Diplomacy - Testers needed for new online tool

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:13 pm

http://gamesbyemail.com has a new online diplomacy clone in beta. Anyone willing to help me test it? I don't think we NEED 7 players since this is just to beta test the tool, and if we do start a game, it will be just to test the tool, not for a serious game.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:22 pm

Bakhtosh wrote:http://gamesbyemail.com has a new online diplomacy clone in beta. Anyone willing to help me test it? I don't think we NEED 7 players since this is just to beta test the tool, and if we do start a game, it will be just to test the tool, not for a serious game.

You have my email so I'll certainly give it a test.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:52 pm

PMing email now.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:54 pm

That's 3. If no one else wants in, that will let us each have 2 nations, and we can leave one with hold orders.

How do you want to divide it up?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:58 pm

I don't care. Random or assign me whatever...

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:15 pm

France/England
Italy/Germany/Austria
Russia/Turkey

If we are just running a few turns then going with the semi-traditional strong alliances should be fine. Are you planning on starting it today though because I have mayeb another 1/2 hour of peace then class then practice then game until around 11:00ish and won't be home until around 11:30ish most likely.

Redfive · Post by **Redfive** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:36 pm

I've never played but heck I'll do it if you still need more. I know the game by reputation and it sounds fun.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:11 pm

It's already underway, but if it goes quick, I'm sure we'll run up another. This looks like an awesome tool to use to run the game.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:44 am

Bakhtosh wrote:It's already underway, but if it goes quick, I'm sure we'll run up another. This looks like an awesome tool to use to run the game.

I made my moves and advanced the turn. I don't know if everyone has to advance the turns on their own or what. Bakhtosh, is there a time limit you can set for how long folks have to place their orders?

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:27 am

No time limit I'm aware of. I'll suggest it.

chonpokguy · Post by **chonpokguy** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:18 am

I second RedFive's reply

never played it but i heard much about it so i am curious

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:07 pm

Curious aside: are there any copyright issues with this and with the Axis & Allies game? Are they paying royalties, or what?

Just wondering.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:56 am

Well, technically, he's created a game called "WWII" that is remarkably similar to Axis & Allies, and a game called "Politics" that is remarkably similar to Diplomacy.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:03 am

Bakhtosh wrote:Well, technically, he's created a game called "WWII" that is remarkably similar to Axis & Allies, and a game called "Politics" that is remarkably similar to Diplomacy.

That and he's not selling it... if that makes a difference. (And I'm not sure you can buy Diplo anymore either, can you?)

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:50 am

Austin wrote:
Bakhtosh wrote:Well, technically, he's created a game called "WWII" that is remarkably similar to Axis & Allies, and a game called "Politics" that is remarkably similar to Diplomacy.
That and he's not selling it... if that makes a difference. (And I'm not sure you can buy Diplo anymore either, can you?)

Yes, it was reprinted, a friend of mine has the new version. Little metal cannons and ships rather than plastic stars and anchors.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:05 pm

Remus West wrote:
Austin wrote:
Bakhtosh wrote:Well, technically, he's created a game called "WWII" that is remarkably similar to Axis & Allies, and a game called "Politics" that is remarkably similar to Diplomacy.
That and he's not selling it... if that makes a difference. (And I'm not sure you can buy Diplo anymore either, can you?)
Yes, it was reprinted, a friend of mine has the new version. Little metal cannons and ships rather than plastic stars and anchors.

Sounds cool; too bad I don't have people to play with who'd be into it around here.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:18 pm

Austin wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Austin wrote:
Bakhtosh wrote:Well, technically, he's created a game called "WWII" that is remarkably similar to Axis & Allies, and a game called "Politics" that is remarkably similar to Diplomacy.
That and he's not selling it... if that makes a difference. (And I'm not sure you can buy Diplo anymore either, can you?)
Yes, it was reprinted, a friend of mine has the new version. Little metal cannons and ships rather than plastic stars and anchors.
Sounds cool; too bad I don't have people to play with who'd be into it around here.

I am finding that I actually like the online way of playing it better. The game really does take hours to play and folks will always argue over time limits but if you do not impose them in the face-to-face it takes even more hours. The trouble with that is not really the length but that the game gets down to only a few people really playing pretty quickly and then you have 1 or 2 guys sitting around waiting for you to finish so we errr...they can play something else. Online we do not have to worry about that.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:11 pm

Austin wrote:
Bakhtosh wrote:Well, technically, he's created a game called "WWII" that is remarkably similar to Axis & Allies, and a game called "Politics" that is remarkably similar to Diplomacy.
That and he's not selling it... if that makes a difference. (And I'm not sure you can buy Diplo anymore either, can you?)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that neither of those things makes a difference. These games aren't "remarkably similar" - they are the EXACT games (and, in fact, when they posted for beta testers for politics they asked for beta testers for a "Diplomacy clone," so they're not even really pretending that it's anything different. And not selling it does not make a difference. If I started printing books that were called "Joe the Wizard" but were exact copies of the Harry Potter books, you bet I'd get a threatening letter, even if I gave them away (even if I'm not making a profit, I'm still undercutting sales from people who would otherwise buy the book).

And there is a Diplomacy computer game with multiplayer...you think they would be upset.

