(Almost) Simple WW Game #2 - Game Over

[bb2112]

Here's the thing we had 2 misses. For me it seemed like a slip, you might not think of it. But we didnt have 3 misses. We only had 2. Third we had to hit it. We had 3 attempts, but not 3 misses. 3 misses would infer we had the luxury of having a 4th attempt. When we really had 3 attempts.

For me I interpreted as a slip.

I totally hear what you are saying, but I am still interpreting it diffently in my head. When a batter gets up to the plate, you don't tell him that he only has 2 free misses.

Maybe that is how I have to adjust your teminology in my head. It is 2 free misses, but 3 chances.

[stessier]

Here's the thing we had 2 misses. For me it seemed like a slip, you might not think of it. But we didnt have 3 misses. We only had 2. Third we had to hit it. We had 3 attempts, but not 3 misses. 3 misses would infer we had the luxury of having a 4th attempt. When we really had 3 attempts.

FWIW, I've always called the situation you describe "three misses." Heck, a standard "3 miss" game is the situation you describe. Just sayin'.

[Mr Bubbles]

As soon as Remus sent his "helpful" pm I was suspecting him and was leaning more toward him, and as soon as I was going to vote him, I was lynched. He was too busy trying to earn trust and that should have been suspicious in itself.

[RMC]

Well ... I should have never switched from my BB stand earlier when we lynched Austin.

If we had Lynched BB then, I still might have went after Austin, but the momentum just seemed like it was all for Austin, and I figured it had to be one of them, and I thought Austin might have been trying to just be crazy, and see how long her could stay around..

I have no idea what I did that made me look so wolfy to Q... I thought, while silent, I still hopped in and tried to communicate.

I mean Remus was a heck of a lot quieter than I was..

[stessier]

I mean Remus was a heck of a lot quieter than I was..

This game was not played out in the thread - it was played out in PMs. If you weren't sending then you were way quieter than he was.

[bb2112]

I mean Remus was a heck of a lot quieter than I was..

This game was not played out in the thread - it was played out in PMs. If you weren't sending then you were way quieter than he was.

True. I would estimate I recieved about 175 PM's this game. Probably only 25 - 30 were wolf PM's. I probably sent close to 120.

[Unagi]

This entire game hinged on 1 single PM (I am sure there were many hinges, but this is where I made a MAJOR change in my plan - and shared with bb2112 instead of Qantaga.

Talk to me.

Where are you at. (I'm asking for your frame of mind, thoughts on people, etc. not your physical location )

I haven't forgotten you. Traffic was a nightmare around Atlanta and I was beat by the time I got home. I spent this morning on the boards agonizing over my Puerto Rico move in Grund's game (it's approaching its conclusion). I'm racing out the door now, but I'll have my thoughts by tomorrow afternoon.

and you didn't. Not 'tomorrow afternoon', nor even soon after that... Time was ticking and I needed time to coordinate. So, with Qantaga sitting on the pot the whole time - I decided to press my luck with bb2112.

After Lassr was scanned as wolf - I felt there was Zero chance that Austin or Newcastle was - and I was endlessly frustrated that everyone tested those 2 first.

Oh well.

[Unagi]

Good game, wolves.

[Mr Bubbles]

I was obviously wrong about Newcastle, but I definitely had no suspicion of Austin. It was too much of a risk for a wolf to make to do what he did. Austin ended up being a distraction that helped the wolves.

[bb2112]

This entire game hinged on 1 single PM (I am sure there were many hinges, but this is where I made a MAJOR change in my plan - and shared with bb2112 instead of Qantaga.

There was one other hinge point. It fell off my inbox, but when the wolves were talking who to kill night one, Remus suggested killing Unagi. I agreed to it. Then I second guessed myself and suggested Chaosraven, and Lassr voted for El Guapo. So then it was decided El Guapo. If we went with our first instincts and killed Unagi night one, not sure how this game would have turned out.

[Austin]

My ploy could have worked with one tweaks and better execution. I should just avoid analysis and stick to being evil.

Good game wolves.

[stessier]

This entire game hinged on 1 single PM (I am sure there were many hinges, but this is where I made a MAJOR change in my plan - and shared with bb2112 instead of Qantaga.

There was one other hinge point. It fell off my inbox, but when the wolves were talking who to kill night one, Remus suggested killing Unagi. I agreed to it. Then I second guessed myself and suggested Chaosraven, and Lassr voted for El Guapo. So then it was decided El Guapo. If we went with our first instincts and killed Unagi night one, not sure how this game would have turned out.

