[TV] Battlestar Galactica 2-4-05 (Spoilers)

[Odin]

I've said it before, but woo hoo!

Not quite as intensely emotional as the first half, but there was about 10 minutes or so where they made the decision to abandon Starbuck and where she reappeared in the raider that was really powerful stuff.

And in yet another homage to the original series, I give you "wing waggling."

Now where the hell did Boomer go?

Sith

[Daehawk]

Ok Ill try my best to post without any future spoilers. Ill stick to this show. And BTW did you notice iw as completely wrong on the Starbuck being dragged by a Cylon spoiler that caused such a uproar last week? I guess we all collectively forgot that Cyclon raider ships are thier own living things.

I was really sore at the way they had the Adama boys acting and was glad when the Prez reamed them out for it. I could'nt believe Adama was so gung ho to save her after what she told him last week.

That Star - Buck on the wings was cool. Caught me completely off guard. i kept wondering what she'd do to keep from getting shot.

You notice just how she owned Apollo with that dogfight? She was in a unknown ship without true controls yet she kicked his ass. I thought he was better than that.

Im completely lost on the Caprica Boomer and Helo story line. I dont understand a damn thing about what is going on or why. Seems they could just leave that out of the show and I would'nt miss it.

I got a chuckle out of Starbuck when she opened the ship and says something like "oh, you fly you" and then ripped the brain out "this must be your brain..good thing I brought my own"

Last thing..I dont get how easily he relieved Col Tigh. He was only stating what a good XO should and he gets canned. Booooo.

[Zaxxon]

Ok Ill try my best to post without any future spoilers. Ill stick to this show. And BTW did you notice iw as completely wrong on the Starbuck being dragged by a Cylon spoiler that caused such a uproar last week? I guess we all collectively forgot that Cyclon raider ships are thier own living things.

It's tough to collectively forget what you don't yet know.

Another excellent episode. Methinks this will be a release-day DVD set for me, unless things go downhill quickly. Good stuff.

[Odin]

Ok Ill try my best to post without any future spoilers. Ill stick to this show. And BTW did you notice iw as completely wrong on the Starbuck being dragged by a Cylon spoiler that caused such a uproar last week? I guess we all collectively forgot that Cyclon raider ships are thier own living things.

Ahem. WE didn't forget anything -

I had assumed that the Cylon raiders were "living" ships, with no humanoid robots on-board.

however we didn't actually KNOW that for a fact until this episode.

I was really sore at the way they had the Adama boys acting and was glad when the Prez reamed them out for it. I could'nt believe Adama was so gung ho to save her after what she told him last week.

I think that was the point, really. He loved her as a daughter, and he suspected that it was their fight that had caused her to go off and fight eight Cylons by herself, death-wish style. He couldn't live with that on his conscience any more than he could leave one of his own kids behind to die when there was a chance of rescue.

That Star - Buck on the wings was cool. Caught me completely off guard. i kept wondering what she'd do to keep from getting shot.

My least-favorite part, actually. When the heck did she do that? When she was desperate for air and trying to figure out how the inside of the ship worked? Or did she put her air-less helmet back on and run outside with some tape? It just didn't seem to fit for me, but not enough to distract me from the otherwise superior nature of the episode.

You notice just how she owned Apollo with that dogfight? She was in a unknown ship without true controls yet she kicked his ass. I thought he was better than that.

We don't actually have any evidence that Apollo's an exceptional pilot at all. We don't know much about his history at all.

Im completely lost on the Caprica Boomer and Helo story line. I dont understand a damn thing about what is going on or why. Seems they could just leave that out of the show and I would'nt miss it.

I wouldn't say I'm confused by it, but it does seem to be having a hard time getting started toward anything really significant. I THINK it's meant to give us insight into the Cylons and their grand plans (based on how they manipulate Helo) and it also gives us a change of scenery from the ships.

I got a chuckle out of Starbuck when she opened the ship and says something like "oh, you fly you" and then ripped the brain out "this must be your brain..good thing I brought my own"

Last thing..I dont get how easily he relieved Col Tigh. He was only stating what a good XO should and he gets canned. Booooo.

I think this reflected two points. The first is just how seriously off the deep end Adama was in this episode. The second is that even the best XO only gets to push his captain so far in public. Tigh was trying to be diplomatic, but he was definitely pushing the limits of how much he could challenge the commander when they're on the bridge. In any case, it was definitely a surprise, and to follow it up with the Tigh/Roslyn "alliance" adds an interesting dynamic.

