and which is the last wolf. Shouldn't be too tough (but then again, I have more info, so that's my bias talking.)

[Zurai]

I think this discussion is stalled for the minute for me until I hear more from him and pr0ner.

Well get ready for a long wait, then. I'm the second most active poster left in the game, and twice you've ridiculed me for being almost completely absent and never contributing anything of importance.

[triggercut]

Well get ready for a long wait, then. I'm the second most active poster left in the game, and twice you've ridiculed me for being almost completely absent and never contributing anything of importance.

Man. You're tricky, I'll give you that! To trot out the football references, you're half Gale Sayers slipping in and out of grasp, and the other half you're like Dan Marino or Dan Fouts (or Jimmy Hart, for us oldtimers) picking targets in posts and hitting 'em with lasers.

Anyway, if I was "attacking" you, I apologize. Expect a little vehemence when you attempt to spoof the role of a villager. I was rather blindsided by it. That said, I meant to show that your absence in the thread during the Austin discussions contrasted versus my participation should be considered by my fellow villagers in rooting out the wolf between you and I.

[Zurai]

Anyway, if I was "attacking" you, I apologize. Expect a little vehemence when you attempt to spoof the role of a villager. I was rather blindsided by it. That said, I meant to show that your absence in the thread during the Austin discussions contrasted versus my participation should be considered by my fellow villagers in rooting out the wolf between you and I.

Oh, come off it. You've been attacking me since day 1, long before I outed myself.

EDIT: By "attacking" I don't neccesarily mean personal attacks, although there have been some of those, but rather you've been after the village to lynch me from the very start of the game.

[triggercut]

Anyway, if I was "attacking" you, I apologize. Expect a little vehemence when you attempt to spoof the role of a villager. I was rather blindsided by it. That said, I meant to show that your absence in the thread during the Austin discussions contrasted versus my participation should be considered by my fellow villagers in rooting out the wolf between you and I.

Oh, come off it. You've been attacking me since day 1, long before I outed myself.

EDIT: By "attacking" I don't neccesarily mean personal attacks, although there have been some of those, but rather you've been after the village to lynch me from the very start of the game.

I'm not the only one who saw your vote pulloff of Silky on day 1 as suspicious.

[Zurai]

I'm not the only one who saw your vote pulloff of Silky on day 1 as suspicious.

Amazing! I pulled the last vote off someone who had absolutely ZERO chance of being lynched! I MUST be a wolf! Call the Police! Get the Headsman! We have a lynching to attend!

I have gone over my reasons for that over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. Amazingly, you're the only one who seems to vehemently object to them. Actually, everyone who was starting to see things my way seems to be dieing all of a sudden...

[Zurai]

Oh, and as for my absence during the Austin lynching:

Considering I was the primary lynch target before Austin (check it, you voted for me as the first vote of the day, and later on attempted to swing the vote from Austin to me), and I had literally one piece of semi-useless information for the village at that point, what exactly would you have proposed I should have done? Continued arguing with you, Mr. "By ironclad reasoning (except I later admitted it wasn't nearly so ironclad)"? Come out as the Coroner on day 2 with no information of use to the village so I can get eaten at night?

I did the best thing for the village: I hid. I didn't vote for Austin because, quite frankly, I didn't need to. You were doing a fine enough job of getting him hung. So I bided my time until I could get more information for the village - after all, with how aggressive you've been the whole game towards me, it wasn't likely the wolves would waste time killing me unless they knew my power. They could just wait for the village to lynch me. Unfortunately, I waited just a smidge too long (and read the thread just a smidge too fast, missing Mr. Bubbles' vote) and wasn't able to step in before poor, misguided Remus got lynched.

You got the village a wolf because the vote on me had no traction. Great for us. It also somehow got you elected to the offices of Judge, Jury, and Executioner, which isn't so hot for us. Now you've managed to narrow the field down to a do-or-die for the village. I must congratulate you on your playing.

[Zurai]

I'd also like to point out to the village that no matter what trig's role is, he HAS lied to the village. If you believe me that I am the Coroner - then I have not.

Trig has repeatedly made the claim that he is "just an innocent villager with no special powers at all".

