Axis And Allies - OO Game 1 - UK Turn 1

[Screwtape]

I changed the title so we can get another game going.

if there is room for another 5 (or less) player game i'm open to playing multiple games.

[LordMortis]

I changed the title so we can get another game going.

if there is room for another 5 (or less) player game i'm open to playing multiple games.

I am open to playing.

[chonpokguy]

let me know if additional bodies (noobs) r needed.

ive been wanting to play A&A for YEARS and nows my chance to get my fix.

[Bakhtosh]

Do we want to keep this thread open or move to a clean one?

Also, where is the game? I never did get an e-mail about the game starting. Redfive, can you confirm the e-mail address you used for me (by PM please)?

[El Guapo]

Do we want to keep this thread open or move to a clean one?

Also, where is the game? I never did get an e-mail about the game starting. Redfive, can you confirm the e-mail address you used for me (by PM please)?

I sent you a reminder through the game after I finished my turn, so if the game has the right e-mail address you should have an e-mail.

[Bakhtosh]

Then we have a problem. I didn't get the e-mail. I'd suggest someone use the "Report Problem" link to request that they change the e-mail address for USA to g*a*r*r*y*u@gmail.com (remove the *s). Please post here before you send the problem report, so they don't get multiple requests.

If Redfive didnt' copy & paste my e-mail, it's likely that he missed an 'r' since it's an uncommon spelling.

[chonpokguy]

Then we have a problem. I didn't get the e-mail. I'd suggest someone use the "Report Problem" link to request that they change the e-mail address for USA to g*a*r*r*y*u@gmail.com (remove the *s). Please post here before you send the problem report, so they don't get multiple requests.

If Redfive didnt' copy & paste my e-mail, it's likely that he missed an 'r' since it's an uncommon spelling.

Did you check "My Games"?

For the game you and I tested, I never got the email until 7hours later.

I still didnt get the email for the current game.

I saw the post by Redfive.

[chonpokguy]

You can also possibly try consolidating your profiles?

http://gamesbyemail.com/User/ConsolidateProfiles

[El Guapo]

FWIW, the game is here: http://gamesbyemail.com/Games/Play?377571150

If you haven't already, I'd try logging into the gamesbye website and see if you can find your way to the game. If not, Redfive set it up, right? Maybe he has some admin abilities or can otherwise check out how it was set up?

[Redfive]

The PM I received was to a yahoo account..same prefix though. Do you have a yahoo account? If so I would suggest using that if you don't mind. If not, then I will proceed with 'opening a ticket'.

[Redfive]

I went ahead and reported the problem to see if they can put the correct email address in for Bakhtosh.

[Bakhtosh]

The PM I received was to a yahoo account..same prefix though. Do you have a yahoo account? If so I would suggest using that if you don't mind. If not, then I will proceed with 'opening a ticket'.

I sent you a PM with the subject "A&A" with my gmail address in it. I DO have a yahoo account by that same name, but I don't see any PMs in my sentbox that give you that address.

[El Guapo]

I gather that the problem is solved?

Redfive, you're up.

[Redfive]

The PM I received was to a yahoo account..same prefix though. Do you have a yahoo account? If so I would suggest using that if you don't mind. If not, then I will proceed with 'opening a ticket'.

I sent you a PM with the subject "A&A" with my gmail address in it. I DO have a yahoo account by that same name, but I don't see any PMs in my sentbox that give you that address.

Yes, you are correct. When I was setting up the game I put out a call for email addresses without checking what I already had and one of our other players sent me the yahoo address for you. Sorry.

[Bakhtosh]

Yeah, GamesByEmail changed the e-mail address of record.

[Redfive]

Allies, please check the forum set up the other day.

[Bakhtosh]

Sorry, with the advent of the chat window in the new game, I forgot about that.

[chonpokguy]

Here is how things look at end of Turn 2.

I may be a noob, but i think things are not looking good!

Hopefully our plans and the dice gods will come through.

[El Guapo]

Whenever you're ready, chonpokguy

[chonpokguy]

my internet at home was down =(

couldnt login login until work and they log my logins so i didnt want to login but i logged in.

if that makes sense.

[El Guapo]

Gotcha - no worries.

