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Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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malchior
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:06 amBasically if there's ever going to be a challenge to Trump within the GOP, someone needs to be able to say "Trump was wrong" or "my positions are preferable to Trump's" without suffering major adverse consequences. And there's still no sign of that.
Totally agree and I expect the reason is that the conditions that set off this democracy crisis haven't changed. The base is still reeling from economic impacts. The economic conditions that have been driving this outrage are *worse* now than 2016. The pandemic added more economic misery including this inflationary period. And we've seen no real effort to fix the deep inequality in this system so the base will get angrier and angrier.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Unagi »

I felt like this Aaron Rupar article managed to articulate where I land on this topic:

The case for the DCCC taking out so-called "moderate" Republicans:

https://aaronrupar.substack.com/p/dccc- ... john-gibbs
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by El Guapo »

Unagi wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:16 am I felt like this Aaron Rupar article managed to articulate where I land on this topic:

The case for the DCCC taking out so-called "moderate" Republicans:

https://aaronrupar.substack.com/p/dccc- ... john-gibbs
Yeah, I pretty much agree with this as well. As I've said I still think that putting in ads boosting Gibbs was a mistake because the benefit to the odds of a Democratic House majority aren't worth the optics hit that they took. But what annoys me is when people argue that what the DCCC did was *obviously* wrong or crazy, and this articulates well why it's not.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Pyperkub »

malchior wrote:
El Guapo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:06 amBasically if there's ever going to be a challenge to Trump within the GOP, someone needs to be able to say "Trump was wrong" or "my positions are preferable to Trump's" without suffering major adverse consequences. And there's still no sign of that.
Totally agree and I expect the reason is that the conditions that set off this democracy crisis haven't changed. The base is still reeling from economic impacts. The economic conditions that have been driving this outrage are *worse* now than 2016. The pandemic added more economic misery including this inflationary period. And we've seen no real effort to fix the deep inequality in this system so the base will get angrier and angrier.
It does go back to the OP ten years ago. Fox republicans (and worse) are the party now.

Yes, there is economic anxiety, but that is really fueled by the media, over and over saying that no matter what's wrong, you can blame the Democrats.

If/when the day comes that the lies and hate aren't normalized and amplified by Fox, et al, then we might see a conservative party of integrity.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:46 am
Unagi wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:16 am I felt like this Aaron Rupar article managed to articulate where I land on this topic:

The case for the DCCC taking out so-called "moderate" Republicans:

https://aaronrupar.substack.com/p/dccc- ... john-gibbs
Yeah, I pretty much agree with this as well. As I've said I still think that putting in ads boosting Gibbs was a mistake because the benefit to the odds of a Democratic House majority aren't worth the optics hit that they took. But what annoys me is when people argue that what the DCCC did was *obviously* wrong or crazy, and this articulates well why it's not.
I like Rupar but there are several issues. It isn't much more than a stone's throw from 'GOP Delenda Est'. I still think people are underestimating that there is a message being received here by many people. To wit, they hear some folks on the left saying if you don't completely disavow the GOP then you are just as bad as the rest. I actually get the viewpoint to some level but still we need a sane GOP. That is undercut by this idea. It also IMO furthers the impression that there is absolute intolerance for differences in political opinion.

For example, he talks about Meijer not supporting incest/rape exceptions for abortion. We don't have to like those points of view but we can accept he holds them. Heck they should be the basis of opposing them in an election race. Yet Rupar uses it to build this model of the myth of a moderate Republican. Meanwhile, the way I see it is no matter how much I don't like it, it is not premised on what should be the true verbotten viewpoints: destroying democracy/selling the big lie, promoting violence, etc. Yet still he is lumped in with Gibbs because he'd support the party. I get Democrats need to win but it can't become a zero sum game. That is the Republican's game.

I still also see it as the worst sort of tactical thinking that we have seen fail the Democratic party over and over. The argument seems to gloss over the negative outcomes or hand wave them away. And this wasn't just an optics problem solely IMO. It is more properly described as a huge risk management issue. They are taking big risks with too little reward. They are risking putting an actual election denier in Congress while punishing a guy with values maybe we don't agree with but otherwise demonstrates commitment to democratic normal values like holding Trump accountable. And it only improved odds to somewhere around a coin flip? That's a crap bet.
Pyperkub wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:46 am
malchior wrote:
El Guapo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:06 amBasically if there's ever going to be a challenge to Trump within the GOP, someone needs to be able to say "Trump was wrong" or "my positions are preferable to Trump's" without suffering major adverse consequences. And there's still no sign of that.
Totally agree and I expect the reason is that the conditions that set off this democracy crisis haven't changed. The base is still reeling from economic impacts. The economic conditions that have been driving this outrage are *worse* now than 2016. The pandemic added more economic misery including this inflationary period. And we've seen no real effort to fix the deep inequality in this system so the base will get angrier and angrier.
It does go back to the OP ten years ago. Fox republicans (and worse) are the party now.

