Octopus Overlords

Isgrimnur wrote:Portland and Orlando are the next two. Another FL team might be a hard sell.

Isgrimnur wrote:Pretty much. Went to a game this year, and it's an excellent venue. Even better than when I compared it favorably to the Great American Ballpark in Cincinnati.

Jeff V wrote:FWIW, there is no US market larger than San Diego that doesn't already have a team.

Jaymann wrote:

Jeff V wrote:FWIW, there is no US market larger than San Diego that doesn't already have a team.

It would be sweet if the Chargers moved to LA and the Raiders moved to San Diego.

Fitzy wrote:

Jaymann wrote:

Jeff V wrote:FWIW, there is no US market larger than San Diego that doesn't already have a team.

It would be sweet if the Chargers moved to LA and the Raiders moved to San Diego.

And then the Raiders could change their name to the Chargers and the Chargers could change their name to the Raiders!

Subsequent legal actions by the city of Cleveland and Browns season ticket holders led to a compromise that saw the Browns history, records, and intellectual property remain in Cleveland, while Modell was permitted to move to Baltimore and establish the Baltimore Ravens, who are officially regarded as a 1996 expansion team.

Isgrimnur wrote:Cleveland

Subsequent legal actions by the city of Cleveland and Browns season ticket holders led to a compromise that saw the Browns history, records, and intellectual property remain in Cleveland, while Modell was permitted to move to Baltimore and establish the Baltimore Ravens, who are officially regarded as a 1996 expansion team.

With the clock ticking, Oakland Mayor Libby Schaaf is betting big that a combination of $600 million in private money from Ronnie Lott’s investment group, $200 million in public money and an equal amount from the National Football League will be enough to keep the stadium-hungry Raiders from moving to Las Vegas.

A bill that would have committed $225 million in public funds—part coming from state coffers and part from the city of Tempe—does not appear to have enough votes to pass the state legislature, but lawmakers could still resurrect the stadium deal as part of the budget plan. The Arizona Republic reported this week that Senate President Steve Yarbrough (R-Chandler) says it's "unlikely" the legislature would approve the stadium in the budget bill, but, frankly, that's not good enough, because the whole idea should be rejected out of hand. There is no good argument for building the Coyotes another new stadium after they've failed to attract much interest from fans in Phoenix or Glendale, where they've played since 2003.

stessier wrote:Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.

Moliere wrote:Arizona’s Terrible Hockey Team Wants a Third Taxpayer Funded Stadium Since 1996

A bill that would have committed $225 million in public funds—part coming from state coffers and part from the city of Tempe—does not appear to have enough votes to pass the state legislature, but lawmakers could still resurrect the stadium deal as part of the budget plan. The Arizona Republic reported this week that Senate President Steve Yarbrough (R-Chandler) says it's "unlikely" the legislature would approve the stadium in the budget bill, but, frankly, that's not good enough, because the whole idea should be rejected out of hand. There is no good argument for building the Coyotes another new stadium after they've failed to attract much interest from fans in Phoenix or Glendale, where they've played since 2003.

Jeff V wrote:They need to go back to the sport's roots and play outside. That's a popular thing now, right?

Grifman wrote:

Jeff V wrote:They need to go back to the sport's roots and play outside. That's a popular thing now, right?

Outside hockey in Arizona?

stessier wrote:Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.

noxiousdog wrote:

stessier wrote:Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.

There's a lot of gray area in there. Local sports teams have a significant entertainment and pride value for a locale. We can argue about the relative value of sports, museums, parks, or any other civic entertainment, but the fact remains that a large portion of the populace cares about sports.

I think it's too much as well, but there's certainly room for compromise.

Moliere wrote:

noxiousdog wrote:

stessier wrote:Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.

There's a lot of gray area in there. Local sports teams have a significant entertainment and pride value for a locale. We can argue about the relative value of sports, museums, parks, or any other civic entertainment, but the fact remains that a large portion of the populace cares about sports.

I think it's too much as well, but there's certainly room for compromise.

Because a few thousand people care whether a particular team wins their game the rest of us need to have hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue pissed away? We're talking about tax subsidies for Billionaires to own a team full of Millionaires to play a game.

Remus West wrote:There is also a huge economic impact on businesses in the community to consider. That is really what drives these things. The threat by the teams to take their economic booms elsewhere.

Moliere wrote:

Remus West wrote:There is also a huge economic impact on businesses in the community to consider. That is really what drives these things. The threat by the teams to take their economic booms elsewhere.