[Bakhtosh]

Starting Board

Russia fights an expensive victory in Eastern Europe and parks his fleet in the UK sea zone.

Germany has the best turn 1 I've ever seen. Everything he touches turns to gold. His Panzer Corps are running rampant in Eastern Europe. His aircraft and fleets make short work of every Allied fleet they could reach, and Rommel pounds the UK in Africa. 10 infantry are bought & placed.

UK attempts to eliminate the German fleet, and does a pretty good job, but the Bismark continues to prowl the Med. India is vacated in an unusual move that all but eliminates the German presence in Africa. Transports and infantry are added to facilitate future amphibious landings.

Japan makes an amphibious landing into Soviet Far East, marches into China and India, and somehow destroys the US fleet around Hawaii while keeping the vast majority of his naval power in tact. 1 Tank, 1 Transport and 1 Fighter are placed in Japan.

USA takes advantage of an undefended Indo-China to gain 3 IPCs for a turn. A bomber is sent out and sinks the Bismark, but suffers severe damage during the run and is lost at sea. Units are positioned and a bomber is added in the Western US to forestall an invasion attempt by Japan. Transports are added in the east to move our boys into Europe.


The Axis controls 63 NPL.
The Allies control no enemy capitols.

NPL gains/losses:
Russia loses 2
Germany gains 2
UK loses 5
Japan gains 4
USA gains 1

[Bakhtosh]

Russia attempts to gain some cushion against the Germans by retaking Caucasus, and to weaken the Japanese by taking Manchuria. Karelia is reinforced with every Russian unit available.

Germany once again sinks the British fleet. Opposition in Caucasus is eliminated, but it remains under Russian control. More infantry are placed in Germany.

UK liberates more of Africa and places a carrier and transport into the sea zone.

Japan eliminates all opposition in the far east and places a factory in India to more quickly get units into Russia's underdefended eastern front.

USA makes a pitiful attempt to liberate Western Europe and the dice send him packing. A bomber and battleship are purchased for the European theater.


Axis control 68 NPL.
Allies control no Axis capitols.

NPL gains/losses
Russia loses 2: 4 lost total
Germany loses 2: 0 gain/loss total
UK gains 2: 3 lost total
Japan gains 7: 11 gained total
USA loses 5: 4 lost total

[Bakhtosh]

[El Guapo]

In the interest of drumming up interest in the game, and as a kind of quick behind-the-scenes AAR, here is the Axis planning chat from this past game. I'm Japan, and Screwtape is Germany:

Screwtape: OK. i think that went well for me again

Screwtape: i did lose an extra fighter in the attack on the british fleet .. but overall i won't complain

Screwtape: hitting soviet far east hard would let you kill that tank... i guess we'll see what the UK does with the indian force

El Guapo: Yeah, I'll definitely hit the Soviet Far East and China. Depending on what the UK does, possible third target of the U.S. Hawaiian fleet (more likely) or Sinkiang (less likely)

El Guapo: Also, why so much infantry? I would think that armor would be more useful for pouring into Russia more rapidly. Or airplanes for both anti-Russia and anti-England.

Screwtape: RE: INF. inf will work. USSR can't afford to attack a stack of inf. also, i have enough armor on the board to start the game. the armor just needs a thick meat shield. lastly, in games that i have played, germany will need all the INF it can get to hold out for japan to wild over asia.

Screwtape: granted... i'm playing with people that i haven't played with before, so we'll see how it plays out.. but bigs stacks of INF, IMHO are very very powerful.

Screwtape: the thing is.. if you can make russia build troops in russia instead of karelia, i will be able to overpower him. i can produce more units every round *and* i start with more on the board.

Screwtape: oh yea

Screwtape: again, IMHO, redfive made the same mistake in both games.

Screwtape: USSR needs to make INF more than i do. he built 3 ARM instead of 5 INF. i dunno if those ARM will ever attack, we'll see how it plays out.

El Guapo: So I went with the bolder plan. The attack on the Hawaiian fleet was a bit costly, but otherwise went fine, and the other attacks went very well. Indo-China and Manchuria are open, but I decided that was preferable to spreading my limited infantry around, and if Russia/the U.S. take either I can easily smash their forces there, especially since my airforce is now entirely free to focus on Asia.

