F*** me, Ray Bradbury (Burning the Quran)

[silverjon]

All moderates need to stand together in solidarity against the crazies of this world, Al Qaeda on one side, and Westboro Baptist Church on the other.

And to be overt about it, Pastor Whatshisnuts wanted to say FU to all of Islam. From his perspective, they all belong to the wrong religion.

Loud and crazy is entirely too good at dominating the press, because they are loud and crazy and conducive to infotainment.

[msduncan]

Yes, you and I agree that the Koran is just a book like any other. It means nothing particularly special to us. But earlier you complained about some Islamists burning the U.S. flag. Burning the Koran is, for them, like burning the flag and the Bible and Shakespeare all at the same time. The symbolic weight is massive.

You keep using that example, but I was using the flag burning as an example of the fact that they burn it all the time but you don't see me jumping up and down in the streets calling for the killing of all Muslims. You don't see me burning Mosques, burning Korans, and calling for holy wars in response.

I look at the flag burning, think to myself 'screw you guys then', and then move on with my life. I don't say OMFGWTF WE MUST BOMB THEM BECAUSE THEY BURNED A FLAG!!!!!! HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY WARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!


And the moderates among them stay deafeningly quiet in the face of all of this. When they DO get on TV, they advise us to appease. Well excuse the hell out of me... it's not the rest of humanity's job to drag these extremist bastards into the 21st century -- it's MUSLIMS' job to drag themselves and the rest of the extremists into the 21st century by demanding change.

Instead, they are busy trying to impose their laws unlawfully over the top of Western laws (see Britain and France).

[Unagi]

...because some stupid Americans think it is brave to burn a stupid book in the safety of US.

No. Victoria, you don't realize that we Americans see this man as AFRAID. Not as Brave. His actions are so obviously born of fear.

[dbt1949]

I guess it is very brave to provoke extremist muslims in the safety of USA. Next time, try to do it outside US.

You mean like the Muslims do in Muslim country? I have yet to hear of any of them burning a flag in the U.S.

I'm with MSD on this one.

[cheeba]

...because some stupid Americans think it is brave to burn a stupid book in the safety of US.

No. Victoria, you don't realize that we Americans see this man as AFRAID. Not as Brave. His actions are so obviously born of fear.

I see it as neither. Frankly, it kinda makes sense to me, especially as a non-religious type who hates pretty much all religions. I mean isn't it a tenet of nearly every religion out there that their religion is right and other religions are wrong? The Pope can respect Buddha all he wants, for example, but he still believes buddhists are all going straight to hell. So to my non-religious mind it seems perfectly logical that a baptist (or whatever he is) would burn a Koran.

[msduncan]

...because some stupid Americans think it is brave to burn a stupid book in the safety of US.

No. Victoria, you don't realize that we Americans see this man as AFRAID. Not as Brave. His actions are so obviously born of fear.

While I don't find him brave, per say.... I do not find him afraid either.

Please don't speak for all of us when clearly there is a good segment of the population that doesn't agree with you.

[Mr. Fed]

I don't think he's afraid. I think he's an attention whore.

[hepcat]

When a drunken bus driver mows down people, I immediately blame the liquor company that made the booze he had on him.

...and with that, I'm done with the bad metaphors for the week.

Apparently you missed the sarcasm. For the posts, I read that VR had more of an issue with Stupid Americans than Extremists.

I was actually agreeing with you, Defiant. My rolly eyes were directed at Victoria Principal or whatever his/her name is.

I don't think he's afraid. I think he's an attention whore.

the fact that he tossed his moral stand out of the window the moment he got booked on the Today show tends to push me towards that conclusion. this guy wasn't making a statement, he just figured out a way to hold up a bigger sign that says "HEY, LOOK AT ME!" than the next guy.

...ah crap, another stupid metaphor.

[Mr. Fed]

By the way:

I think there's actually an interesting moral conundrum buried here under this pastor's creepy attention-whoring: what moral responsibility, if any, does one have to refrain from conduct that will, without justification, lead to third party X wronging third party Y?