Yes, there is economic anxiety, but that is really fueled by the media, over and over saying that no matter what's wrong, you can blame the Democrats.

If/when the day comes that the lies and hate aren't normalized and amplified by Fox, et al, then we might see a conservative party of integrity.
Regardless of how it's fueled, it's still actually happening to them. And the Democrats have done far too little to disabuse them of the notion. Or find a way to break through and explain to them how the Republicans actually keep making it worse for them. FWIW I agree about the effects of the Murdoch-verse but we can't hang reform on them getting a conscience. It's been apparent for too long that there isn't one there at all institutionally speaking.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LordMortis »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:06 am Some people are arguing that the raid changed the underlying reality by causing increased support for Trump within the GOP, but I'm inclined to think that it mainly just exposed Trump's ongoing grip on the party.
This is what I believe so it must be true.

I also believe unless there is roadblock Trump is running no matter what. So exposing him is good, even as it puts his nut cases in an uproar. The thing is we need to be careful to actually be exposing and not showing ourselves as political axe grinding. If that the later seems likely it then you'll see increased support from the fence sitting conservatives and "undecided"s.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Pyperkub »

malchior wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:47 pm
Pyperkub wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:46 am
malchior wrote:
El Guapo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:06 amBasically if there's ever going to be a challenge to Trump within the GOP, someone needs to be able to say "Trump was wrong" or "my positions are preferable to Trump's" without suffering major adverse consequences. And there's still no sign of that.
Totally agree and I expect the reason is that the conditions that set off this democracy crisis haven't changed. The base is still reeling from economic impacts. The economic conditions that have been driving this outrage are *worse* now than 2016. The pandemic added more economic misery including this inflationary period. And we've seen no real effort to fix the deep inequality in this system so the base will get angrier and angrier.
It does go back to the OP ten years ago. Fox republicans (and worse) are the party now.

Yes, there is economic anxiety, but that is really fueled by the media, over and over saying that no matter what's wrong, you can blame the Democrats.

If/when the day comes that the lies and hate aren't normalized and amplified by Fox, et al, then we might see a conservative party of integrity.
Regardless of how it's fueled, it's still actually happening to them. And the Democrats have done far too little to disabuse them of the notion. Or find a way to break through and explain to them how the Republicans actually keep making it worse for them. FWIW I agree about the effects of the Murdoch-verse but we can't hang reform on them getting a conscience. It's been apparent for too long that there isn't one there at all institutionally speaking.
I'm not 100% sold on that. See Sandy Hook and Alex Jones lawsuits. See Dominion lawsuits v. Fox/OAN/Newsmax/etc.

Even if the Jones Punitive damages are slashed (in this case), the lies and hate have really started spilling over into financial consequences to those who profit from this.

Yes, they are still at what they probably consider a (rather large) business expense in their taxes as a cost of doing business with this business model, and if (when, the way Trump is pushing the limits) Trump is prosecuted for crimes, there may be further changes, especially has he has been dragging people into his circle and they are getting splashed with his filth.

I don't know if it will actually happen, but there is some evidence that there will be a limit.

Or we're just f*cked.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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The "Anti-democracy experiment".

Why isn't the NYT calling it fascism here? Are they soft-selling the idea somehow?
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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This is partly why I'm reading - Laboratories of Autocracy

I'm only a few chapters in but I'm curious how he'll land the idea that the big problems we face are mostly at the state level. But seeing what happened in Wisconsin which is straight up anti-democratic spilling out to open attacks on democracy seems like a natural evolution of this nation's continuing decline.
Laboratories of Autocracy shows that far more than the high-profile antics of politicians like Marjorie Taylor Greene or Jim Jordan—and yes, even bigger than Donald Trump’s "Big Lie”—it’s anonymous, often corrupt politicians in statehouses across the country who pose the greatest dangers to American democracy.