Nice post, Daehawk! Very spoiler-conscious

Also, for anyone who needs to get caught up (or doesn't have them saved on their TiVo like me ), they're replaying all the episodes so far on Sunday.

Sith

[Freezer-TPF-]

My least-favorite part, actually. When the heck did she do that? When she was desperate for air and trying to figure out how the inside of the ship worked? Or did she put her air-less helmet back on and run outside with some tape? It just didn't seem to fit for me, but not enough to distract me from the otherwise superior nature of the episode.

And that must have been one bigass roll of tape. But it was rather funny. That whole scenario really took the suspension of disbelief to a whole new level.

I'm wondering what they will be able to learn from the Raider.

The Helo sideplot is intriguing, though I'd like to see them move that along. I am thinking they are testing him somehow, like their own little lab rat. The toaster/Cylon encounter was a nice little joke.

[Odin]

The toaster/Cylon encounter was a nice little joke.

[Slaps forehead] Gah! I totally missed that!

[Daehawk]

Hehe..I liked how the one cyclon just shoved the shot one aside liek a lump of metal..no feelingwhatsoever for his buddy. If those toasters were the first ones that rebelled im wondering if they have some type of leader one thats as old as them cause they dont seem to have much in the AI sector of thier heads.

Oh and the raider ships. Why have organic stuff at all in there?..Why not 100% machine. Also why make them use oxygen..they musta figured if they got captured like that they should use something the humans would'nt be able to use to thier advantage.

[Odin]

Good questions.

They've answered the question about the original Cylons who rebelled, somewhat - in the pilot there was a Cylon Centurion on display in the Galactic'a museum, along with a model of a Base Star - they were the props from the original 70's Battlestar Galactica. The models we're seeing now are more advanced - "evolved" if you will.

Clearly the living ships are something new - the Viper pilots in the pilot remarked on how small the cockpit area was - that there was "nobody flying those things." Starbuck was clearly somewhat surprised, too, though not overly. Evidently the Cylons are experimenting with life beyond creating the 12 human-looking models. Possibly related to the motif of "are you alive?" which is the question #6 asked first to Boxey's father on the space station, then later to Helo on Caprica, and which Starbuck asked to the downed Cylon Raider when she popped the hatch and saw the flesh within.

Sith

Sith

[naednek]

Not my favorite ep, too much disbelief.

I'm sure Buck's coat or whatever she used to plug that hole would have 1: kept it plugged while entering space, let alone high altitude,
2: had it completely sealed so that she could breath.

A little to corny for my tastes, kind of insulted my intelligence (which is not hard to do )

However, I really like this series. I never really liked the original, mainly because I was couldn't sit still to watch it. I was a kid and wanted to go play with my friends.

[naednek]

Also, for anyone who needs to get caught up (or doesn't have them saved on their TiVo like me ), they're replaying all the episodes so far on Sunday.

Sith

Like who's going to watch that on Superbowl SundaY?

oh ya, Lee

[tiny ogre]

I liked Starbuck all the way back in the miniseries, but I know a lot of people have been put off by her. Keeping that in mind, I think this episode, melodramatic and manipulative(*) as it is, would be a sort of turning point for people who are on the fence. So what do you think of her now? Have you warmed up to her or did this put off even more?

(*)which doesn't mean I didn't like it, I actually love it. But it isn't a subtle episode by any means

[Grifman]

Not my favorite ep, too much disbelief.

I'm sure Buck's coat or whatever she used to plug that hole would have 1: kept it plugged while entering space, let alone high altitude,
2: had it completely sealed so that she could breath.

A little to corny for my tastes, kind of insulted my intelligence (which is not hard to do )

Actually, hate to say it, this kind of ruined this ep for me. Weakest ep by far She's got a hole bigger than my fist in the cockpit and she's flies into the vaccum of space. Sorry, don't buy it. For a decent sci-fi show, this is a no no.

And to be honest, I really don't buy Adama's behavior. I just don't see him risking the fleet to save this one pilot, even if it was Starbuck. I know the man isn't perfect, I can see him stretching their time a bit, but using almost half their reserve fuel to hunt for her. And, btw, where are they going to get more fuel? That seems to be a flaw. The Vipers need to use some sort of super battery pack to recharge from the Galactica's reactors or something.

