We Are ... Horrified

[Smoove_B]

If he’s beaten every day for the rest of his life, it won’t be enough pain to make up for that which he inflicted on those under his care.

Not just beatings:

Disgraced sports doctor Larry Nassar, who was convicted of sexually abusing female gymnasts including Olympic medalists, was stabbed multiple times during an altercation with another inmate at a federal prison in Florida.

Two people familiar with the matter told The Associated Press the attack happened Sunday at United States Penitentiary Coleman. The people said he was in stable condition Monday.

One of the people said Nassar had been stabbed in the back and in the chest. The prison was experiencing staffing shortages, and one of the people familiar with the matter said the officers assigned to the unit where Nassar was held were working mandated overtime shifts.

Also, F Penn State.

[Isgrimnur]

Thoughts and prayers.

[Holman]

I have no sympathy whatsoever for this guy, but extrajudicial violence inside prisons should not be an accepted part of the punishments we assign. As a society, we might be willing to send people to years of confinement, but would we be willing to openly condemn people to "years of confinement along with frequent, unpunished, unacknowledged rape"?

This is especially the case since most victims of prison violence are not high-profile headline sociopaths but simply underprivileged criminals who lacked decent resources for legal defense. They get beaten and sexually assaulted at much higher rates than high-profile figures, who are generally kept separate or in safer facilities precisely to avoid media attention to the system.

The idea of "pound-you-in-the-ass prison" should be shameful to us all. It's torture, not justice.

[Blackhawk]

Thank you. Too many people seem to cackle at the thought of revenge. If we're happy to have people beaten, stabbed, and raped in prison, then why aren't we openly asking for prisons to torture people? It would cut out the middle man, after all, and guarantee people the result they seem to root for.

I've worked in maximum security prisons. I know how this kind of thing actually works. For every terrible human being who suffers beyond what society has deemed his just punishment, there are a hundred people who experienced similar outcomes for minor crimes, or crimes that they're later exonerated of, or for crimes for which the punishments were more about politics than justice (how many thousands are in state and federal prisons for simple marijuana possession?) And that isn't even touching on the issues of race when it comes to conviction and sentencing.

Yes, child molesters are going to be top targets, but so are white collar criminals, and so are criminals who are unlucky enough to have the wrong build, criminals who have the wrong complexion. And it doesn't matter what those peoples' crimes are - that's not what makes them a target. A thin man with fine features and clear skin who has never been in trouble before, placed in prison for minor tax evasion is more likely to be raped than the mass-murderer.

If we accept that rape and violence are a justified part of prison, we're inflicting that on everyone, not just the worst of the worst.

[Smoove_B]

Is there anyone currently posting excitement that he was stabbed? I'm not saying I disagree with the observation, but I'm also not sure anyone is currently wishing harm on him.

Regardless, F Penn State.

[Blackhawk]

Is there anyone currently posting excitement that he was stabbed? I'm not saying I disagree with the observation, but I'm also not sure anyone is currently wishing harm on him.

Regardless, F Penn State.

Not so much this time, but I've seen it (and commented on it) here in the past, more than once.

[GreenGoo]

Thank you. Too many people seem to cackle at the thought of revenge. If we're happy to have people beaten, stabbed, and raped in prison, then why aren't we openly asking for prisons to torture people? It would cut out the middle man, after all, and guarantee people the result they seem to root for.

I feel like this is the trolley question.

I'm not going to send the trolley over him, but if I stand by while it runs him over, no sleep lost.

[Blackhawk]

This isn't the trolley question. This question has three tracks, not two. The third one is the one with nobody tied to the track. Too often when something like this happens, you get a few who see the third track, but decide, hey - it's too much effort to flip the switch.

[Holman]

This isn't the trolley question. This question has three tracks, not two. The third one is the one with nobody tied to the track. Too often when something like this happens, you get a few who see the third track, but decide, hey - it's too much effort to flip the switch.

Plus, in this trolley scenario, our favored hate-object is hardly the only one tied to the track.

[Isgrimnur]

Report: Inmate says Larry Nassar's lewd comment provoked attack

A prisoner suspected of stabbing Larry Nassar at a federal penitentiary in Florida said the disgraced former sports doctor provoked the attack by making a lewd comment while they were watching a Wimbledon tennis match on TV, a source told The Associated Press.

The inmate, identified as Shane McMillan, was previously convicted of assaulting a correctional officer at a federal penitentiary in Louisiana in 2006 and attempting to stab another inmate to death at the federal Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado, in 2011, court records show.

McMillan attacked Nassar in his cell Sunday with a makeshift weapon, stabbing him multiple times in the neck, chest and back before four other inmates rushed in and pulled him off of Nassar, the source told The Associated Press.