El Guapo: Agreed that Russia screwed the pooch building armor. I think the rule for Russia is that you build nothing but infantry until Germany's momentum is stopped, and then gradually switch to armor

Screwtape: wow! i'm just checking the board now! excellent turn for you!

Screwtape: looks like i'll lose africa again but that is OK, b/c you go to take india and smash the US FTR and the USSR tank

Screwtape: i still have my battleship, so i'll get to clean up on teh UK again (no aircraft carrier!!! YES!!!)

Screwtape: also.. the UK moved a fighter to the US??? i dunno what that is about

Screwtape: wow..looking at asia again.. you are in really really really good shape! only 6 total INF until it is all yours

Screwtape: i'm very interested to see what USSR is going to do... a split attack between ukraine and finland??

Screwtape: the USSR must respect the fact that you can blitz to russia, after you smash yakut next turn

Screwtape: depending on how things pan out i might build all tanks next round... i just didn't see asia folding this quickly.

Screwtape: i just went through the log

Screwtape: UK had a terrible turn!! lost a FTR to the transport and lost his bomber w/o killing my battleship ouch

Screwtape: i dunno why he took his FTR to the USA to kill my sub... that doesn't make sense..

El Guapo: Yeah, the allies haven't played well so far, so I like our chances. This is why as Russia I always throw everything at Manchuria right away. If you win, it really slows Japan down in Asia (and destroys a fighter). Even if you lose - and you retreat when it becomes clear that you're not going to win - it decimates Japan's land forces in Asia, and hampers their ability to go after both Russia and China simultaneously

El Guapo: I'm curious whether Bakhtosh will go after my fleet at Wake... he could only attack with a transport, battleship, and bomber, so it's high risk, but if he doesn't then I can keep two battleships, a carrier with two fighters, and any other ships in Japan, which would be very tough for him to attack once he's built up his pacific fleet.

Screwtape: the US attacking the fleet at wake would be very good for us. the only thing you have of real worth there is the fighter (which might survive). the USA would remove a bomber and a transport from the german theater (good again)

Screwtape: hhmmm... i don't like how that turned out.. lost a bomber to the transports

Screwtape: good news though.. the US bought a bomber!!! maybe he'll waste time in teh pacific

Screwtape: i really don't want karelia to attack ukraine. i really want him to hit easter europe (if he attacks anywhere hard)

Screwtape: i think the attack into ukraine was a mistake

Screwtape: good news though.. you should kill all remaining INF in asia.. so at least you'll be forcing him to turn back next turn.

Screwtape: him being USSR

Screwtape: yea.. i shouldn't have left all my armor out like that

Screwtape: that was a mistake

Screwtape: redfive seems to be conservative though.. perhaps he won't attack b/c you will be breathing down his throat.

El Guapo: Yeah, we'll see. I should be able to wipe out all remaining Asian opposition this turn, and take Manchuria, Yakut, Indo-China, and Sinkiang

El Guapo: Depending on what the U.K. does in Africa - i.e. if he moves his infantry west and away from India, I may plop down an IC in India this turn, which would allow me to crank out armor to overrun Asia (and possibly Africa) pretty quickly.

Screwtape: good news UK wants africa back

Screwtape: well done! i see that we have a real threat to take russia next turn!

Screwtape: oh wow
i just read the log

Screwtape: USA actually attacked western europe! i was trying to tease the USA to do it.. i didn't actually think he would

Screwtape: also.. the USA didn't buy any more transports so it will be two turns before he can hit me again

Screwtape: even though the USSR front isn't going as well as i wanted. i think i'm in very good shape. i think this game is really over.

El Guapo: Yeah, I agree. The U.S. is really in no position to threaten me at all, and I should be at the gates of Moscow with a sizable land army in reserve by the end of next year... I think we're pretty set.

El Guapo: I think the way to go at this point is to use the 8 infantry in E. Europe plus airpower to destroy Russia's armored core in the Ukraine, move infantry to Eastern Europe, and build armor to assault Karelia next turn (while I reach the gates of Moscow from the other side).

Screwtape: well.. honestly it sucked losing all the armor, but the result actually is very nice.

Screwtape: overall he lost more than i did.