Which is leading to another thing. They've introduced a need for water. And fuel. Well, what about food? They can't bring this realistic stuff in and not deal with it in some way.

[tiny ogre]

Which is leading to another thing. They've introduced a need for water. And fuel.

(minor) FUTURE SPOILER WARNING(s)...
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They will deal with fuel before the season is out.

Food they've already mentioned (Episode 2 I think) but won't really deal with.
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SPOLIERS OVER

[raydude]

On the subject of the patch I wonder if the pilots carry some sort of sealant in their survival gear. The kind of stuff for sealing up those kinds of holes. Yeah it sounds far-fetched but it is at least futuristic. It would certainly be within the same tech lines as that instant oxygen sensor stick that Starbuck had.

I mean really, they should have at least something that's sci-fi techy other than the ships and the vipers.

[raydude]

Hehe..I liked how the one cyclon just shoved the shot one aside liek a lump of metal..no feelingwhatsoever for his buddy. If those toasters were the first ones that rebelled im wondering if they have some type of leader one thats as old as them cause they dont seem to have much in the AI sector of thier heads.

I wonder if the different Cylon models have different priorities programmed into their AI? Perhaps the metallic cylon models are programmed for efficiency in detection, pursuit, and elimination. Most likely the 2nd cylon calculated that the hits to the head and body rendered the 1st cylon's targetting and pursuit capabilities less than optimal, possibly even non-functional.

Thus, shove the disabled cylon aside for now while you prosecute the target, then get the disabled cylon to repair or recyling .

[Odin]

Actually, hate to say it, this kind of ruined this ep for me. Weakest ep by far She's got a hole bigger than my fist in the cockpit and she's flies into the vaccum of space. Sorry, don't buy it. For a decent sci-fi show, this is a no no.

Actually, space isn't a big deal - parts of the Apollo craft were extremely thin and it WAS a spacesuit she crammed in there. Since that same suit had already survived the heat of a high-altitude reentry, it's a reasonably good material to use. Sure it would leak (probably a lot), but the force of the air inside the craft trying to get out would only serve to help jam the hole shut more firmly.

I'm only sort of defending it - it was weak and distracted you from the story, which is never good. How much better would it have been if she yanked one of the tubes and it sprayed out some liquid that crystallized on contact "Gah," says Starbuck. Then the lightbulb comes on and she points it at the hole (or at her suit jammed in the hole - either way) and says "Sealent. That'll do." or something. Just like the tape - it was already becoming clear to Apollo that it wasn't a Cylon in that ship. Couldn't they have done some wing-waggling or blink some landing lights at each other or fire the cylon's guns in morse code?

And to be honest, I really don't buy Adama's behavior. I just don't see him risking the fleet to save this one pilot, even if it was Starbuck. I know the man isn't perfect, I can see him stretching their time a bit, but using almost half their reserve fuel to hunt for her.

Didn't bother me.

And, btw, where are they going to get more fuel? That seems to be a flaw. The Vipers need to use some sort of super battery pack to recharge from the Galactica's reactors or something.

This is actually answered on the Scif-fi website, but it's spoilerish so I won't get into it. Suffice to say, it hasn't been overlooked.

Which is leading to another thing. They've introduced a need for water. And fuel. Well, what about food? They can't bring this realistic stuff in and not deal with it in some way.

They've already shown the hydroponic ships floating by in the fleet - they're the ones with a couple big huge domes connected together. At least, that's what they looked like in the original series, and they seem to have modeled a lot of the fleet's ships on old-series appearances.

Sith

[warning]

Which is leading to another thing. They've introduced a need for water. And fuel.

(minor) FUTURE SPOILER WARNING(s)...
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.
.
.
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They will deal with fuel before the season is out.

Food they've already mentioned (Episode 2 I think) but won't really deal with.
.
.
.
.
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SPOLIERS OVER

Yes. Yes they will. 8)

[Daehawk]

One thing I did'nt like was the raider ship is controlled by a brain and no muscles..it thought what it wanted to do and did it...yet she flew it using physical controls.