A different example: say an American is arrested and tried by a nasty third-world country for some offense. There are efforts underway to convince the country to give a lenient sentence. A reporter has a story about how utterly corrupt the country's judicial system is, and how mistreated the American is. If the reporter runs the story, it is likely that the country will execute the American out of indignation and anger. It's not right -- there's no moral justification for the country to do so -- but they'll do it. Is there any moral component to the reporter's decision whether or not to run the story?

[That example is different from this one in any number of important ways, of course, but it goes towards the core question.]

[Unagi]

...because some stupid Americans think it is brave to burn a stupid book in the safety of US.

No. Victoria, you don't realize that we Americans see this man as AFRAID. Not as Brave. His actions are so obviously born of fear.

While I don't find him brave, per say.... I do not find him afraid either.

Please don't speak for all of us when clearly there is a good segment of the population that doesn't agree with you.

Sorry.
I thought I was extended everyone a favor by saying that everyone thinks like me.

(kidding)

That's fine. I think it was Fear - I think most of Religion is born in the garden of Fear.

I see it as neither. Frankly, it kinda makes sense to me, especially as a non-religious type who hates pretty much all religions. I mean isn't it a tenet of nearly every religion out there that their religion is right and other religions are wrong? The Pope can respect Buddha all he wants, for example, but he still believes buddhists are all going straight to hell. So to my non-religious mind it seems perfectly logical that a baptist (or whatever he is) would burn a Koran.

I hear ya. It wasn't fear, it was simply "religion".

[Carpet_pissr]

Maybe not so much fear as just common ignorance and dumbassery. That there is a difference between the vast majority of Muslims and the tiny minority of extremists that are Muslim. This idiot just lumps them together, ironically, just like he himself will be lumped together with all Christians in the cries of Muslim extremists.

The crazy thing is that this guy has a "congregation" of FIFTY (50) people! Why the hell is this news again?

[Arcanis]

Maybe not so much fear as just common ignorance and dumbassery. That there is a difference between the vast majority of Muslims and the tiny minority of extremists that are Muslim. This idiot just lumps them together, ironically, just like he himself will be lumped together with all Christians in the cries of Muslim extremists.

The crazy thing is that this guy has a "congregation" of FIFTY (50) people! Why the hell is this news again?

Its news because it pissed off the people who resolve most disputes with stones, beheading, or explosive vests. It also pissed off a significant number of "normal" people in the largest religion in the world. All that being said none of those pissed off people would have heard about it if the media wouldn't have made a big deal over some prick flaunting his own stupidity.

[Isgrimnur]

Stop covering this like they stopped showing people running out onto the field during sporting events.

[Kraken]

Is there any moral component to the reporter's decision whether or not to run the story?

That decision will likely go all the way up to the publisher. Presumably the story was reported and fact-checked for months, as are most investigative pieces, and publication is not time-sensitive (except inasmuch as it coincides with the show trial). Prudence would indicate holding the story until the trial is complete; in fact, its outcome would be an important addendum to the story.

Now it's also possible that the publisher has an agenda of his own; political exposes often run during campaigns explicitly to influence voters, for example.

Sure there's a moral component to almost any controversial story where the public's right to know, the publisher's agenda, and the subject's fate intersect.

[cheeba]

Maybe not so much fear as just common ignorance and dumbassery. That there is a difference between the vast majority of Muslims and the tiny minority of extremists that are Muslim. This idiot just lumps them together, ironically, just like he himself will be lumped together with all Christians in the cries of Muslim extremists.

Why is that ironic? And are you so sure it's just a tiny minority of extremists and there's not a bunch of huge ass problems with islam? I mean there's a majority of muslims who believe that 9/11 was an act committed either by the US or Israel.

[AWS260]

Dirty hippie stops Koran burning.