Screwtape: and i don't think he can attack me next turn, he will be forced to retreat to russia

El Guapo: Well, I messed up my build due to not understanding how new ICs work, but other than that the turn was a cakewalk.

El Guapo: I can now seriously threaten both Russia, the caucasus, and Africa.

El Guapo: I'm curious to see how Russia will handle this

Screwtape: i think i'm going to kill that UK transport. it now threatens southern europe and i don't want to divert any troops there.

Screwtape: but yea.. USSR has to back off now. i should have karelia and caucasus next turn

Screwtape: i will swich back to all INF next turn as now the USA and UK can actually hit me pretty hard.

Screwtape: WOW!!!!! good job! USSR is *very* scared of you

El Guapo: Actually, depending on what the UK does, we have a good shot at winning this round. We're only 2 NPL short of the Axis victory condition. The U.S. may be able to take the Soviet Far East, but I should be able to take Egypt and South Africa at least, and maybe more.

El Guapo: Hmmm...maybe not so much with losing western europe (for this turn). 8 NPLs is probably a bit much to shoot for

Screwtape: wow.. western europe went *terrible* for me. i'm going to have to pour alot into that fight to take it back. (i assume the US is going to send all its troops there)

El Guapo: Yeah, I'm building an invasion fleet for the U.S., so he'll have to divide his focus

El Guapo: While building up a credible armored core in asia to still threaten Russia

Screwtape: i think i am going to divert some, maybe all of my armor back to berlin. i can't afford to lose western europe each time. i want the UK to attack eastern europe, not western. i need to make that happen for them.

Screwtape: i think my fighters will end up in karelia next turn. i thik i'm going to push all 11 INF inot western, then have armor in berlin with the new INF i should be able to take and hold western europe after UK/US take it back again.

Screwtape: USA only has 2 transports they can hit me western with next turn. i don't think i can take and hold western, but i'll move some armor down so the next time i think i'll be able to take and hold it.

Screwtape: OK.. i was able take back western, but i'll lose it again this round.. however i should be able to smash it for good next round (if there is one)

Screwtape: USSR didn't step out and take any of the cheapies back, so he is really done. he can't produce much anymore

El Guapo: It's fantastic that the USA threw away its bomber in an attack on Egypt

El Guapo: I think I'll take Alaska in addition to the Soviet Far East this turn...he'll have to defend the U.S. instead of going after western Europe, and won't be able to build up his pacific fleet

El Guapo: Assuming I can't end the game this turn, but that'll depend in part on what the UK does this turn.

El Guapo: By the way, where did the U.S. fighter that was in Alaska last turn go?

Screwtape: i dunno. i didn't see the fighter in the log.

Screwtape: wow.. the UK risked a fighter to kill the caucasus INF.. pretty risky but i worked for them.

Screwtape: i'm going to move all my armor and german INF into western next time.. next i'm going to move all but one INF out of eastern, hopefully the UK will hit there, then i can swing all my armor out of western into eastern next turn.

Screwtape: i'm going to clean up caucasus next turn and maybe, if he blitzes the tank ukraine as well.

El Guapo: That went well

El Guapo: Dropped a tank in the caucausus to prevent blitzing into the Ukraine

El Guapo: Africa's pretty wide open, and North America is threatened...

El Guapo: Anyways, we'll see what happens next.

El Guapo: It's weird, I did see a fighter in Alaska last turn...must've been a bug

Screwtape: again.. the USA does odd things. i guess with the move to algeria he is not threating southern europe..

Screwtape: i guess i'm not going to move all that armor over.. i'll move some of it back ot karelia now

Screwtape: also.. USSR really hung alot of its force out to dry in asia. but me moving the armor down allowed him ot do that.

Screwtape: OK
i think if you can kill all the INF in asia i can take russia and end this.

Screwtape: or would we have enough to end it anyway?

El Guapo: I should be able to kill all the INF in Asia, but it'll be close. I should at least decimate the INF (maybe 1 or 2 survivors at most) and take at least 1 province, if not 2

El Guapo: Whether it will matter depends in part on what happens in Western Europe

Screwtape: except for crazy luck, i don't think the UK can take western. the US can only bring 4 INF to the fight.

Screwtape: I am kinda hoping the US will attack southern (perhaps i should have only placed 2 INF there to really tease them)

Screwtape: if the USA attacks southern it will be 3 turns before those transports could be used to attack me again.