[Odin]

Yeah, the emotional aspects of this episode were really done well, but I don't think you'll get much argument that the whole concept of the raider, its technology, and what Starbuck did with it was handled badly. Possibly they'll explain it later in a way that helps these seeming incongruities make sense, but it seems more likely that the writers just didn't get it right this time.

Sith

[Grifman]

Yeah, the emotional aspects of this episode were really done well,

Yes, I give them continuing thumbs up on this. The confrontation with the President was good, it was interesting to see her give Adama a come uppance. And the moment between Starbuck and Adama at the end was good - Starbuck came off as such a hardass butch early on, but they have really deepened her character so much in the last two eps. It was good to see her cry like a girl

[Daehawk]

Yeah there were 2 nice emotional moments..

The one at the end with Adama and Starbuck in the recovery ward..

but even better was the one between Adama son and father where Apollo asks if it was him down there and Adama sr says "we'd never leave" Very touching moment that i liked.

[Freezer-TPF-]

The confrontation with the President was good, it was interesting to see her give Adama a come uppance.

I agree, the President did a great job there. I still see her as Mrs. Darko though.

[raydude]

One thing I did'nt like was the raider ship is controlled by a brain and no muscles..it thought what it wanted to do and did it...yet she flew it using physical controls.

Built-in modularity possibly. Build the raider with a brain for a pilot but include standard controls for the cylon "human" models. That way the "human" models can exploit the control of the raider for whatever reason.

This also feeds into my growing theory for why the Cylons are trying to incoporate biology into their models. Previously (in the 1985-era models) they were probably all metal and programming, hence all digital. Somewhere along the way they realized that the unpredicatable or unprecise behavior of analog systems (i.e. biological) would produce results that were sometimes superior to their digital mode of thinking.

Hence, the human models (like #6) and biological pilots for the raiders. Somewhere too they realized that the human models could exploit their biological makeup and create solutions on the fly. So, they started to incorporate machines, such as the raider, with backup controls so the human models could operate them in circumstances even the Cylons couldn't conceive of happening.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Not my favorite ep, too much disbelief.

I'm sure Buck's coat or whatever she used to plug that hole would have 1: kept it plugged while entering space, let alone high altitude,
2: had it completely sealed so that she could breath.

A little to corny for my tastes, kind of insulted my intelligence (which is not hard to do )

Actually, hate to say it, this kind of ruined this ep for me. Weakest ep by far She's got a hole bigger than my fist in the cockpit and she's flies into the vaccum of space. Sorry, don't buy it. For a decent sci-fi show, this is a no no.

And to be honest, I really don't buy Adama's behavior. I just don't see him risking the fleet to save this one pilot, even if it was Starbuck. I know the man isn't perfect, I can see him stretching their time a bit, but using almost half their reserve fuel to hunt for her. And, btw, where are they going to get more fuel? That seems to be a flaw. The Vipers need to use some sort of super battery pack to recharge from the Galactica's reactors or something.

Which is leading to another thing. They've introduced a need for water. And fuel. Well, what about food? They can't bring this realistic stuff in and not deal with it in some way.

I couldn't agree more.

The whole "Starbuck-hollowing-out-and-hotwiring-a-biomechanical-ship" thing definitely ruined this episode for me. I realise the bloke behind the show wanted to avoid "technobabble" in this series, but seriously... WTF? That was just laughably implausible. How did she survive the dogfight with Apollo, for example? Assuming, of course, the cylons didn't happen to build-in some handy-dandy, perfectly-readable-by-humans sensors in those ships.

I dunno, I felt like that episode was asking us to believe that by virtue of the fact that Erwin Rommel was an expert at tank warfare, he would be able to hollow out an elephant and take on an Abrams tank.

[Odin]

I dunno, I felt like that episode was asking us to believe that by virtue of the fact that Erwin Rommel was an expert at tank warfare, he would be able to hollow out an elephant and take on an Abrams tank.

LOL! "And I thought they smelled bad on the outside!"

[MonkeyFinger]

Not a comment on this particular episode, but I like the way they've handled the space combat. From what little I remember of the original series, it was the typical "fighter-planes-in-space" style of combat - wide sweeping turns, everything lines up like there is a definite sense of up and down, all that crap.

This has a more 'Babylon 5 Starfury combat' feel to it for me. Manuevering jets, fly one way shoot another, inertia, you know... more "real". Whatever that means in a show like this, anywho.