I never once claimed to be a mere ordinary villager. I only ever said that I was not a wolf, and that lynching me would be a mistake for the village.

I don't like lieing to my allies, even to (potentially) save my own life. So, I didn't.

[Zurai]

My grammar continues to be horrible. I apologize to the village for the neccesity of slogging through my posts. If anyone has a question about what the hell I'm trying to say in some of those tortured sentences, just ask, I'll clarify.

[triggercut]

I'd also like to point out to the village that no matter what trig's role is, he HAS lied to the village. If you believe me that I am the Coroner - then I have not.

Trig has repeatedly made the claim that he is "just an innocent villager with no special powers at all".

I never once claimed to be a mere ordinary villager. I only ever said that I was not a wolf, and that lynching me would be a mistake for the village.

I don't like lieing to my allies, even to (potentially) save my own life. So, I didn't.

That piece of info wasn't meant for my allies in the village. I wasn't lying to them. I was lying to the wolves. I'm sorry if it upset you.

[Zurai]

That piece of info wasn't meant for my allies in the village. I wasn't lying to them. I was lying to the wolves. I'm sorry if it upset you.

If you can lie once to the village, you can lie more times. I haven't lied even that once - I never claimed to be anything except "not a wolf" and "a mistake to lynch" until I came out as the Coroner.

[Zurai]

And you still havn't given me a real explanation for why I would have come forward as the Coroner at the time I did if I was a wolf. You said "because you were next on the chopping block" - but I wasn't. All three of the "unqualified villagers" (at that points) - myself, Newcastle, and Bubbles - were bandied about equally to be lynched. If I'm the final wolf, as you claim, why on EARTH would I draw attention to myself even further by coming out as the Coroner when I couldn't be sure the Coroner wasn't still alive? That's an incredibly risky maneuver with limited payoff.

[triggercut]

Zurai-- I think this post:

I don't intend to change my vote except under one of two circumstances:

1) Signifigant new information comes out that points to a very likely wolf.
2) The vote stalls at 5 votes for one person to hang for a signifigant amount of time.

....has cause the most friction between us. Lassr was sitting at 5 votes for less than an hour when you pulled your vote from Silky. I'd submit that "Day 1" in the village had lasted over a weekend and into a Wednesday. So I suppose what I'd like you to explain to me (and let me apologize in advance, because I know you've explained this stuff before; I missed it or read it wrong, or something, but it didn't register the way it should've--and that's bad on me, not you) this action of yours. See, to me, you pulling your vote off of Silky because it was a "wasted vote" doesn't seem to have fallen into either of your 2 criteria for changing a vote. Again, I admit, my inability to see that is all on me. I'm not understanding it, and I'm sure there's a good reason why it happened that I just didn't consider.

Also, for the record? One more thought on this for right now. I'm a suspicious sort (having one of the enemy team attempt to spoof my role will do that to a fellow, as I'm sure you can understand, eh what?) but when I read your two criteria there, they sure do seem to be criteria that a possible wolf might throw out there in advance of placing the "hanging vote" on an innocent. For a suspicious type such as myself, I look at that post (and I looked at it this way from the start, honestly, which is just me jumping to conclusions again! Bad form, I know, as there's a perfectly logical and innocent reason and method behind that post I refer to above, I'm sure) and think that had Unagi not serendipitously stepped in with the hanging vote on Lassr, that this particular post of yours could be referred to later if you had had to be the one to put Lassr's neck in the noose. I know that's not why you did that, of course; it's just me being overly suspicious of you. I point all this out though in case you wanted to address any of that, though.

[Zurai]

First, I want to personally thank you for being calm, collected, and reasonable with this post. Regardless of who's lieing and who's on which side, this is a game, and your aggressiveness has given me a lot of mental wear and tear. I'm not intending that as a criticism, btw - just saying that I appreciate that you're cooling things off a little in something that is supposed to be a fun diversion from life.

Now, on to your actual post.

Zurai-- I think this post:

I don't intend to change my vote except under one of two circumstances:

1) Signifigant new information comes out that points to a very likely wolf.
2) The vote stalls at 5 votes for one person to hang for a signifigant amount of time.