“I snuck up behind him and took his Koran,” Isom chuckles in the news report below. “He said something about burning the Koran. I was like, ‘Dude, you HAVE no Koran,’ and I took off.’”

[Defiant]

Apparently you missed the sarcasm. For the posts, I read that VR had more of an issue with Stupid Americans than Extremists.

I was actually agreeing with you, Defiant. My rolly eyes were directed at Victoria Principal or whatever his/her name is.

Apparently I missed the Sarcasm.

[SpaceLord]

Dirty hippie stops Koran burning.

“I snuck up behind him and took his Koran,” Isom chuckles in the news report below. “He said something about burning the Koran. I was like, ‘Dude, you HAVE no Koran,’ and I took off.’”

That. Was. Awesome.

[Carpet_pissr]

Dirty hippie stops Koran burning.

“I snuck up behind him and took his Koran,” Isom chuckles in the news report below. “He said something about burning the Koran. I was like, ‘Dude, you HAVE no Koran,’ and I took off.’”

That. Was. Awesome.

Agree...laughed out loud quite a bit at that one.

[Carpet_pissr]

there's a majority of muslims who believe that 9/11 was an act committed either by the US or Israel.

Source?

[cheeba]

there's a majority of muslims who believe that 9/11 was an act committed either by the US or Israel.

Source?

CBS
Pew Research Center (pdf file, page 4) (Very interesting report, particularly troubling and puzzling are British muslims who seem to trend towards the extremist).

[Carpet_pissr]

there's a majority of muslims who believe that 9/11 was an act committed either by the US or Israel.

Source?

CBS
Pew Research Center (pdf file, page 4) (Very interesting report, particularly troubling and puzzling are British muslims who seem to trend towards the extremist).

Wow. Wonder what the results would be if that same poll were done today?

[cheeba]

Note that the CBS article was referring to a Gallup Poll in 2002 (I can't find a link to the actual poll, but here's a USA Today article about the same thing) while the Pew Research Center study was done in 2006.

It's unlikely opinions have changed much today .

[Holman]

On the idea that reporters should just ignore provocative events:

We're way past the time when reporters were a gateway to events like these. What determines visibility here isn't some editor's decision to give it media coverage; it's whether the event resonates enough to build its own internet momentum. Think of all the things you've ever seen because they "went viral." How many of them reached you through the news media?

Terry Jones has a congregation of fifty people, but he also has a website and the idiocy to push things as far as they can go. In internet terms, he's a mogul.

[msduncan]

I don't think he's afraid. I think he's an attention whore.

/agree

But like I said.... I'm sick and tired of walking on eggshells for Islam. Radicals know of only two tactics: threats and murder. If you back down, they win. If you oppose them, they kill whether you are Western or one of their own.

Meanwhile, the moderate muslims sit silently and let it happen. More than that, as indicated by the poll linked here, they often assume that the radicals are right even if (?) they (weakly or passively) disagree with their tactics.

[LordMortis]

I don't think he's afraid. I think he's an attention whore.

/agree

But like I said.... I'm sick and tired of walking on eggshells for Islam. Radicals know of only two tactics: threats and murder. If you back down, they win. If you oppose them, they kill whether you are Western or one of their own.

Meanwhile, the moderate muslims sit silently and let it happen. More than that, as indicated by the poll linked here, they often assume that the radicals are right even if (?) they (weakly or passively) disagree with their tactics.

Awesome. You could substitute Christianity in there and it would work just as well.

But wait Christian radicals don't threaten and murder. They don't talk about reduce middle east to glass or blow up abortion clinics or federal buildings or railroads or burn the Koran and it was so so far in our past where they beat up gays and segregated schools.

Though, I must say I do agree with you to a point. I won't walk on eggshells for Islam or Christians or Jews or any of that. I just won't hold the actions of radicals against everyone with in the same culture of religion.

[El Guapo]

I don't think he's afraid. I think he's an attention whore.