[raydude]

I dunno, I felt like that episode was asking us to believe that by virtue of the fact that Erwin Rommel was an expert at tank warfare, he would be able to hollow out an elephant and take on an Abrams tank.

Not quite. First, instead of Rommel, try Wittman - since he was an excellent tank commander and Rommel was an expert in armored warfare. Two different things.

Second, biomechanics aside, the raider was just another vehicle - one piloted by the enemy. So instead of an elephant try a Sherman tank.

Third, Starbuck was going up against the main enemy of a Raider - the Viper starfighter. So in your analogy the main enemy of a Sherman would be a Panzer IV.

Doesn't sound so implausible now does it?

[DiscoJason]

Uh oh....I am smelling a lot of over-analysis in this thread. I actually feel sorry for those of you who can't just enjoy the show for what it is and instead have to analyze whether the spacesuit could seal off the hole, whether Starbuck should survive in a dogfight against Apollo in a machine she just jerry-rigged, or when she had time to put Star-buck on the bottom of the ship. Yet you all have no problems with hyperspace jumping and stuff like that which we don't currently have the technology to do and don't actually know if it is even possible. What I personally like to do with that stuff when I see it is note that in my head that it seems odd and then just drop it. That way I can enjoy a good show for what it is...a good show. Here's hoping you guys can one day do the same. You will enjoy life a lot more...trust me. Unless, of course, over-analysis is what makes you happy, in which case, carry on!

Seriously, though, I am enjoying this show a ton. I haven't really watched any of the other Sci Fi Channel shows, so I am not sure how they stack up to this one. THe problem is I can't really jump into the other ones like Stargate because I don't like to miss things from the beginning.

As far as Starbuck goes, I am really loving her character. She reminds me so much of the original Starbuck, but she is cooler because she is a chick doing all this stuff. This, of course, is what they were going for when they made this character change and I fell for it.

[Odin]

Uh oh....I am smelling a lot of over-analysis in this thread. I actually feel sorry for those of you who can't just enjoy the show for what it is and instead have to analyze whether the spacesuit could seal off the hole, whether Starbuck should survive in a dogfight against Apollo in a machine she just jerry-rigged, or when she had time to put Star-buck on the bottom of the ship. Yet you all have no problems with hyperspace jumping and stuff like that which we don't currently have the technology to do and don't actually know if it is even possible. What I personally like to do with that stuff when I see it is note that in my head that it seems odd and then just drop it. That way I can enjoy a good show for what it is...a good show. Here's hoping you guys can one day do the same. You will enjoy life a lot more...trust me. Unless, of course, over-analysis is what makes you happy, in which case, carry on!

Suspension of disbelief is a funny thing. The writers can get away with A LOT if they handle it properly. Give us a reason to suspend our disbelief. Can Ka D'argo just hold his breath and float around in outerspace in Farscape? Sure - he's an alien. Whatever. Just don't show him putting on a sweater on the ship because they turned the thermostat down a couple degrees and we're cool. Could the writers do the same with Starbuck? No way - they've made no attempt to explain how a human could go EVA without a suit.

The same is true here. They've established hyperspace travel as something that works within certain parameters, and it's also a sci-fi staple that people are already comfortable with (the distances in outerspace make sci-fi impractical if you can't travel at relativistic speeds). Same as how we generally just ignore aliens speaking English - it's recognized as being an affectation to move the drama along, like an aside in the theatre.

But this episode really pushed the limits, largely because it didn't so much ask us to suspend disbelief (by attempting to give logical if implausible explanations), but it just sort of tossed everything out there and said "Believe it, don't believe it... meh, whatever." It could have been handled better, achieved the same results (Starbuck gets off-planet in the raider), but not left these gaping holes that tested the audience to such a degree. It's just not up to the quality that the show set with the previous 4 episodes.

Sith

[DiscoJason]

That's actually the best argument I have seen for this type of thing. Good job, Sith. I undertand you guys a little more now.

[raydude]

Seriously though I think the tendency for most of the over analyzers here is to immediately say "Whoa, that can't have happened! No Way!" than to try to imagine how it possibly could have happened.

I wonder if it is a result of watching so many years of Star Trek, where if they spew enough technobabble then it could be explained away. Or maybe its because Hollywood itself tends to spoon feed us all the backstory and the information such that we can't imagine for ourselves anymore.