....has cause the most friction between us. Lassr was sitting at 5 votes for less than an hour when you pulled your vote from Silky. I'd submit that "Day 1" in the village had lasted over a weekend and into a Wednesday. So I suppose what I'd like you to explain to me (and let me apologize in advance, because I know you've explained this stuff before; I missed it or read it wrong, or something, but it didn't register the way it should've--and that's bad on me, not you) this action of yours. See, to me, you pulling your vote off of Silky because it was a "wasted vote" doesn't seem to have fallen into either of your 2 criteria for changing a vote. Again, I admit, my inability to see that is all on me. I'm not understanding it, and I'm sure there's a good reason why it happened that I just didn't consider.

I think I see where the confusion and contention lies, now that someone took the time to explain it to me in a more verbose way.

I said "I will not change my vote". You (and everyone else, apparantly) took that to mean "My vote will remain etched in stone exactly where it is". That is, admittedly, a reasonable conclusion, due to poor wording on my part. Even worse, I see that I kept that same wording on my clarification a little later in the thread.

I apologize.

If you'll read the text preceding the clarified wording, I think what I'm about to say will be a little more grounded to you. I'll quote it again for you just to prevent you having to dig back through the thread again:

I don't see any reason to change my vote from the person I think is most likely to be a wolf when changing my vote won't end the current day. Perhaps you can explain why you think changing a person's vote from the person they think is most likely to be a wolf to a person they don't think is likely to be a wolf except under extreme circumstances (ie, the game just will not continue without that vote being changed) is a good idea?

I wasn't saying that I wouldn't withdraw a vote and leave my vote hanging without there being some game mechanics reason - I was saying that I wouldn't withdraw a vote from someone I believed might be a wolf and then place it on someone I believed probably was not a wolf. Except under the circumstances I outlined, of course.

During the day 1 deadlock, I had 4 choices:

1. Leave my vote on Silky and let the deadlock sort itself out.
2. Withdraw my vote from Silky (who at the time I most suspected of being a wolf - though please remember I said it was only the slightest of suspicions) and leave it hanging.
3. Withdraw my vote from Silky and place it on Austin, putting him to 5 votes. At the time there was no evidence to support Austin being a wolf.
4. Withdraw my vote from Silky and place it on Lassr, putting him at anywhere from 4-6 votes (depending on when I voted). Again, there was no evidence of Lassr being a wolf.

Of course, it being day 1, there wasn't going to be much evidence of ANYONE being a wolf. I accept that. Last game was a fluke (The village managed to find both wolves with the first two lynchings ). That said, there really was no reasons being presented for lynching either Austin or Lassr on day 1. The Austin vote was started "because he makes lame jokes" and the Lassr vote started for similarly silly reasons.

Silky even admitted he intentionally rocked the boat on day 1, a few pages back in the thread. I voted there because he seemed the most suspicious (which, for the record, was about a 2.1 on a scale of 1-10).

I finally withdrew my vote from him because it was very, very obvious that no one was going to vote for him. It was going to be either Austin or Lassr. I withdrew once Lassr hit 5 and posted that "I guess I'll have to end this" if it wasn't already over. I regret that, because you're absolutely right - it practically SCREAMS "I'm a wolf!!". Bleh. Note to self: don't be so dramatic in the future.

I gave it time because, frankly, it'd be even MORE "wolfish" (enough so that I realized it at the time) to immediately jump on as the 6th vote. In all actuality, if the vote had been 5-5 Austin-Lassr when I got settled in back home, I'd have flipped a coin for who to vote for to end the stalemate.

It turned out that Unagi cast the final vote before I'd even left work, and I'm wondering if that ended up making me even MORE suspicious. Yeesh.

Anyway, that was what I was trying to get across, and constantly failing to get across.

Also, for the record? One more thought on this for right now. I'm a suspicious sort (having one of the enemy team attempt to spoof my role will do that to a fellow, as I'm sure you can understand, eh what?) but when I read your two criteria there, they sure do seem to be criteria that a possible wolf might throw out there in advance of placing the "hanging vote" on an innocent. For a suspicious type such as myself, I look at that post (and I looked at it this way from the start, honestly, which is just me jumping to conclusions again! Bad form, I know, as there's a perfectly logical and innocent reason and method behind that post I refer to above, I'm sure) and think that had Unagi not serendipitously stepped in with the hanging vote on Lassr, that this particular post of yours could be referred to later if you had had to be the one to put Lassr's neck in the noose. I know that's not why you did that, of course; it's just me being overly suspicious of you. I point all this out though in case you wanted to address any of that, though.

