Dominion (cardgame)

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Jow
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Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Jow »

I learned of this little gem over on Boardgamegeek. Buzz and hype are high, much of it from people whose gaming tastes and opinions I trust, so I thought I'd check it out. The game just arrived at online retailers this week and should be showing up in brick & mortar stores by Friday. Fortunately, since the game released earlier in Europe that it did here in the States, an implementation was created over on Brettspielwelt and so I've been able to give the game a test run. After five games with just the "basic" kingdom card configuration, I'm intrigued with the depth excited as hell to get my hands on the real deal. It takes something many of us gamers are familiar with (CCG play and deck construction) and twists it into a big ol' non-collectible ball of joy.

Instead of traditional CCG play in which gameplay starts after you've constructed your deck, gameplay in Dominion evolves WHILE building your deck. You start off with the same ten cards in your deck (a few coins and victory point cards) and your goal is to build a deck that will allow you to have the most victory points in it when one of the end-game conditions is reached.

When laid out, the "board" will look something like this (an image of the Brettspielwelt implementation of the game):

Image

You start out with a five-card hand drawn from your starting deck of ten cards and use those cards to perform actions, buy, and then "cleanup". Effectively what ends up happening is that cards you buy go into a discard pile which, when your playdeck runs out, are shuffled together to form your new playdeck. As an example, this means that any cards you buy in the first turn of the game are going to be back in your hand and ready for use on turn 3 (since each turn you play an action, buy a card, then discard your entire hand before drawing five new cards).

The real meat of the game, though, comes from the starting configuration. In the screen image above, the Kingdom card set the game is being played under is in the middle, the ten Kingdom cards including Moat, Cellar, et al. This is the "base set", or the set of cards that the developer recommends playing with on your first play. The interaction of these cards provides an IMMENSE amount of depth. For example, one strategy you could pursue is going coin-heavy, using Remodels to upgrade your high-value coins (gold) to provinces, the highest-VP building you can purchase. This tends to be a "fast" deck. Another possibility: using combinations of villages (2+ actions, +1 additional card) and markets (+1 action, +1 card, +1 buy, and +1 coin), balanced out by coin cards, to string together ridiculous combinations of cards. All the while you need to balance the amount of "treasure" (which is your "income" in this game) and the victory point cards (which are useless for anything except end-game scoring) in your hand to keep your deck humming along.

There are 24 different kingdom cards. That means the number of different possible starting configurations are nearly infinite, especially when you choose your configuration randomly. The rules, however, offer some other suggestions for configurations based on the type of game you'd like to play. WAnt a game where money abounds? Try the "Big Money" setup, using Adventurer, Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Chapel, Feast, Laboratory, Market, Mine, Moneylender, and Throne Room. Due to the "race" nature of the game it can seem like it's not very interactive at times... want a more interactive approach? Try the "Interaction" setup - Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Council Room, Festival, Library, Militia, Moat, Spy, Thief, and Village.

If anyone's interested in checking this out on Brettspielwelt I'd be glad to show you how to play.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by lch »

I've played the game on BSW, failed to find time for it in Essen (otherwise I'd have bought it there). It's a very good game with quite interesting concepts. The BSW implementation is very good. Unfortunately, that "IMMENSE amount of depth" is reduced to a quite limited number of working strategies in the actual game. What works best is to draw and play as many cards as possible, so usually Villages, Markets, Festivals, Libraries and so on are the cards that are being bought the most. You'll want to thin out your deck of copper ASAP, too, so you'll actually be happy that an enemy Thief is taking those out of your deck. When you're able to draw half of your deck to the entire deck within one turn with that +X action +X cards combo that you set up, then you can buy anything you want - silver, gold, provinces, or remaining action cards from piles about to run out to make the game end soon. So while it looks that the game really offers you a lot of different ways of playing a game, it's actually usually a race for the same cards by all the players. But the concepts, like I said before, are quite smart and interesting. At least play it online, in any case.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Jow »

I don't have enough experience to be able to comment on this definitively one way or the other, but I asked that question of the guy who introduced me to the game, specifically if certain strats are so strong that it makes anything else nonviable. After 30 games or so his gut feeling was that that's not really the case. People seem to currently be in love with villages, for example, but from what I'm gathering a lot of folks that depend on them heavily fail to develop their decks enough in other areas to be able to support them. In particular, villages and markets, while great, still depend on having enough treasure to DO something with them.

