Please delete this thread

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:29 am

LOL - I was just reading this post on Neverwinter Vault and it made me laugh.

Not Buying Premium modules until a better drm solution is found

I would like to see an answer to valar1's question. This is mostly what is keeping me from buying the modules. Having an online check each time I want to play is annoying, but what I can't live with is a game becoming unplayable in a few years simply because whatever server that does the check isn't running any more. If this has been answered before could you point me in the right direction?
We've said on several occasions that, if something permanent were to happen to the master server (site shutdown, big mahjong tournament, EPA shutting it down and releasing all the ghosts we'd trapped in there, Blizzard invading our offices, company vacation to Mars, BioWare office transforming into a giant robot to repel the Zentraedi, whatever), we would do what we could to ensure that the Premium NWN Modules would still be playable. Hope that helps.

Aliasbuck · Post by **Aliasbuck** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:25 pm

EPA shutting it down and releasing all the ghosts we'd trapped in there

Cats and Dogs! Living together! Mass Hysteria!

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:15 pm

Blank your mind..dont think about anything!

Sepiche · Post by **Sepiche** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:35 pm

Okay... who brought the dog?

s

Man I love that movie.

Massena · Post by **Massena** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:11 pm

"Ya lie dags, dontcha?"

...

"Dags. Dags!"

"Oh, dogs. Sure, I like dags."

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:53 pm

I also heart Bioware. Bioware and Blizzard are the only two studios I will buy games from on release day, sight unseen. They keep my PC gaming alive.

nomorals · Post by **nomorals** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:21 am

I also heart Bioware. Bioware and Blizzard are the only two studios I will buy games from on release day, sight unseen. They keep my PC gaming alive

Really?

I wait until at least one patch has been released for bioware games.

caesarbear · Post by **caesarbear** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:37 pm

Unless you own stock in the company, why would anyone buy on release day without an reviews?

Stitch · Post by **Stitch** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:56 pm

Because Bioware has yet to release a game that is anything less than excellent.

ChrisGwinn · Post by **ChrisGwinn** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:34 pm

caesarbear wrote:Unless you own stock in the company, why would anyone buy on release day without an reviews?

The same reason that there are musicians whose music I'll buy unheard or authors who I'll buy without reviews - there are people who consistently produce creative works that I enjoy, and I'd like to support them.

quantum · Post by **quantum** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:06 pm

Stitch wrote:Because Bioware has yet to release a game that is anything less than excellent.

Redfive · Post by **Redfive** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:31 pm

quantum wrote:
Stitch wrote:Because Bioware has yet to release a game that is anything less than excellent.

Kind of a neutral observer here but, out of curiosity, what would you consider to be sub-par that they have released?

FFG909 · Post by **FFG909** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:05 pm

DRM is a huge problem, and this is one of the reasons.. If Trymedia were to "Suddenly" shut down, my sons would have 3 less games to play. Its already a PITA to call Trymedia each time I format the hard drives.

This is why I refuse to download games. I have several PC's here, and depending on the day, might be gaming on a different one. I should be allowed to install say 2-3 of them and not be restricted by DRM. I'm certainly NOT buying 3 licenses for the same game.

DRM has a ways to go before they get it right.

Hamsterball_Z · Post by **Hamsterball_Z** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:23 pm

DRM??? Wrong thread FFG?

quantum · Post by **quantum** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:47 pm

Redfive wrote:
quantum wrote:
Stitch wrote:Because Bioware has yet to release a game that is anything less than excellent.

Kind of a neutral observer here but, out of curiosity, what would you consider to be sub-par that they have released?

The statement wasn't "sub-par." It was "sub-excellent."

I'd classify any Bioware game after BG2 as sub-excellent.

NWN was sub-par to boot. The expansions for it were both average.

KOTOR was above average, but excellent? No game can be excellent if it's piggybacking on one of the worst RPG engines for combat in recent memory, the Aurora engine.

Dhruin · Post by **Dhruin** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:49 pm

I have enjoyed every Bio game made so far to some degree or another but I definitely have my reservations, particularly with the last couple of games. For example, KotOR has some some of the least-interesting cRPG level designs I've ever seen (like levels of Taris that are merely two intersecting corridors) and the combat is pretty dull. This highlights Bio's shift away from exploration as a real gameplay element and towards more emphasis on stories that are designed to a formula (see Gavid Gaider's recent GDC speech on story development).

But I have to respect their success, discipline and continued work in the RPG genre.

caesarbear · Post by **caesarbear** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:14 am

NWN was sub-par to boot. The expansions for it were both average.

NWN is easily the best game of its kind, but for reasons other than what you expected. That's why you should never buy a game "blindly", without knowing the details first. NWN is a toolkit and multiplayer platform primarily, and a singleplayer campaign second. If you went in expecting BG, then of course you would be disappointed. To extend the musician analogy, if your favorite band released a one-off experiment in a new genre, you might not like it at all. I just can't see a good reason for not waiting at least a little before purchase.