Yeah, I realize it's kinda suspicious. I think that, in general, my play in past games will bear out those rules though. I didn't make them up for this game.

Honestly, thinking back to past games, I'm continually amazed when I'm not lynched as a matter of course on the first day. My first three or four games, I was a bad guy. I didn't even get a chance to play villager for a long, long time, so I'm not as experienced at it.

On top of that, this is the first game where I have EVER been a village special, so I have ZERO firsthand experience there, too.

Sucks to be me.

[triggercut]

And you still havn't given me a real explanation for why I would have come forward as the Coroner at the time I did if I was a wolf. You said "because you were next on the chopping block" - but I wasn't. All three of the "unqualified villagers" (at that points) - myself, Newcastle, and Bubbles - were bandied about equally to be lynched. If I'm the final wolf, as you claim, why on EARTH would I draw attention to myself even further by coming out as the Coroner when I couldn't be sure the Coroner wasn't still alive? That's an incredibly risky maneuver with limited payoff.

You are due that explanation, kind sir.

On at least two occasions I mentioned you as the necessary day 4 lynch after Remus, prioritizing my suspicions of you (which I'm sure were ill-founded, I'm just saying) by placing you first in line. If you had seen me driving the bus on Austin and Remus's respective lynchings, you had to have been concerned as a wolf.

Remus was dead for the lynch due to irretractable votes. Information from the coroner at that point in the game wasn't going to change the Day 3 outcome in any significant manner. The innocent village coroner would've rightly played it by allowing Remus to swing, going to the night phase for the killing of one of our "trusted" (Silky or pr0ner) and then announcing the Remus result the next morning as coroner. There wasn't *that* much difference between you, Newcastle, and Bubbles...announcing you were the coroner on the morning of Day 4 with a scan of Remus would've spared you the noose that night and done the village a great deal of good.

Now I will offer the village my reasoning behind staying quiet, which is what I had planned to do on Day 3. For starters, Remus was bound for the gallows. He knew it, I knew it, every villager seemed to know it. As the coroner with scans of Lassr and Austin, I had no information to make Remus seem any more or less guilty than the information I'd already offered in the thread. I figured the wolves had to kill Silky or pr0ner, and as a "trusted innocent" I could fly under the radar one more night and do some good by reporting my scans in full on Day 4. (At this point I'll mention that I'd picked Day 4 as my coming out day almost from the time I worked out that Austin was a likely wolf. I figured we'd get to day 4 with either 1 or 2 remaining wolves. If it was one left, my services weren't of all that much use anymore anyway, as the odds would be stacked heavily in the favor of the village to get our last wolf; if we had 2 left, my services are explicitly unnecessary, because we'd know by whether the game continued or ended whether we'd got a wolf or not.) When Zurai claimed my role, I figured I'd better jump out right away, or risk the village having a day to "accept" him, and make it ten times tougher to guide him to the gallows. I'd seen from firsthand experience as a vampire in the "Bloodsucking Freaks Redux" game, that when Vampire Austin spoofed the role of seer there, he was met with initial skepticism, and that doubt disappeared after the first day.

[pr0ner]

Don't know what to do, don't know what to do.

This I know: Zurai or Triggercut are wolves.

If Zurai is right, and he's the coroner, killing Zurai ends the game in the wolves favor.

If Triggercut is right, and he's the coroner, killing him at least gives us another chance.

We know Austin was wolf.

Remus we're 50-50 on.

If Zurai is right, the final two wolves are Triggercut and one of Newcastle and Mr. Bubbles (I'd lean Bubbles in this case, since he's so damn quiet).

If Triggercut is right, Zurai is the final wolf and it's game over.

Someone gets tested tonight. And since the game is guaranteed to go on if we go after Triggercut, I'm leaning that way just to be safe.

But I really don't know right now.