Actually, Remus came in before the Night and said he thought Unagi might be Seer. Then, a bit later, Night fell and Remus said - okay, so do we kill Unagi? bb2112 said that was possible or maybe Chaos and Lassr chimed in with the Cat. But you all decided to let Remus decide and, without any discussion, he flipped to El Guapo. Darndest thing I ever saw - I had a Unagi kill all written up (such as the write ups were this game).

[triggercut]

Bleah. Good game wolves.

I couldn't have played any worse.

After Austin's mis-read on my non-response to his PM, I was convinced that both he and Unagi were wolves.

Had to be. HAD. TO. BE. (In all caps for how sure I was.)

I could see that they were gaining some purchase in their move on me, so I figured I'd be hung that day and decided to try to ratchet things up to try to provoke them into giving something away.

Didn't work...because there was nothing for either to give away because I read both disastrously.

At any rate, kind of a debacle for the village and I played no small role in it. Apologies to Unagi especially and Austin as well for taking the provocation thing too far. That was senseless and stupid of me and accomplished nothing beyond pissing folks off and making me look like an ass (more than usual, I should clarify).

Finally finally, I thought Unagi's ploy to self-identify via PM and attempt to triangulate wolves that way was brilliant and one of the sharper moves I've seen in one of these games in a while. Really thought it was going to work, too! Ah well.

[Remus West]

I chose El Guapo because nobody seemed to want to off Unagi night 1.

Most times there is a sense of accomplishment when you win these. This one just left me feeling dirty. At one point Qantaga sent me a pm about how this game was more personal due to the nature of pm-ing and I think that was the case for me. It was sort of like building a false friendship with Q and it simply leaves a bad taste behind. I think I'm done with pm games.

[Austin]

Bleah. Good game wolves.

I couldn't have played any worse.

After Austin's mis-read on my non-response to his PM, I was convinced that both he and Unagi were wolves.

Had to be. HAD. TO. BE. (In all caps for how sure I was.)

I could see that they were gaining some purchase in their move on me, so I figured I'd be hung that day and decided to try to ratchet things up to try to provoke them into giving something away.

Didn't work...because there was nothing for either to give away because I read both disastrously.

At any rate, kind of a debacle for the village and I played no small role in it. Apologies to Unagi especially and Austin as well for taking the provocation thing too far. That was senseless and stupid of me and accomplished nothing beyond pissing folks off and making me look like an ass (more than usual, I should clarify).

Finally finally, I thought Unagi's ploy to self-identify via PM and attempt to triangulate wolves that way was brilliant and one of the sharper moves I've seen in one of these games in a while. Really thought it was going to work, too! Ah well.

Turns out you were right that it was a completely poor read. The timezone thing is new to me, glad I am not a Euro and I'll be back on EST (maybe) by April 2013. The waking up and responding to PMs thing did not help either. Your ratcheted up aggression was new to me from my recollections and made me think total wolf. Can I retract my "sweep" comment?

[triggercut]

I chose El Guapo because nobody seemed to want to off Unagi night 1.

Most times there is a sense of accomplishment when you win these. This one just left me feeling dirty. At one point Qantaga sent me a pm about how this game was more personal due to the nature of pm-ing and I think that was the case for me. It was sort of like building a false friendship with Q and it simply leaves a bad taste behind. I think I'm done with pm games.

I think there's a lot of merit to what you say. In public games you're lying to an audience--"performing" if you will, acting a role. In a PM game you're not "performing". You're lying to someone who might be a good friend. Even putting it aside because it's a game, it still sucks.

[Austin]

I chose El Guapo because nobody seemed to want to off Unagi night 1.

Most times there is a sense of accomplishment when you win these. This one just left me feeling dirty. At one point Qantaga sent me a pm about how this game was more personal due to the nature of pm-ing and I think that was the case for me. It was sort of like building a false friendship with Q and it simply leaves a bad taste behind. I think I'm done with pm games.

I understand.

[El Guapo]

By contrast I played flawlessly, clearly spotting Austin as a wolf.

[Qantaga]

I will try to answer for my multitude of sins, but this will take awhile, so I'll go one post at a time, in no particular order.

[bb2112]

Yeah, I hear you guys on the PM thing. I even sent Unagi an apology after we killed him.

[stessier]

I think it says something pretty nice about the community that it bugs us to lie in PMs.

And this is

I even sent Unagi an apology after we killed him.

It may bug us, but we don't let it get in the way of the game.

[bb2112]

It may bug us, but we don't let it get in the way of the game.