Call me crazy but one of the reason why I love science fiction is because it forces me to think about the "what ifs" and wonder "how would that work" in every story, movie, or sci-fi series I see. I would much rather ponder things like:

Why are the cylons playing a game of "psych out the human" with Helo?
Why is the hatch to the cylon ship covered with organic material?
What if the Cylon raider possesses a "virus" in its components? Could it infect the computer systems of the Galactica?
What will they find out from the "brain carcass" that Starbuck pulled out of the Raider's "pilot seat"? Will it have human DNA?

Of course, someone is probably going to answer with one-liners to each of these, but no matter. I still like to think about them, because the enjoyment of good sci-fi for me doesn't end when the credits start rolling.

[Daehawk]

I think she left the Cylon brain back on the planet.

[Odin]

I think she left the Cylon brain back on the planet.

Could well be - she sort of shoved it back behind her. Whether she kicked it all the way out the hatch or not is open to speculation.

Sith

[Ramoz]

One of my complaints is the bad sfx job. One of the vipers in the previous episode gets it wing shot off, next shots show both vipers with wings attached, then in the last episode it shows the viper with the wing shot off sitting in the hanger..

Maybe they just didn't have time to go back and fix that.

[Grifman]

One of my complaints is the bad sfx job. One of the vipers in the previous episode gets it wing shot off, next shots show both vipers with wings attached, then in the last episode it shows the viper with the wing shot off sitting in the hanger..

Maybe they just didn't have time to go back and fix that.

That's not bad sfx, that's bad continuity and editing.

[SkyLander]

One of my complaints is the bad sfx job. One of the vipers in the previous episode gets it wing shot off, next shots show both vipers with wings attached, then in the last episode it shows the viper with the wing shot off sitting in the hanger..

Maybe they just didn't have time to go back and fix that.

That's not bad sfx, that's bad continuity and editing.

In the 1st part 2 vipers got there wings blown off. Starbucks and Hotdogs.

there are 40 sem odd viperse on galactica. Hotdogs was the one in the hangar.

This is from that one dudes blog:

"It seems like Vipers are being blown up in large numbers--how many Vipers are on Galactica (I believe TOS had 4 color coded squadrons) and how are they being replaced if they can't be repaired? Is there a factory ship that makes them--or can Galactica make them from scratch?"

We haven't stared building new Vipers yet, but that's something I hope to start tackling in the second season. We're definitely keeping track of the numbers of ships and pilots and hopefully, the continuity will all hang together.

[Odin]

This is another thing you can learn about in more detail if you poke around the Sci-Fi.com BSG website. There are definitely some spoilers to be had there - such as on the page that talks about a bunch of different ships in the fleet - some of which we haven't seen yet.

Sith

[tiny ogre]

What if the Cylon raider possesses a "virus" in its components? Could it infect the computer systems of the Galactica?

Well, I know you didn't want one line answers, but there really is an answer for this one, and it's one of the central premises of the show, dating back to the miniseries. The Galactica's computers are not networked for precisely this reason. The whole ship is designed with that sort of attack in mind, which is why it was the only military ship to survive the initial attack, and why it sometimes seems primitive even by our standards.

[Ramoz]

One of my complaints is the bad sfx job. One of the vipers in the previous episode gets it wing shot off, next shots show both vipers with wings attached, then in the last episode it shows the viper with the wing shot off sitting in the hanger..

Maybe they just didn't have time to go back and fix that.

That's not bad sfx, that's bad continuity and editing.

In the 1st part 2 vipers got there wings blown off. Starbucks and Hotdogs.

there are 40 sem odd viperse on galactica. Hotdogs was the one in the hangar.

This is from that one dudes blog:

"It seems like Vipers are being blown up in large numbers--how many Vipers are on Galactica (I believe TOS had 4 color coded squadrons) and how are they being replaced if they can't be repaired? Is there a factory ship that makes them--or can Galactica make them from scratch?"

We haven't stared building new Vipers yet, but that's something I hope to start tackling in the second season. We're definitely keeping track of the numbers of ships and pilots and hopefully, the continuity will all hang together.

I don't have a problem with that. It's when one scene a ship gets damaged and the very next scene 20 secs later, the ship is completely pristine with both wings.

[SkyLander]

Not sure how you can tell it was the same ship they all look the same to me except for the 1 remaining viper mk20 or whatever.