/agree

But like I said.... I'm sick and tired of walking on eggshells for Islam. Radicals know of only two tactics: threats and murder. If you back down, they win. If you oppose them, they kill whether you are Western or one of their own.

Meanwhile, the moderate muslims sit silently and let it happen. More than that, as indicated by the poll linked here, they often assume that the radicals are right even if (?) they (weakly or passively) disagree with their tactics.

I don't necessarily disagree, but how would burning Qurans help against extremist Islamist radicals? Burning Qurans is hardly targeted towards the radicals - it's the holy book of all Muslims, not just Al Qaeda.

[Defiant]

That "brave man" has lost his job.

[Defiant]

I don't think he's afraid. I think he's an attention whore.

/agree

But like I said.... I'm sick and tired of walking on eggshells for Islam. Radicals know of only two tactics: threats and murder. If you back down, they win. If you oppose them, they kill whether you are Western or one of their own.

Meanwhile, the moderate muslims sit silently and let it happen. More than that, as indicated by the poll linked here, they often assume that the radicals are right even if (?) they (weakly or passively) disagree with their tactics.

I don't necessarily disagree, but how would burning Qurans help against extremist Islamist radicals?

Did he say it would?

[msduncan]

I don't think he's afraid. I think he's an attention whore.

/agree

But like I said.... I'm sick and tired of walking on eggshells for Islam. Radicals know of only two tactics: threats and murder. If you back down, they win. If you oppose them, they kill whether you are Western or one of their own.

Meanwhile, the moderate muslims sit silently and let it happen. More than that, as indicated by the poll linked here, they often assume that the radicals are right even if (?) they (weakly or passively) disagree with their tactics.

Awesome. You could substitute Christianity in there and it would work just as well.

But wait Christian radicals don't threaten and murder. They don't talk about reduce middle east to glass or blow up abortion clinics or federal buildings or railroads or burn the Koran and it was so so far in our past where they beat up gays and segregated schools.

Though, I must say I do agree with you to a point. I won't walk on eggshells for Islam or Christians or Jews or any of that. I just won't hold the actions of radicals against everyone with in the same culture of religion.

Wasn't there widespread condemnation of the abortion bombings/shootings? In addition, a Christian dominated government/police force/community/city brought the offenders to justice along with roundly condemning the acts.

[Kraken]

I don't think he's afraid. I think he's an attention whore.

/agree

But like I said.... I'm sick and tired of walking on eggshells for Islam. Radicals know of only two tactics: threats and murder. If you back down, they win. If you oppose them, they kill whether you are Western or one of their own.

Meanwhile, the moderate muslims sit silently and let it happen. More than that, as indicated by the poll linked here, they often assume that the radicals are right even if (?) they (weakly or passively) disagree with their tactics.

I agree with msd, which is not an everyday occurrence. You might enjoy this column from today's Globe.

3. In the effort to get Jones to back down, great stress was laid on the danger of a backlash by Muslim fanatics. General David Petraeus warned that “images of the burning of a Koran would undoubtedly be used by extremists in Afghanistan . . . to inflame public opinion and incite violence.’’ Defense Secretary Robert Gates phoned Jones to express “grave concern’’ that a Koran-burning could put American personnel at risk. The president himself called it “a way of endangering our troops — our sons and daughters, fathers and mothers, husbands and wives who are sacrificing for us to keep us safe.’’

But since when do US officials tell Americans or anyone else not to do something because unhinged radicals won’t like it? Jihadist violence was erupting long before Jones appeared on the scene. There is no end to the pretexts used by Islamist extremists “to inflame public opinion and incite violence.’’ Danish cartoons, Iraqi elections, a papal lecture, a beauty pageant, even a teddy bear named “Muhammad’’ — Muslim militants have raged, sometimes lethally, against them all. Osama bin Laden did not declare war on the United States because of a publicity-seeker’s antics in Florida.