Get in the way of the game? Let's not get crazy now!

[Qantaga]

First, my killing of Newcastle was an accident.

stess had posted a somewhat mistaken vote count that looked like this:

Voting history

Spoiler:

• Austin acc Newcastle (1)
• theohall acc Chaosraven (1)
• Newcastle acc RMC (1)
• RMC acc Newcastle (1)

Majority is 5.

Against Newcastle (1): Austin
Against Chaosraven (1): theohall
Against RMC (1): Newcastle
Against Newcastle (1): RMC

No Votes (5): Bubbles, Chaos, bb2112, Remus, Qantaga

I processed the part about Chaos voting for Newcastle, but I didn't process that Newcastle was listed at the top of the list as (1) and at the bottom of the list as (1).

When Newcastle self-voted, it (as always) irritated me to no end, but I thought Newcastle had put the third vote on himself and I honestly thought I was putting Newcastle at n-1.

Even stess thought so and I did not know I had killed Newcatle until Newcastle himself told stess he was dead.

I am sorry about that. I would have tried to talk him off the self-vote if I had known I was putting the killing vote on him, instead of the n-1 vote.

However, I have only become more fully entrenched in my belief that the self-vote never helps the village. If someone can point me to a real game situation where a villager self-voting actually caught a wolf, I will rethink my position, but in my experience with games here and a couple years back at GT, the self-vote always benefitted the wolves.

It is very likely that I will automatically vote for anyone self-voting in any future game.

[Qantaga]

This entire game hinged on 1 single PM (I am sure there were many hinges, but this is where I made a MAJOR change in my plan - and shared with bb2112 instead of Qantaga.

Talk to me.

Where are you at. (I'm asking for your frame of mind, thoughts on people, etc. not your physical location )

I haven't forgotten you. Traffic was a nightmare around Atlanta and I was beat by the time I got home. I spent this morning on the boards agonizing over my Puerto Rico move in Grund's game (it's approaching its conclusion). I'm racing out the door now, but I'll have my thoughts by tomorrow afternoon.

and you didn't. Not 'tomorrow afternoon', nor even soon after that... Time was ticking and I needed time to coordinate. So, with Qantaga sitting on the pot the whole time - I decided to press my luck with bb2112.

After Lassr was scanned as wolf - I felt there was Zero chance that Austin or Newcastle was - and I was endlessly frustrated that everyone tested those 2 first.

Oh well.

Unfortunately, that was truly a nightmare of a weekend. I had to drive from Tallahassee to Atlanta that Friday afternoon. It normally takes me 5-6 hours to make that drive, depending on Atlanta traffic. That day it took over 10 hours to get home, as I ran into three different traffic jams. Saturday morning, I spent my online time working out the details of my final Puerto Rico move (one that made no difference in the end because, unbeknownst to me, El Guapo was already in cruise control). In retrospect, my time would have been much more wisely allocated to this game and Unagi. When I left home that Saturday, though, I had no idea that I would not have a chance to get back to the game for the rest of the weekend. I finally was able to send Unagi a note on Monday morning.

My sincere apologies Unagi. I know you must be frustated by that, but it was not intentional, nor was it a matter of neglect. It was just "real life" concerns.

[Qantaga]

Second time you have killed me to give the wolves a win.. I think that was you the last time it happened.

Thankfully, I don't think that particular crime can be laid at my feet. My memory could be faulty (a distinct possibility), but I think the only "final day" games I have been involved in were:

- The Bond game with Unagi, Scoop, stess, and I in the final day.
- A BSG game where i was a wolf and Semaj and Lagom killed me.
- A OOWW league game where I was a wolf and won it.
- This game.

You might be right that I've done this before, but I don't think it was me.

[Qantaga]

And you didn't even give me a chance to talk or anything, just here's the AX.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I should have given you the chance to speak.

What you have to remember, though, is that I had been proven good once Remus voted for you and I didn't follow along. So, whether you were a villager or the wolf you were going to cast your vote on Remus and tell me that you weren't a wolf (something that even a true wolf would say). To the detriment of the village, my mind had been made up before that day dawned anyway.

In retrospect, I should have held my vote and given you the chance to speak. You may have found something that caused me to rethink my position on Remus.

I apologize RMC.

[bb2112]

There was nothing left to be said that was going to convince you about Remus. I tried for weeks real time to convince you.

[Qantaga]

Stess mentioned the theme of this game was to crush your spirit.

Mission thoroughly accomplished!

stess kicked off the game by picking me last... and it went downhill from there.

[Qantaga]

Herein lies the crux of the matter and where I lost the game.