Regardless, I'm hoping I'll find it to be less limiting than what you've experienced so far.
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lch
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by lch »

Jow wrote:I don't have enough experience to be able to comment on this definitively one way or the other, but I asked that question of the guy who introduced me to the game, specifically if certain strats are so strong that it makes anything else nonviable. After 30 games or so his gut feeling was that that's not really the case.
It depends on the crowd you're playing with, I guess. If you play with people that know this can be abused, there isn't that much room for alternatives. Of course, this all depends on what cards you start with. The longest game I had was one where you didn't have any +action cards. Unfortunately it was quite boring and we abandoned it before it was over after playing two to three times as long as usual, too. It was quite obvious who'd win.
Jow wrote:In particular, villages and markets, while great, still depend on having enough treasure to DO something with them.
No, that's just the thing. You'd actually want to thin out your copper ASAP so that it doesn't stop your combo. The action cards you play, either markets or additional action cards with festivals, usually generate enough money on their own. All you want is to be able to combo through your entire deck every turn. We had a case once where there were no +action/+card action cards, so people combined +action cards like the festival with +card action cards like the moat. Of course there's a little more to it, for example it makes sense to get a witch early to put curses into other people's decks or to get a moneychanger or remodel to get the copper out of your deck. But as I said, unfortunately this strategy is just so dominant that you're ill advised to try any other funny stuff if somebody in the group is using it.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

Sounds right up my alley. I'd been looking for something to spend a birthday gift card from Fun Again Games that I'd been holding on to. After reading the glowing reviews on boardgamegeek.com, I went ahead and ordered it. Apparently it's in stock so I hope to have it next week.

Thanks for the heads up!
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Jow »

Sure enough. Let me know if you think of it (and if you might be interested in running a game or three on BSW). I've only played once since buying it - it certainly is nice having BSW to do all the card cleanup and shuffling for you. :)
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

Thanks, according to fedex tracking, I should have it today!

i've never used Brettspielwelt before. i'll have to check it out.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Jow »

er, let me know what you think "of" it. doy.

BSW: interface is... arcane and funky but if you can figure out how to get into games you'll be okay. Also, just a warning: if you're running Vista, don't install BSW to Program Files or you'll have problems.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

Got the game just now. Looking forward to giving it a whirl next weekend!
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

Update: Played last saturday with a few guys from OO. I really like it. The only downside is that there really is no way to directly affect one other player in the game. All the negative effect cards read "Everyone" instead of "player of your choice".

Beyond that, I had a lot of fun. Thanks again for bringing this little gem to my attention!
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Zarathud »

It's all about the card draw. While playing against hepcat, I was able to get ridiculous chains of 10+ card combos running because I kept playing + X draw / + X events . It was enormously satisfying.

Still, I think the mechanic balanced out because my deck didn't have as much events/money. A few critical cards being pulled regularly would be able to keep pace, so it worked out in the long run.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by lch »

Zarathud wrote:It's all about the card draw. While playing against hepcat, I was able to get ridiculous chains of 10+ card combos running because I kept playing + X draw / + X events . It was enormously satisfying.

Still, I think the mechanic balanced out because my deck didn't have as much events/money. A few critical cards being pulled regularly would be able to keep pace, so it worked out in the long run.
So you can confirm the same things that I wrote about before. Have you read my posts before playing? ;)

Yes, in order not to stop the combo, you want your deck thinned out as much as possible. Hence it's a viable idea to take a witch early on to place curses into other players' decks - not that much to give them negative victory points, but first and foremost to make them draw those cards and thus stop their combos.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

Unfortunately, we were playing with the starter kingdom card set as suggested for first time players. i.e. no witchie poo.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

hepcat wrote:Unfortunately, we were playing with the starter kingdom card set as suggested for first time players. i.e. no witchie poo.
I think the potential for wildly different games is there beyond the starter set.

Plus the result of the fearsome 10x combo often turned out to be much less impressive than the actual play.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

I read an article recently that stated the developers were sitting on a ton of expansion cards for the game. I'm hoping some of them allow a player to attack the combo plays directly and/or individual players based on their hand.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Zarathud »

Counterspell!
Ich wrote:So you can confirm the same things that I wrote about before. Have you read my posts before playing?
I've learned the benefit of card advantage from many games of Magic The Gathering.

I think the game really creates a trade-off between card drawing and thinning the deck at the same time. I don't think it's viable to do both strategies, because another player should see what you're doing and end the game before you've finished.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Jow »

huh, nice. You been playing much?
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

Jow wrote:huh, nice. You been playing much?
We got about 3 games in on the day after Thansgiving (Zarathud and a couple of his friends, as well as Seppe). Plus, I played a mini-marathon of about 4 or 5 games with Seppe a few days before Thanksgiving. Like the article I linked to says, it takes about a dozen or so games before the strategies start kicking in.

But I still love it. In fact, I just ordered a copy for a friend for a Christmas present. :wink:
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Chaz »

What's the average length of a game? I wouldn't mind having a new lunch time game at work. We've played Race for the Galaxy in the past, but those usually go at least 45 minutes, which is pushing our half hour lunch a bit.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Jow »

You won't get half hour games until you've played a handful of times and get the mechanics. When I'm playing with new sets or cards I haven't played with yet (which is still many of them) I like to take a bit longer to think about what I'm doing - if you're that sort of player I don't think you're gonna be pulling the half hour thing off too often either.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by lch »

On the internet site that can be seen in the OP, games take between 20 and 30 minutes on average. What's nice is that the site does all the shuffling and drawing and so on for you, I'd expect that with a physical copy of the game it'd take at least 50% longer.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

Yeah, our games run around 45 minutes to an hour per. The "30 Minutes" listed on the box obviously doesn't take into account deliberation. :wink:
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hentzau »

Just got this game from my parents for Christmas. Can't wait to try it out.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Jow »

Very cool, Hent. I'm still enjoying it but I'm getting the feeling this one won't have the legs of some of my other favorite games. The mechanic is definitely unique and interesting but despite the variety in terms of Kingdom cards the game's starting to feel like a one-trick pony.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

I got another half dozen or so games in over Christmas vacation. I still love it, but I can see Jow's point. I think they can overcome a lot of that with expansion sets, though. There's so much potential for game changing cards that a good designer could have a field day with this one.