Correctional officers assigned to the unit at the United States Penitentiary Coleman responded to Nassar's cell and performed what officials said were life-saving measures. He was taken to a hospital, where he remained in stable condition Wednesday with injuries that include a collapsed lung.
...
McMillan, 49, told prison workers that he attacked Nassar after the sexually abusive ex-U.S. gymnastics team doctor made a comment about wanting to see girls playing in the Wimbledon women's match, the source told the AP.

It was the second time Nassar has been assaulted in federal custody.
...
Nassar was transferred to Coleman from the Tucson penitentiary in August 2018. His lawyers said he'd been assaulted within hours of being placed in general population at the Arizona prison.

[hepcat]

I think the biggest takeaway for me is that they’re watching tennis in prisons.

[Blackhawk]

The inmate, identified as Shane McMillan, was previously convicted of assaulting a correctional officer at a federal penitentiary in Louisiana in 2006 and attempting to stab another inmate to death at the federal Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado, in 2011, court records show.

And he was in general population.

I think the biggest takeaway for me is that they’re watching tennis in prisons.

That particular 'they' don't generally hold the remote.

[LawBeefaroni]

Sometimes bad things happen to bad people..

[em2nought]

Bad people happening to bad people is better than bad people happening to good people.

[Blackhawk]

Bad things not being considered acceptable should still be the preferred option.

[Sudy]

I believe society's priority should be to reduce the suffering of sentient beings wherever it can. Obviously, there's a hierarchy. (Though a binary choice isn't usually involved; as mentioned, it's not a trolley problem.) And before we get into benevolent-world-exploding hypotheticals, there's a logical limit.

But if someone's ability to harm others is being addressed, harmful acts inflicted upon that person beyond meeting that end serve no benefit. Revenge may feel good, but it's not justice. I don't believe anyone wants to live in a world governed by revenge. It may have served a purpose at times in civilization's development, but we now have better tools. To inflict suffering--or to accept, condone, or facilitate its infliction--is depraved, and detrimental to our development as a species.

[GreenGoo]

It's the trolley problem, for me and my response to this news.

My supply of outrage is limited and I have to prioritize.

[Blackhawk]

Our justice system defines what punishments people receive. For the most part, it's what we've decided is acceptable and most effective. Sometimes that goes sideways (1/6), admittedly. The justice system does, perhaps, need a tweak now and then, and there are mechanisms for changing it.

If people think it is acceptable for convicted prisoners to be beaten, raped, and stabbed, I'd suggest that they make an effort to have them enshrined in law, to become part of the justice system. That way it isn't left to chance. You might need to amend the Constitution a bit while you're at it.

And if they don't think that would go over well, maybe think about why.

[Blackhawk]

It's the trolley problem, for me and my response to this news.

My supply of outrage is limited and I have to prioritize.

I'll give the same reply as last time - the trolley problem is the Kobayashi Maru. It's battlefield triage. It's an impossible choice between decisions that all have bad outcomes. It's about forcing the respondent to think about how to handle the kind of problems that cause disastrous indecision, and giving them an understanding of themselves and why they'd choose the way that they do.

This is not that. There are more options than "Accept people being abused in prison." There is also "Let's not accept people being abused in prison", and a hundred variants of that. This isn't an impossible choice, which is at the heart of the trolley problem. There are good outcomes available.

The good outcomes just aren't cathartic.

Personally, letting myself feel good because people are being abused isn't something I'm OK with.

[GreenGoo]

Fine. I wrote more than "trolley problem". My position lies in additional communication already written.

My position was: I could actively wish hurt on said pedophile or I could stand by and do nothing while bad things happen to him. I have chosen the latter.

You want something else, but you're not going to get it. In principle I agree with your position. In reality bad things happen. I prefer they happen to bad people, and this is without a doubt a bad person.

The universe keeps on universing.

[Sudy]

In reality bad things happen. I prefer they happen to bad people, and this is without a doubt a bad person.

Don't we have an obligation to stop the bad things that are within our control? Your position is fallacious. It's not like there's a sex criminal and an innocent in the same room and you have to pick who gets stabbed to meet some kind of stabbing quota. Nobody needs to be stabbed. The world is an overall better place if as few people as possible are stabbed. Standing by and doing nothing is an active choice to let harm be done. A bad person isn't being stabbed to save an innocent person.

[Blackhawk]

I'd add that in the larger picture, we, as a society, have managed to do a very, very poor job of correctly identifying who the 'bad people' are (especially if they're not white.) This guy? Bad people. But this sort of thing happening in prisons is constant (again, worked in a min-max), and it affects everyone from the truly 'bad people', to the 'made a mistakes', to the 'victims of a defective justice system.'

I'm not going to sit here and judge who deserves to be beaten and stabbed and who doesn't, so I'm going to have to argue the idea that any form of prison abuse is a bad thing, not something to cheer about, or even shrug off as, "bad things happen to bad people."

[coopasonic]

I'd add that in the larger picture, we, as a society, have managed to do a very, very poor job of correctly identifying who the 'bad people' are.