This post is meant to explain my own personal character flaws and my failure to adapt to a PM game, to the detriment of every villager. This is not a criticism of Remus or bb, but should give everyone insight into how I lost the game for the village (especially Unagi and Austin) who put so much effort into making it an entertaining and grandly strategic game.

Remus and I were working you hard.

This is where I fell. It was the fact that both bb and Remus were on a sustained campaign. They put a lot of time and effort into their PMs with me. It wasn't a casual thing.

I related their strategy to my own shortcomings and projected what I would do onto their actions.

At one point Qantaga sent me a pm about how this game was more personal due to the nature of pm-ing and I think that was the case for me.

Since Remus referred to this, here's the relevant portion of that PM, so that you can all see just how I lost the game:

However, I've learned a valuable lesson. I tend to project my own character traits/flaws into these games. I need to sever myself from that. I could not actively deceive someone on a sustained basis in PMs like bb did to me (masterfully so). I have no problem deceiving/misleading/etc. in an open game thread, but the PMs seem more personal to me. And, of course, bb played it the way it should be played by PM, I just couldn't project myself into that playstyle, if I were a wolf.

Which leads me to my greatest fear. Is it possible that you and bb have both been PMing me this entire game, pointing at each other, leading me to eliminate you two as possible teammates? If so, I will have learned yet another valuable lesson.

One thing that I have to ask myself is, would I feel worse voting for you and being wrong, or voting for RMC and being wrong?

The answer is that I would feel about a thousand times worse being wrong about you than I would about being wrong about RMC. I could much easier bear the burden of being played by you and bb, than the burden of "betraying" you at the end.

This being my first PM game, it came down to the fact that I convinced myself that, because I couldn't personally sustain such a thorough and extended PM campaign of deception, that it must not be possible for them to do it, either.

They both played the game the way it should be played, but I forgot to leave my idiosyncrasies at the door.

[Qantaga]

On the bright side, I should get plenty of playtime in any future games. I have just ensured that the wolves will never kill me again.

[Qantaga]

Oh, and I'll see you all in about six months, but it'll be under a different forum name.

[stessier]

On the bright side, I should get plenty of playtime in any future games.

Heh - not likely. The Villagers will lynch you on the first day since you're far too dangerous to leave alive regardless of alignment (ala purge).

[bb2112]

On the bright side, I should get plenty of playtime in any future games.

Heh - not likely. The Villagers will lynch you on the first day since you're far too dangerous to leave alive regardless of alignment (ala purge).

I'm laughing so hard at this, I have tears in my eyes. I am sure the other people in the office are thinking I'm a lunatic. Of course, they would not be wrong.

[triggercut]

Q, I wouldn't beat yourself up too much over that. The wolves made a play against you and executed it brilliantly and it worked.

I, on the other hand, had no play whatsoever executed against me and managed to may myself look like a giant ball of fur with no help from anyone else, and in so doing generally acted an ass.

Short version: you didn't lose this game. It was lost fairly early on by idiots like me who played much more poorly than you.

[Newcastle]

Q dont beat yourself up....after all it takes a village to lose a game....

[stessier]

Q, I hope you aren't taking this too hard. I forget that your calm, rational words may be hiding something on the other end of the keyboard - that's my blind spot.

When the wolves win, someone has to be the Villager who puts down the fateful vote - it was just your turn. I hope you don't feel like we are picking on you.

[Qantaga]

Q, I hope you aren't taking this too hard. I forget that your calm, rational words may be hiding something on the other end of the keyboard - that's my blind spot. I hope you don't feel like we are picking on you.

stess, no worries. I'm fine. If I was taking it hard, I wouldn't be posting at all.

I do appreciate your thoughtfulness, though. It means a lot to me that it comes at the end of the Qantaga Soul Crushing (tm) game.

I'm at peace with my decisions throughout the game, but I do want to stand accountable to those that I feel like I let down.

And thanks to trig and Newcastle, too.

[El Guapo]

[Qantaga]

Heh - not likely. The Villagers will lynch you on the first day since you're far too dangerous to leave alive regardless of alignment.

Great, so I now become to the village what Kinectikid is to the wolves?

[Unagi]

I'm at peace with my decisions throughout the game, but I do want to stand accountable to those that I feel like I let down.

I'm certainly not upset with you. It was just my impatience that moved me off sharing the PM with you (I wanted to get the ball rolling well before the 4th of July, as I was going to be busy as the holiday approached) - not that I found your play wolfy.

You are indeed a sucker for Remus though.