Have you not read all the previous articles? There is no economic boom. Pro teams are a net negative economic impact.

Moliere wrote:

noxiousdog wrote:

stessier wrote:Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.

There's a lot of gray area in there. Local sports teams have a significant entertainment and pride value for a locale. We can argue about the relative value of sports, museums, parks, or any other civic entertainment, but the fact remains that a large portion of the populace cares about sports.

I think it's too much as well, but there's certainly room for compromise.

Because a few thousand people care whether a particular team wins their game the rest of us need to have hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue pissed away? We're talking about tax subsidies for Billionaires to own a team full of Millionaires to play a game.

noxiousdog wrote:Not a few thousand. A few hundred thousand if not millions. The annual attendance at a pro baseball stadium is approximately 2 million. That doesn't count the number of people who follow casually including watching on TV or listening to broadcasts. Football television broadcasts for the Texans last year was over 900,000 per week. Over free TV. The Houston Museum of Natural Science averages 2 million visitors per year. The Houston Zoo is 2.5 million per year.

Moliere wrote:

noxiousdog wrote:Not a few thousand. A few hundred thousand if not millions. The annual attendance at a pro baseball stadium is approximately 2 million. That doesn't count the number of people who follow casually including watching on TV or listening to broadcasts. Football television broadcasts for the Texans last year was over 900,000 per week. Over free TV. The Houston Museum of Natural Science averages 2 million visitors per year. The Houston Zoo is 2.5 million per year.

I don't want my tax money subsidizing Billionaires so they can own a team full of Millionaires to play a game. If they can't find enough revenue via tickets, advertising, merchandise, and TV broadcasting then they shouldn't be in business.

Remus West wrote:A little sarcasm. Having the teams around does present the possibility for improvement in the areas of the stadiums though and losing them certainly creates blight - look at Tiger stadium, the team didn't even leave the city, or the Silverdome - ugh.

noxiousdog wrote:
You get a vote like everyone else (assuming it's in your neck of the woods).

hitbyambulance wrote:

noxiousdog wrote:
You get a vote like everyone else (assuming it's in your neck of the woods).

assuming the stadium referendum actually goes to a vote...

my experience with these is they tend not to.

The Detroit Pistons are one step closer to playing downtown again.

Despite backlash from some residents, Detroit city council has approved $34.5 million in bonds so the Pistons can move into the Little Caesars Arena downtown.

Some Detroiters are unhappy with the deal because the bonds are taxpayer funded with money originally intended for schools and parks.

Moliere wrote:Detroit City Council approves $34.5 million in bonds for Detroit Pistons to move into new arena

The Detroit Pistons are one step closer to playing downtown again.

Despite backlash from some residents, Detroit city council has approved $34.5 million in bonds so the Pistons can move into the Little Caesars Arena downtown.

Some Detroiters are unhappy with the deal because the bonds are taxpayer funded with money originally intended for schools and parks.

Millionaire athletes > school children

gbasden wrote:

Moliere wrote:Detroit City Council approves $34.5 million in bonds for Detroit Pistons to move into new arena

Millionaire athletes > school children

This is just one of the reasons I hate sports.

em2nought wrote:

gbasden wrote:

Moliere wrote:Detroit City Council approves $34.5 million in bonds for Detroit Pistons to move into new arena

Millionaire athletes > school children

This is just one of the reasons I hate sports.

Apparently, we can agree on something.

After two decades of warring over the fundamental question of whether government should help finance pro-sports enterprises, Seattle now finds itself in the polar-opposite position: The billionaires are fighting to do business with us.

We have one billionaire group offering to rebuild the old Key­Arena for $600 million of its own money, including $40 million in transportation fixes. We have another billionaire group offering a privately financed $600 million Sodo arena, plus the sweetener of a $90 million conversion of KeyArena into two music theaters.

Both proposals involve some public subsidy in the form of foregone taxes. But there are no bonds, no borrowing, no 30 years of taxes to pay it all back.

It’s such a remarkable turnabout that Seattle is now seen as a national model for how to beat the pro-sports vampires at their own game, says Neil deMause, author of the book “Field of Schemes: How the Great Stadium Swindle Turns Public Money into Private Profit.”

“What did Seattle do, and how can my city get some of that backbone?” daMause, of New York, wrote in a recent article at Deadspin. It was titled: “Want to Avoid Getting Screwed on Arena Deals? Look to Seattle.”