In other news, I had a truly epic game of Battlestar Galactica. I was playing with some old friends who weren't afraid to screw each other over and it really brought out the unique aspects of the game. I honestly thought my friend's wife was the only person I could be sure was a human player during the course of the game...only to find out in the final moments that she was a cylon.

I also received Pandemic in the mail during vacation and really loved it. It's a good, fast beer and pretzel game that can change course on a dime if you don't play it with even a modicum of strategy.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by edosan »

To further derail the thread, I've been playing both Pandemic and Battlestar Galactica as well and both are awesome.

If you can get a Borders 25% off coupon (not hard if you're a member), you can probably get BSG for $30 as opposed to the $40 MSRP (which is supposed to go up to a $50 MSRP as soon as the second printing hits).
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

edosan wrote:To further derail the thread, I've been playing both Pandemic and Battlestar Galactica as well and both are awesome.

If you can get a Borders 25% off coupon (not hard if you're a member), you can probably get BSG for $30 as opposed to the $40 MSRP (which is supposed to go up to a $50 MSRP as soon as the second printing hits).
or 35 bucks from timewellspent.org if you can't get a borders' coupon.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

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I can't imagine, even at my most inebriated, hearing a bouncer offering me an hour with a stripper for only $1,400 and thinking That sounds like a reasonable idea.-Two Sheds
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

wow, usually timewellspent beats most other online retail prices. i'll have to start checking them for prices as well when i'm looking for a game.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Chaz »

My GF got my Christmas boardgame haul from Cool Stuff, and said she was happy with it. It also looks like they offer free shipping at $100 worth of board games, which is what Thoughthammer used to offer, and is awesome. I'm planning on using them for my next big order.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Jow »

I got quite a bit of gaming in over the holidays myself... played Agricola for the first time (and enjoyed it immensely)... couple games of Arkham (the last of which my buddy Derek and I tried to take on the Touring Performance of the King in Yellow WITH the Herald - it was brutal)... other random stuff like the WoW TCG, Ticket to Ride, Citadels, etc. Good times.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

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Citadels is just one of those games all gamers must carry with them at all times. :D
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Jow »

Funny enough, I just played it for the first time a few weeks ago and literally picked up my own copy a week ago. Funny how gems like that fall through the cracks. Amusingly, we played with Derek's kids and his youngest was a little frenetic and bent up some of the character cards, so now I've gotta buy myself another copy. Fun.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

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Chaz wrote:My GF got my Christmas boardgame haul from Cool Stuff, and said she was happy with it. It also looks like they offer free shipping at $100 worth of board games, which is what Thoughthammer used to offer, and is awesome. I'm planning on using them for my next big order.
I've made my last big annual orders from Cool Stuff and was very happy with them. Like Thoughthammer but without the TX sales tax. ;)
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by lch »

hepcat wrote:Citadels is just one of those games all gamers must carry with them at all times. :D
If you liked that one then I'd recommend Kingsburg. It's a little similar to Citadels, but better, IMHO. Like Citadels and Dominion and lots others, it can be played online for free on http://www.brettspielwelt.info, too. Check it out.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by hepcat »

Zarathud ran us through a game a while ago, but I got drunk and pretty much zoned out for the entire thing. I need to stay sober and give this one another try...if Zarathud's not pissed at my low tolerance for alcohol, that is.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Zarathud »

Luckily, I have a high tolerance for hepcat. But if hepcat gets that drunk again during a game night, I'm shaving his head and posting the picture. :ninja:

Kingsburg seems to be a great intermediate game that's not too complex and works for a group with a variety of interests. Still, Citadels is the favorite for how quickly it plays (and can handle an oversized group of 8!). There's a nicely designed reference sheet for the 18 characters in Citadel and a bunch of other games over here.
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

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Zarathud wrote:Luckily, I have a high tolerance for hepcat.
God bless ya, you're one of the few...
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Re: Dominion (cardgame)

Post by Butterknife »

I got this for Christmas (also got Kingsburg, Tomb, Thurn & Taxis, and Amun-Re). I only got to play one game with my wife, but it shows some promise. I'm hoping that I can get a bigger group together and give it another shot. In our game my wife sort of ignored the victory point cards, and I defeated her soundly with something like three times as many points. That doesn't bode well for long-term playability, but we'll see.
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