[triggercut]

Hey! pr0ner's here!

I appreciate the analysis there.

There's one more thing that a dead villager posted in this game which I think makes a good case for my truthfulness, but I don't want to prejudice it too much against Zurai, so I want to wait to see if Mr. Bubbles has any analysis to give maybe tomorrow morning.

Sleep on it, I know I'm about to!

[pr0ner]

By the way, I STILL can't wrap my head around why Zurai would come out as "coroner" when he did.

Such a strange play.

[Zurai]

You are due that explanation, kind sir.

Thank you for the very thorough explanation. I see more of where you're coming from now (and I see some of your tricks to steal for future games ).

Don't know what to do, don't know what to do.

Thanks also to you, for being willing to look at both sides of the equation. I was honestly worried, with how vehement you have been in support of trig. All I ask is that, when you place your vote, you place it with full thought of the consequences.



Now we need to hear from Mr. Bubbles, who hasn't posted in the last 2 real life days.

[Zurai]

By the way, I STILL can't wrap my head around why Zurai would come out as "coroner" when he did.

Such a strange play.

In my defence, I thought there were only 3 votes on Remus when I came out, and the whole village had called for the Coroner to step forward, and even trig had said to step forward if my information gave insight on tru1cy or grund.

[triggercut]

Now we need to hear from Mr. Bubbles, who hasn't posted in the last 2 real life days.

Game aside, that's a little concerning, right?

Hope he is ok.

[Zurai]

Sleep on it, I know I'm about to!

And finally, I second this. It's almost 3 AM here and I'm going to suffer for it tomorrow.

[Zurai]

Now we need to hear from Mr. Bubbles, who hasn't posted in the last 2 real life days.

Game aside, that's a little concerning, right?

Hope he is ok.

I wouldn't be too worried about it. He's always been a sporadic poster.

He did say life has been rough for him recently, though, so I'll join you in the hoping.

[triggercut]

Paging Dr. Bubbles to the white courtesy phone!

[Austin]

Yeah, he hasn't been on at all since the 30th. While he does come and go a bit, not normally for this long at a time.

[triggercut]

I'd like to proceed with the game, but I'm not sure it's possible for the time being.

[Austin]

I agree. I think the game should hold until we know that Bubbles is okay and able to get online. More so for the knowledge that he's A-OK than for the sake of the game though.

[Lassr]

[Remus West]

Anyone know how to contact Bubbles in real life to be sure he is o.k.?

[Unagi]

Interesting observation Austin.
Can you tell when people have logged in?

[triggercut]

Interesting observation Austin.
Can you tell when people have logged in?

I don't think so, but you can go by last post. Bubbles was last here on the 30th.

[Austin]

Interesting observation Austin.
Can you tell when people have logged in?

I don't think so, but you can go by last post. Bubbles was last here on the 30th.

Yeah I just looked at his profile and checked last posts.

[Unagi]

OK, just making sure I wasn't missing the "Last Active On: " field somewhere on his profile page.

I hope he is OK. I'm a little worried about him now too.

Have you guys ever started a WW game that you couldn't finish for one reason or another?

[Lassr]

OK, just making sure I wasn't missing the "Last Active On: " field somewhere on his profile page.

I hope he is OK. I'm a little worried about him now too.

Have you guys ever started a WW game that you couldn't finish for one reason or another?

I know some games have had players replaced that were going away for a while but I'm unaware of one where someone just stopped showing up to the forum.

[Newcastle]

i am all for the game going on pause until bubbles gets back. Hope he is safe and sound wherever he is and all is well.

[Chaosraven]

There is no time limit established in this game for voting, only irrevocable Majority.

[Zurai]

Paging Mr. Bubbles... Mr. Bubbles to the front desk, please. Your presence is requested.

[Austin]

Paging Mr. Bubbles... Mr. Bubbles to the front desk, please. Your presence is requested.

He hasn't picked up his PM and if he has notification on he'd have received it on email. Unfortunately he has emails turned off and we have taken a stance of not emailing people who don't wish to be emailed, so a PM notification is the closest thing to an email we can get to him right now. I'm hoping that he is away for a week or so or has lost internet connection for a while but that he's okay for the most part.