Because these statehouses no longer operate as functioning democracies, these unknown politicians have all the incentive to keep doing greater damage, and can not be held accountable however extreme they get. This has driven steep declines in states like Ohio and others across the country. And collectively, it’s placed American democracy in its greatest peril since the dawn of the Jim Crow era.

But Pepper doesn’t stop there. He lays out a robust pro-democracy agenda outlining how everyone from elected officials to business leaders to everyday citizens can fight back.
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:58 am The "Anti-democracy experiment".

Why isn't the NYT calling it fascism here? Are they soft-selling the idea somehow?
It really looks like they are afraid.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by em2nought »

Bye bye Liz. :dance:
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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em2nought wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:14 pm Bye bye Liz. :dance:
The embodiment of the 21st century Republican party.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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malchior wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:47 pm
El Guapo wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:46 am
Unagi wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:16 am I felt like this Aaron Rupar article managed to articulate where I land on this topic:

The case for the DCCC taking out so-called "moderate" Republicans:

https://aaronrupar.substack.com/p/dccc- ... john-gibbs
Yeah, I pretty much agree with this as well. As I've said I still think that putting in ads boosting Gibbs was a mistake because the benefit to the odds of a Democratic House majority aren't worth the optics hit that they took. But what annoys me is when people argue that what the DCCC did was *obviously* wrong or crazy, and this articulates well why it's not.
I like Rupar but there are several issues. It isn't much more than a stone's throw from 'GOP Delenda Est'. I still think people are underestimating that there is a message being received here by many people. To wit, they hear some folks on the left saying if you don't completely disavow the GOP then you are just as bad as the rest. I actually get the viewpoint to some level but still we need a sane GOP. That is undercut by this idea. It also IMO furthers the impression that there is absolute intolerance for differences in political opinion.

For example, he talks about Meijer not supporting incest/rape exceptions for abortion. We don't have to like those points of view but we can accept he holds them. Heck they should be the basis of opposing them in an election race. Yet Rupar uses it to build this model of the myth of a moderate Republican. Meanwhile, the way I see it is no matter how much I don't like it, it is not premised on what should be the true verbotten viewpoints: destroying democracy/selling the big lie, promoting violence, etc. Yet still he is lumped in with Gibbs because he'd support the party. I get Democrats need to win but it can't become a zero sum game. That is the Republican's game.

I still also see it as the worst sort of tactical thinking that we have seen fail the Democratic party over and over. The argument seems to gloss over the negative outcomes or hand wave them away. And this wasn't just an optics problem solely IMO. It is more properly described as a huge risk management issue. They are taking big risks with too little reward. They are risking putting an actual election denier in Congress while punishing a guy with values maybe we don't agree with but otherwise demonstrates commitment to democratic normal values like holding Trump accountable. And it only improved odds to somewhere around a coin flip? That's a crap bet.
OK. I couldn’t have said this any better myself. So why is it again that we diverge on my 2 camps outlook?
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Kurth »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:58 am The "Anti-democracy experiment".

Why isn't the NYT calling it fascism here? Are they soft-selling the idea somehow?
Did you read the article?
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Alefroth wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:21 am
em2nought wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:14 pm Bye bye Liz. :dance:
The embodiment of the 21st century Republican party.
I don’t see your posts unless quoted by others, but FUCK YOU em2nought.

Apologies. Won’t happen again.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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This is some weird timeline. If I had been in a coma for the last 8 years and somebody told me Liz Cheney was getting thrown out of Congress I would have rejoiced.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Eight years? They loved her as recently as two years ago.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by malchior »

Kurth wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:57 amOK. I couldn’t have said this any better myself. So why is it again that we diverge on my 2 camps outlook?
The main difference is I don't think there is any sizable group of folks on the left that want one party rule. There are many rightly panicking about the shape of the GOP as it is *now*. And they follow along or justify all these risky, long-term damaging tactical things because it's just a small step to them along the path to get past the crisis we are in.

The problem is they've done it so long they are just the cat chasing their own tail at this point. So they've gotten more desperate over time. In any case, I don't think when you read something like that from Rupar the message intended is 'I want the GOP destroyed'. It is because folks like him aren't thinking it through to the logical ends. They're tunnel visioned on the races. They aren't worrying about what happens when they see the people they support help the GOP purge their moderating members.