Jones’s threat to burn the Koran was ugly and offensive. It deserved to be reviled as an affront to civility, to American values, and to the millions of good Muslims who stand with us in the war against the radicals. But it is never right for the president or his aides to pressure US citizens into silencing themselves or stifling their liberties in order to conciliate violent zealots. If the years since 9/11 have taught us anything, it is that jihadists must be resisted, not appeased.

[Isgrimnur]

That "brave man" has lost his job.

I would be interested what part of the state ethics guidelines that they have cited him as violating, as I can't find anything specific to the situation in the overall state guidelines, nor can I find something specific to the Transit Department.

[msduncan]

I don't think he's afraid. I think he's an attention whore.

/agree

But like I said.... I'm sick and tired of walking on eggshells for Islam. Radicals know of only two tactics: threats and murder. If you back down, they win. If you oppose them, they kill whether you are Western or one of their own.

Meanwhile, the moderate muslims sit silently and let it happen. More than that, as indicated by the poll linked here, they often assume that the radicals are right even if (?) they (weakly or passively) disagree with their tactics.

I don't necessarily disagree, but how would burning Qurans help against extremist Islamist radicals? Burning Qurans is hardly targeted towards the radicals - it's the holy book of all Muslims, not just Al Qaeda.

It doesn't of course. But my issue is with the assertion by everyone from Obama, the FBI to Sarah Palin that we should somehow appease those that threaten us by pressuring the offenders NOT burn the book.

[msduncan]

That "brave man" has lost his job.

I would be interested what part of the state ethics guidelines that they have cited him as violating, as I can't find anything specific to the situation in the overall state guidelines, nor can I find something specific to the Transit Department.

I think they just made this an issue that will be with us for a lot longer by firing him. If he chooses to sue, then it will move into the court system.

[Isgrimnur]

The intent was not to appease those who threaten us, it was to attempt to avoid offending those who otherwise might have some non-murderous feelings toward us and be willing to work with us.

It's just a bad idea to go around burning the holy book of any large group that exists in sufficient numbers that you will have to deal with them. Do you think that not speaking out against this is going to make one whit of difference to the extremists? It's not. But it might make a difference when we go deal with Oman and Saudi Arabia for the things that we want from them.

Haters gonna hate, but we can go out of our way to try and stop creating more of them.

[Defiant]

That "brave man" has lost his job.

I would be interested what part of the state ethics guidelines that they have cited him as violating, as I can't find anything specific to the situation in the overall state guidelines, nor can I find something specific to the Transit Department.

It may be that NJ Transit has it's own guidelines. But even if there is, I'm more than a little disturbed that he got fired for something that neither affects his job performance nor is related to his job. It wasn't as if he wore his uniform at the time.

[Isgrimnur]

If there was a policy in place that was part of a negotiated agreement with his labor union, then I have no problem with it being enforced. Now if they want to challenge the legality of that stricture in court, then I also have no problems with that.

While the government can not enforce strictures on its citizens that are unethical but not illegal, having the government as an employer does not afford the same protections. My employer, public or private, certainly can pass reasonable restrictions on what I do, even in my off time. If I start passing trade secrets to random people on the street on the weekends, my employer still has rights against me performing said actions and take internal sanctions against me.

In short, this is a case for employment law, not First Amendment grounds.

[dbt1949]

The ironic thing is that those Muslims protesting and demonstrating, burning US flags and shouting death to the US probably don't think of themselves as extremists.
It makes you wonder how much of the Muslim population agrees with them?

[Smoove_B]

In short, this is a case for employment law, not First Amendment grounds.

NJ is an "at will" employment state. If anything NJ Transit said too much when they fired him:

The agency's statement said Fenton was dismissed after he "violated his trust as a state employee."

He should have come to work on Monday and been told "Your services are no longer required." -- end of story.

It's always awesome to see a local paper make national news.

[Isgrimnur]

Is NJ Transit not under some sort of collective bargaining? I would have figured that every state employee in New Jersey would be under some sort of union that would supercede an at-will work status.

Even so, the joys of at-will: We can fire you for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason, as long as it's not an illegal reason.