Dhruin · Post by **Dhruin** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:50 am

People have long argued on this but the fact is that BioWare repeatedly promised a campaign equal to -- or better than -- their previous efforts. Those who followed the development carefully may have read between the lines to find the truth but BioWare certainly sold the SP campaign with gusto. And nearly all of the reviews were glowing - I remember Greg Kasavin's GameSpot review was one of the first at 9.2/10 with lots of praise for the "epic" campaign.

I played online with the same group for a year and a half, so it turned out to be amazing value for me, but I first purchased it for the SP campaign and was disappointed both with the story and the mechanics, as were a lot of others.

quantum · Post by **quantum** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:54 pm

caesarbear wrote:If you went in expecting BG, then of course you would be disappointed.

Please. Bioware's failing was not my problem. Stop trying to shift the blame.

Bioware promised a SP campaign as good as their Baldur's Gate games. They failed miserably in delivering that.

AttAdude · Post by **AttAdude** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:04 pm

quantum wrote:
caesarbear wrote:If you went in expecting BG, then of course you would be disappointed.
Please. Bioware's failing was not my problem. Stop trying to shift the blame.

Bioware promised a SP campaign as good as their Baldur's Gate games. They failed miserably in delivering that.

Welcome to the minority. Bioware is nothing short of amazing in a world where we have EA and dreamcater as well as the release now patch later mentality. Rail against them if you want but most people know that very few dev houses are staying close to the original plan of making damn good games and bioware is one of them.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:21 pm

Guys - my love Bioware comment was just because the developer's post made me laugh - especially the Robotech reference.

I personally would also by any Blizzard or Bioware game on Day 1, just because they do support their games. Was I disappointed in NWN - yes, but Bioware didn't disappoint me with their support of the game (which is STILL going strong years after it was released) and when I readjusted my expectations of the game I've come to love it (it hasn't left my hard drive since I installed it on release day as the user mods give me that "quick fix" whenever I need a CRPG hit). I could never wade through BG2 and I hate replaying games so it fits my bill perfectly.

Yes, DRM needs work - it didn't stop me from playing the premium modules when I wanted to, but I can see the other side of the coin. Bioware has, however, given me faith that they would take measures to insure we could still play them if the authentication server was going to be permanently disabled.

quantum · Post by **quantum** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:38 pm

AttAdude wrote:
quantum wrote:
caesarbear wrote:If you went in expecting BG, then of course you would be disappointed.
Please. Bioware's failing was not my problem. Stop trying to shift the blame.

Bioware promised a SP campaign as good as their Baldur's Gate games. They failed miserably in delivering that.
Welcome to the minority. Bioware is nothing short of amazing in a world where we have EA and dreamcater as well as the release now patch later mentality. Rail against them if you want but most people know that very few dev houses are staying close to the original plan of making damn good games and bioware is one of them.

Heh, what devhouse doesn't look godly when compared to EA? That's a strawman comparison if I've ever seen one.

Ironic that you'd criticize a company like EA while simultaneously criticizing my opinion as a minority view. You do realize EA caters to the majority, don't you?

Bioware's a good devhouse, but by no means are they the second coming. The Baldur's Gates were good, but anything using the Aurora engine has been lacklustre at best. KOTOR was only really whiz-bang fantastic if you're a big Star Wars fan... as an RPG, I'd say it's only above average.

CSL · Post by **CSL** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:53 pm

quantum wrote:
AttAdude wrote:
quantum wrote:
caesarbear wrote:If you went in expecting BG, then of course you would be disappointed.
Please. Bioware's failing was not my problem. Stop trying to shift the blame.

Bioware promised a SP campaign as good as their Baldur's Gate games. They failed miserably in delivering that.
Welcome to the minority. Bioware is nothing short of amazing in a world where we have EA and dreamcater as well as the release now patch later mentality. Rail against them if you want but most people know that very few dev houses are staying close to the original plan of making damn good games and bioware is one of them.
Heh, what devhouse doesn't look godly when compared to EA? That's a strawman comparison if I've ever seen one.

Ironic that you'd criticize a company like EA while simultaneously criticizing my opinion as a minority view. You do realize EA caters to the majority, don't you?

Bioware's a good devhouse, but by no means are they the second coming. The Baldur's Gates were good, but anything using the Aurora engine has been lacklustre at best. KOTOR was only really whiz-bang fantastic if you're a big Star Wars fan... as an RPG, I'd say it's only above average.

I wasn't aware that above average counted as lackluster.

Stitch · Post by **Stitch** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:26 pm

quantum wrote:blah blah blah

Let me remind you that I was merely speaking my opinion, not passing some universal decree.

The question was posed: why would anyone buy Bioware games as first day purchases? My answer is because I have found their games to be reliably excellent. I worded my reply differently, obviously, but I figured everyone here was familiar with how opinions work.