El Guapo: Aces all around

El Guapo: Novosibirsk went particularly well

El Guapo: Now the U.S. has to capture Southern Europe, or else we win.

El Guapo: And...he did

Screwtape: sigh

Screwtape: oh well russia will fall to me or you this round.

Screwtape: i played safe and put my fighters in germany, since i think the only chance they have to win is to take germany.

Screwtape: and you can take western USA this turn

Screwtape: we are teammates in the next game

Screwtape: i'm UK you are USA. i assume if i build an aircraft carrier on turn 1 you will move both your fighters to it on your turn 1?

El Guapo: Yeah, that would be the plan

El Guapo: Let's see if I can take both Western Canada and Western USA in the same turn...

El Guapo: Yup

Screwtape:

[Redfive]

Intersting log there.

I don't think building armor is a mistake for Russia but then again, you guys won.

I have more to say from the other perspective but no time now.

[Redfive]

I have a little more time now so I'll elaborate on my thoughts some.

I believe Russia should play very aggressively. You mentioned that buying the three tanks was a mistake and you wondered if I was ever going to use them. Absolutely I was going to use them. I certainly wouldn't spend money on them for defense. I think if Russia attacks early and often then Germany has basically one way they can respond and win. To your credit you did exactly that buy shitloads of INF.

You were right in your chat in that Russia cannot afford to attack tons of INF. Almost every German player I've played against doesn't buy all INF though. They'll buy a fighter or maybe a transport to put in Southern Eur. If they spend their money on things other than INF then an aggressive Russia (with tanks) can overpower them quickly, albeit with defensive help from the UK. You don't need a lot of tanks..just enough to kill stuff while having enough INF to use as a buffer..meatshield I think you said.

Further along there was some commentary along the lines of 'Wow he [Russia] is really scared of you [Japan]' If I recall correctly that was when I sent 3 or perhaps 4 INF out of Russia proper to defend border territories against Japan's Armor while at the same time Germany had Karelia with lots of INF. The only reason I left Russia at all was to try to secure some IPCs. You guys were going to win for sure if I didn't at least attempt it..the math made me do it.

By the way, Guapo had an amazing game as Japan. You had one very solid turn early that had some amazing rolls and that, combined with our complete ceding of India to you, allowed you to roll basically uncontested through Asia.

I have more thoughts on that game but I've got to log into WoW now and I really wanted to address a couple points.

In other news..I'd like to pretend the last game we had just didn't happen..like Einstein went back in time and took out Hitler and the future changed or something...

[El Guapo]

Fair enough. Though I would submit that you have been playing against some very poor German players. I believe my disagreement with your build was really more that it was too early (was it on the first turn?). I think Russia has to be able to credibly hold eastern europe for a turn before more than 1 tank is part of their build. Otherwise you are losing more costly tanks against Germany's counter-attacks, and the tanks are no better at inflicting casualties against the counter-attacks (actually worse, since fewer in number).

I do find the different styles of play here interesting. For one, I seem to be in the minority in thinking that the U.S. should almost always focus on Japan over Germany. My thinking being that, once the UK has their sea zone stable, he and Russia can usually contain Germany as long as Japan is kept in check. And if the U.S. doesn't threaten Japan, Japan can easily just plop down an IC in India, crank out tanks and aircraft, and quickly overrun Asia. As we've seen

India was a gift, yes. Also, it helped that you divided your eastern force between the two eastern soviet provinces, which allowed me to attack it piecemeal. Personally I'm a big fan of Russia attacking Manchuria early, as even if Russia does not take it, it should at least destroy the Japanese infantry and slow down Japan's early ability to push into China. The main problem Japan has early is insufficient ground units in Asia, such that if they suffer casualties they often have to choose between not taking the province or losing expensive aircraft.

Also, wasn't there a point where you withdrew from Karelia back to Russia? I think that was what prompted the "Russia must be scared of you" remark, but my memory's hazy on that point. To be fair, I did have like 2 inf, 2 arm, and several aircraft within reach of Russia, so there was some reason for trepidation.