But given that it's all out in the open, I would guess that they have at least the tacit consent of the companies involved. Either that, or they're not very smart.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:14 pm

Oh, and if you wouldn't mind posting the link to the game, I do enjoy being a bystander to these games as well.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:24 am

Here is the text from my conversations with Scott - the owner of gamesbyemail:

> Problem/Suggestion:
> The game board is awfully small. It desperately needs to be bigger. The WWII game is a really good size.
>
> It would be nice to have the option of using "A" for army and "F" for fleet instead of the pictures (of course, if the board was made bigger, it might not be a problem).
>
> Also, sometimes when trying to use the mouse shortcuts, the move doesn't work and it pops up the move options menu for the unit you clicked on. You have to cancel that window in order to resume using the mouse. It would be nice if clicking on the game board again would close the move menu and let you use the mouse shortcuts again.
>
Scott Nesin
I am stuck with the map size, for now at least. Too many arrow images
to redraw if I make it bigger. Most new browers let you zoom in and
out, and I think I will let them handle the scaling. The small size
lets it be easly played on mobile devices.

I will also be adding a preference to hide the country names (which
are really only needed in the choose orders box, not with the mouse
shortcuts) which does help with the clarity quite a bit.

When the game matures, I might take a vote to see if it is really
worth the effort for a bigger map.

I agree with you about canceling the orders window, it is a pain. I am
going to make it disappear if you attempt anything else on the map.

> Problem/Suggestion:
> Most Diplomacy games have a time limit for orders to be posted. If a player doesn't submit orders in time, all of their units are issued hold orders. There should be a time limiting mechanism in the game...either a preset limit, a 24 hour delay that kicks in once 6 orders are in, or allow a majority of the nations vote to move the game along (after a delay) if no orders are received. Of course, reminder e-mails should be sent.
>
Scott Nesin
I will be adding that as an option. A time limit can be set, and after
it passes, any player will have the option of forcing the play. So
much to do! Player turns keep getting reset, which is part of the
problem at the moment. I have a fix, but am still testing.

I appreciate the input, keep the suggestions coming!
>
> Problem/Suggestion:
> Is there a way for a bystander to witness the game?
>

There is supposed to be. It is not quite working. It would not take
much, but I am working on the convoy arrows at the moment. When it is
working I will drop you a note.>

> Problem/Suggestion:
> How about: Left click on a unit, and it brings up move orders in the window. Right click on a unit and it brings up support orders for that unit?
>
Sometimes using the mouse shortcuts is complicated when you have multiple units supporting an attack on a territory. There are times when using the box is helpful. I hadn't noticed that Rt click = hold. That's a good idea. Some filters on the orders box might help: Move orders, Support orders, convoy orders. Of course, if I zoomed in, it would probably help with that. The small map on 1280x1024 makes it hard to manage moves sometimes.

Also, I've noticed some of the colors used are hard to read - particularly the sea zones. That grey background with the colored text can create some difficult to read combinations. A darker grey would probably help.

One more thing I'm sure you're working on: You really need some way to notify the player that there are private messages from another player...flashing that player's name around the map or a pop-up window.

Keep up the good work.

I use the right mouse click to assign the hold order.

Are you using the mouse shortcuts? Those are the easiest way to assign
all orders. If have not looked at them, you should read about them in
the rules, they are well worth your while. After you master the mouse
shortcuts you will not need the box.

The available orders box is just to support mobile devices such as the
iPhone and what not. There is no right-click on touch screens. It also
is there to give newcomers to the game an idea of what a unit is
allowed to do.

That said, I can probably do something. Maybe a different background
color for support orders in the list, or a double left click to
auto-scroll to the start of support orders?

> Problem/Suggestion:
> Mouse shortcut won't allow units to offer mutual support. For instance: A burgundy Rt-click to Marseilles then A Mar rt-click to bur alternates the support and will not allow them to support each other. You can do it with the orders box.
>
> Also, the zoom level in IE7 is incompatible with the map. When I tried zooming to 150%, the position of my mouse didn't line up with the territories.
>
> Would be nice to get a warning when you've ordered a unit to convoy, but nothing to carry them. I had an A StPetersburg and tried using mouse shortcut to move into Norway. The order was submitted as a convoy, but my fleet was issued orders to move to Norwegeian Sea. That was my fault for not doublechecking the orders, but a warning (like you get in WWII when you leave a transport loaded) would help.
>
> For an example of how hard it is to use mouse orders, try moving English Channel to Belgium or StPetersburg to Norway. At high resolutions, it's nearly impossible.
>
> Am I bothering you with these comments?

You certainly are not bothering me! This is what I have asked people
to do. I am bothered by the ones who do not like something but do not
write in.

I will take a look at the zoom.

I will put warnings on orphaned convoys and such. I will probably not
throw up a warning box, but will make the background on the order
table for that row a noticable red.

First on my list is getting the convoy arrows out (it takes a while)
and then I will be free to focus on the cleanup.

Keep them coming...

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:01 pm

Orphaned orders will now have a bright red note by them in the orders box.

I also fixed the support mouse shortcuts a bit so does not kill
support orders, instead, supports the unit. So the mutual support now
works. Also, if you right mouse a unit and release over a unit with a
move order it can support, it assigns the support move order without
having to move over to the target territory as well. You can also just
right click on a unit, and release on the target territory and it will
try to hunt down a move order to support.

Please let me know if the above does not help with the two examples
you mentioned.

Still looking at how to detect the zoom so I can scale the mouse accordingly.

Thanks again,
Scott

Octopus Overlords

Diplomacy - Testers needed for new online tool

Diplomacy - Testers needed for new online tool

Re: Diplomacy - Testers needed for new online tool