Some of us have, over time, have become more uhhhh... awakened to this fact.

[Sudy]

Of course, the concept of "bad" is relative and problematic, but in trying to keep the conversation grounded I don't know how to avoid using the term. Regardless, willfully inflicting harm on anyone (or accepting or encouraging its infliction) is unacceptable and has no place in the society I want to be a part of. If you can demonstrate that stabbing "bad" people is realistically conducive to their rehabilitation or the protection of society or the reduction of suffering of the innocent and the "good", I'm all ears. But I don't think it usually works that way.

[Blackhawk]

It usually results in the Less-bad People and Not-bad People having to go to the Bad People for protection. Ever wonder why the Aryan Brotherhood is so huge in prison? It's not ideology - it's because decent people who are in prison feel like the only way to not be beaten and raped is to be part of it. The same can be said of most of the larger prison gangs. You join the group that will accept you and you play along with their bullshit, because otherwise, you're fair game for everyone. Of course, that doesn't mean that you won't be raped if you're thin and have the right 'look' - it just means that you'll be the 'property' of one tough rather than getting passed around every night.

And guess what kind of people many of the Less-bad and Not-bad people have become before they get the chance to leave.

Go watch The Glass House with Alan Alda if you get the chance. It's dated, but it's surprisingly accurate on what the experience is like for people who aren't hardened criminals (in fact, they had us watch in the training camp for corrections officers to give us an idea of what to expect.)

[GreenGoo]

Don't we have an obligation to stop the bad things that are within our control?

What control is that? I have about as much control over that dude inside the prison as I did outside.

This is clearly important to you. Good luck. No sarcasm.

[Sudy]

As a society, we do control it. And we're members of society. I'm not holding you personally accountable for prison reform or something. But what we believe can have an impact even when we don't have direct influence. Even on a small scale, advocacy matters. Thought is contagious. Change is more likely to occur when people care about something, especially when the majority care.

You choose not to care. That's your right. But I believe this is worth caring about.

[Blackhawk]

As a society, we do control it. And we're members of society. I'm not holding you personally accountable for prison reform or something. But what we believe can have an impact even when we don't have direct influence. Even on a small scale, advocacy matters. Thought is contagious. Change is more likely to occur when people care about something, especially when the majority care.

+1. Reaction to this guy isn't going to 'control' anything, but the attitude in general perpetuates a difficult problem. If more people cared and spoke up, the more likely it is that this kind of thing will eventually be brought under control.

[GreenGoo]

As a society, we do control it.

We control healthcare and poverty, and so many other things too. Most of those people didn't use their position of power over little girls to abuse them.

As I said, good luck. I can't say this any other way. I have to prioritize, and I choose to prioritize elsewhere.

But you guys do what you can. We all have our pet charities. Maybe stop incarcerating for profit. That seems like a good place to start.

[Sudy]

I accept you've chosen this mindset but I don't consider advocating for the general reduction and ideally the elimination of harm, violence, and suffering (especially when easily preventable) to merely be a pet charity. It's a societal necessity. Would I rather eliminate sexual abuse (outside of prison) before prison violence if given a choice? Yes. But we can work on both at the same time. They don't exclusively compete for the same resources and have a not-nominal effect on one another.

[Blackhawk]

Seriously. This isn't about one nutjob coach, this is about the bigger question of how we deal with convicted criminals.

[GreenGoo]

This absolutely *is* about one pedophile.

You two are trying to make it about all violence everywhere in prisons. That's fine, it's a great jumping off point. I'm not particularly interested. It's the trolley problem. I'm not going to actively participate but I will stand by and watch as you guys go for it.

[Blackhawk]

Actually, it is about people publicly shrugging when somebody is repeatedly stabbed, and the fact it is a recurring response to this kind of thing. It's about an attitude that tells people that the violence and abuse are completely acceptable as long as the victims are 'bad' enough.

[Sudy]

You really don't seem to understand what the trolley problem is.

[GreenGoo]

You really don't seem to understand what the trolley problem is.

See, this is also the trolley problem. I can choose to actively explain, or I can sit back and watch the carnage.

Trolley.

[GreenGoo]

edit: removed convoluted, confusing response. Nothing harmful/insulting was said (just to be clear), it was just gibberish so it's gone now.

good luck on your crusade guys!

...trolley.

[gilraen]

My supply of outrage is limited and I have to prioritize.

I like that, I might steal it for later

this is about the bigger question of how we deal with convicted criminals.

No. It's really not.

[Blackhawk]

Looks like we're going to have to disagree. There is no world in which I am going to accept that beating, stabbing, and raping people in custody is in any form OK, and shrugging implies exactly that.

Maybe it's because of my training, maybe it's because of the time I spent working in a prison, seeing these things and the people that they happen to, but to me it's extremely screwed up to just brush it off with some sort of 'he deserved it.'

[Unagi]

So, what is it that you and Sudy do?

[Sudy]

Like... for a living?