You may disagree with my opinion, and that's fine. We're talking about computer games, after all, where a difference of opinion is about as inconsequential and harmless as they come.

caesarbear · Post by **caesarbear** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:36 pm

quantum wrote:
caesarbear wrote:If you went in expecting BG, then of course you would be disappointed.
Please. Bioware's failing was not my problem. Stop trying to shift the blame.

Bioware promised a SP campaign as good as their Baldur's Gate games. They failed miserably in delivering that.

What's your deal? I wasn't defending Bioware, I was saying that NWN was not what people were expecting. I was talking about why you should never buy a game "first day", or at least why I think you shouldn't. We could just as well talk about Blizzard or whatever other company attacts fanbois. You should always wait to find the facts, that way people like you don't get their panties in a twist. Read more than the thread title.

JayG · Post by **JayG** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:44 am

If I remember rightly, they never promised a single player game 'as good as the BG series'. They knew that would be a lie. All they said was that the single player game would be very good, but that the focus was mainly on multiplayer and modules. I knew from the outset the type of game it was, so while I was disappointed ,it is my own fault. That's the main reason I never brought TOEE. Troika said it was a combat based D&D campaign, so I knew that the game would be tactical cobat heavy game. I'll never understand why people blame the developers when a bit of research could save them $50.

As for Bioware, they deserve all their success. Look at the support they have given Odsidian, Irrational and the guys behind the Witcher. The reason they have a huge commuinity is that they spend time with their customers, and they really do love games. While I wish that they would do another BG2 type game (I'll wait and see with Dragon Age), they have given so much back to Gamers in so many different ways I really cannot understand the dislike.

Dhruin · Post by **Dhruin** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:39 am

No, they did promise that -- and repeatedly. Can't blame them for hyping their own product at all but they certainly didn't tone down the rhetoric for the SP campaign and concentrate on emphasising the MP and toolset.

From a random interview at GameSpy:

The campaign is an involving set of modules lasting over 60 hours (and likely over 100 hours if you do absolutely everything) with a story as compelling as anything we've ever done in the Baldur's Gate series. It's really a great experience -- think Baldur's Gate with a little faster pace.

A GameSpot interview on the same day has them saying the dungeons are the best they've ever done and so on.

Anway, you are otherwise right: their support has been superb...not sure how much credit they should get for licensing to other companies - it's probably more commercial than anything else - bur fair enough.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:22 am

Please see the new thread title. I do like Bioware, but I don't love them (I don't *love* any company). Anyway, I read his comments, they made me laugh. I thought I'd share them with people to make them laugh - not to turn into this debate. I'd delete this thread right now if I could but I can't see an option to do it. The first few people who responded understood what the post was for - to bring some positive, fun reading into a forum that's normally filled with stuff like Lorax's troll polls. sigh.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:56 am

I love THE COMMENTS THIS BIOWARE DEV MADE

So why dontcha marry 'em?!

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:02 am

Blackhawk wrote:
I love THE COMMENTS THIS BIOWARE DEV MADE
So why dontcha marry 'em?!

Holy Fuck!

Please delete this thread Blackhawk - you're a mod. Jesus fucking Christ.

JayG · Post by **JayG** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:09 am

Was only a joke. Since this thread was gonna go puff (and I was about to post a long winded response to Druin), I thought I'd have a little fun.

Sorry Icebear

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:10 am

Ha Fucking Ha

Please delete this so I can leave this community without anyone else having to read this.

Suitably Ironic Moniker · Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:27 am

Don't you think you're taking all of this a little too seriously, IceBear?

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:29 am

I do and that's why I have to leave. My threshold for unimportant BS is gone and that's a very bad thing. I need to get away from it all.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:30 am

No shame in taking time (whether minutes ot days) away from the forums. Or the internet, for that matter. Do it. Go enjoy yourself.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:31 am

IceBear wrote: The first few people who responded understood what the post was for - to bring some positive, fun reading into a forum that's normally filled with stuff like Lorax's troll polls. sigh.

I do hope you understand my post included the concept of the 'Understood Winky' with it. Perhaps if I could type in Pee Wee Herman voice it would have come across as the good-natured pressure relief it was intended as.

Truly - I was making a tongue-in-cheek joke, not digging on you.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:35 am

Sorry, I know I'm over-reacting. I just can't take the Internet anymore - so tired of the constant downer. I've tried taking breaks, but every time I come back it takes less time before it gets to me again.

disarm · Post by **disarm** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:21 am

Blackhawk wrote:I do hope you understand my post included the concept of the 'Understood Winky' with it. Perhaps if I could type in Pee Wee Herman voice it would have come across as the good-natured pressure relief it was intended as.

Truly - I was making a tongue-in-cheek joke, not digging on you.

the episode where he marries fruit salad is an absolute classic...what a great show 8)

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:07 pm

This thread is being locked per originator request (we prefer to lock rather than delete.)

IceBear - best of luck. Take a break, and we'll be happy to have you back when you've caught your breath.