[Screwtape]

let me preface by saying: i have played many games of A&A (no idea exactly how many but about 2-4 games a week for a year in high school) however, they were all with the same opponent. we felt as though we 'solved' (as much as you can solve a game with as much luck as A&A has) the game. perhaps we were incorrect. i look forward to several games to see if we did 'solve' the game many years ago.

I believe Russia should play very aggressively. You mentioned that buying the three tanks was a mistake and you wondered if I was ever going to use them. Absolutely I was going to use them. I certainly wouldn't spend money on them for defense.

i was not implying that you would use the tanks for defense only. russia does not have the luxury of going on offense early for two reasons. first, germany has many more units in the european theater than russia. second, germany has higher production than russia. therefore if russia trades units with germany russisa will lose. russia *must* hold on until the UK and USA (yes guapo *and* the USA) spell them.

Further along there was some commentary along the lines of 'Wow he [Russia] is really scared of you [Japan]'

that comment was made after (IIRC) you vacated karelia, allowing me to take it without a shot being fired. i was shocked by the move. it was said in jest because, IIRC, japan could only bring a couple of tanks and fighters to hit moscow that turn.

[Redfive]

By the way, I didn't note above that you guys both deserve credit and after reading what I posted I think it can be misunderstood that I was trying to take that away. You both played great games.

Screwtape--I have a very similar experience to you. I played A&A lot's of times in high school and way, way too many times my first two years of college. I also believe that the game had been figured out. I've referenced it before, though maybe not here, that I feel the game can be distilled down to the second or even sometimes the first turn to decide who wins. This was, however, against mostly the same opponents (4-5 guys) back then and more recently (last 10 years) against the admittedly bad PC game AI.

I'll concede that 3 armor first turn for Russia is probably too aggressive against a good human--it bitch slaps the AI though

I need to go review the log but I feel certain that the reason I retreated to Russia, leaving Karelia was because I had decided that trying to keep it was untenable.

Yes, we need to play more games. I really like playing with/against people that are good and that I haven't played with before now. Guapo is on my team this current game and I'd like to have a game with you on my team so we can discuss in detail.

[El Guapo]

I'm fascinated by the focus of the USA on Germany here. Most of the games I played (with a few different groups of people) involved the U.S. focusing on Japan. I think that's the right approach. The U.S. can certainly help the UK secure its sea zone by sending fighter(s) and a transport/infantry. Once the UK sea zone is secure, however, I think that once the UK sea zone is secure, the UK and USSR will almost inevitably win over Germany unless Germany makes a breakthrough very soon thereafter. That's because the UK + USSR > Germany's production, UK can reinforce Russia (including with invaluable fighters), and once the UK has enough transports it can just keep throwing troops at Western Europe - Germany doesn't have enough production to fight on both fronts, and can't really replace airforce losses it suffers.

But the USA is really the only country that can contain Japan in Asia. With good early rolls the USSR and Chinese (USA) can slow Japan down a turn or two, but ultimately unopposed Japan can run roughshod over Asia *really* quickly (see game 1 ). The U.S. can separate Japan from the mainland by destroying its fleet, and once it has done that the UK and USSR holdings in Asia can be held and Japan can be rolled back. And indeed, on several occasions I have seen the U.S. take Japan by itself before the fall of Berlin (though that takes some good timing and a bit of luck).

So I'm interested to see how this plays out in games here. I can tell you that as Japan I was a big fan of the "Germany first" strategy

[Redfive]

To me the US is the most flexible by far..I don't guess that's a surprise to anyone here. With its industrial capacity and insulation from attack (Asia not included) they can pretty easily focus on Japan and still support Europe some.

[Screwtape]

I'm fascinated by the focus of the USA on Germany here.

it is the *correct* way to play

YGPM

[Bakhtosh]

If Russia has a bad turn 1 and the dice give Germany an easy walk into Karellia, and Germany wins every sea territory combat, then they can hold UK off while they finish Russia. Once Russia is gone, the economic victory is almost too easy. A lucky USA can probably stomp an unlucky Japan, but I prefer to let Russia split it's forces on Germany/Japan while USA and UK pound Germany. UK & USA have a real disadvantage at the start by having almost all of their naval assets within easy reach of Germany.

[El Guapo]

I'm fascinated by the focus of the USA on Germany here.

it is the *correct* way to play

YGPM

Clearly