To the larger question, I'll rephrase a little what I said about how I don't think the 2 camps you put forward are a good model fit. On one hand supporting it is that there is some hardening radicalization happening on the left (camp 2). The key word is some. Frankly I'd expect it to be worse considering how bad it is on the right. Against the 2 camp model is the composition of the Democratic party. I think the Democratic party is just the huge tent now. They stretch from the far left all the way to right of center. Because there is no alternative. And that big a pool isn't neatly divided up into those camps. I think there is just too wide a range of opinion about what to do about this crisis.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Jaymann wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:18 am This is some weird timeline. If I had been in a coma for the last 8 years and somebody told me Liz Cheney was getting thrown out of Congress I would have rejoiced.
She's not pure enough.

FYI—Liz Cheney opposed the Voting Rights Act, min wage increase, Equality Act, Equal Rights Amendment, George Floyd Act, BBB, Infrastructure bill, Inflation Reduction Act, $35 Insulin bill, Women’s Health Protection Act, anti-gas price gouging bill—& voted w/Trump 93% of the time
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Smoove_B wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:32 am She's not pure enough.
Right.

She didn't get better. The GOP just got *so* much worse.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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em2nought wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:14 pm Bye bye Liz. :dance:
Lol….Considering what you write on OO, I love that you think this new world order run by evangelicals and the moral majority won’t be coming for your ass 10 minutes after they take over. Can’t wait to see your “oh shit, I didn’t think this through” face. :mrgreen:
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Face eating leopards. That’s what they always were.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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hepcat wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:45 pm
em2nought wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:14 pm Bye bye Liz. :dance:
Lol….Considering what you write on OO, I love that you think this new world order run by evangelicals and the moral majority won’t be coming for your ass 10 minutes after they take over. Can’t wait to see your “oh shit, I didn’t think this through” face. :mrgreen:
It's ok to "other" people (Mexicans, LGBTQ, Muslims, Heck any non-Caucasian) for the modern GOP. That's a policy that worked out really well for the Catholics in 1930s Germany.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Buck up em2 , if you would just invest in a stormtrooper outfit, you will be given a nice pass on your foul politics and disregard for democracy.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Scraper wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:33 am
hepcat wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:45 pm
em2nought wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:14 pm Bye bye Liz. :dance:
Lol….Considering what you write on OO, I love that you think this new world order run by evangelicals and the moral majority won’t be coming for your ass 10 minutes after they take over. Can’t wait to see your “oh shit, I didn’t think this through” face. :mrgreen:
It's ok to "other" people (Mexicans, LGBTQ, Muslims, Heck any non-Caucasian) for the modern GOP. That's a policy that worked out really well for the Catholics in 1930s Germany.
The puritanical approach that Trump and his sycophants adhere to in public in order to get the evangelicals on board will go after anyone who lives anything less than a "pure christian life". That's why they'll be coming for em2 in the middle of the night...at which point he'll give them his shocked face

Image

:mrgreen:

...of course, he'll have moved to Thailand by then..."for the weather".
Last edited by hepcat on Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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At least it makes it easy to point out what states are shitty. Mine included.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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It’s not a state that is shitty.

It is the voters of a state that make it shitty.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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With the exception of Florida. Man, I hate high temps and high humidity.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Unagi wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:04 am Buck up em2 , if you would just invest in a stormtrooper outfit, you will be given a nice pass on your foul politics and disregard for democracy.
Pass? No. Respect for wanting civility and finding shared interests, etc, in the hope that common ground in one area can spill over eventually to other areas as respect can grow and become the familiar rather than the hated? Yup.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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My new favorite description of one of Trump's supporters comes from Eisner award winning comic book writer/author Mark Russell who describes Steve Bannon thusly in a retort to Bannon's latest silly tweet that John Fetterman is "satanic" because some of his family posted cosplay photos on social media from a convention they attended:
“Says the guy who perpetually looks like he just stepped out of a panel van to buy duct tape.”
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by em2nought »

hepcat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:10 am
Scraper wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:33 am
hepcat wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:45 pm
em2nought wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:14 pm Bye bye Liz. :dance:
Lol….Considering what you write on OO, I love that you think this new world order run by evangelicals and the moral majority won’t be coming for your ass 10 minutes after they take over. Can’t wait to see your “oh shit, I didn’t think this through” face. :mrgreen:
It's ok to "other" people (Mexicans, LGBTQ, Muslims, Heck any non-Caucasian) for the modern GOP. That's a policy that worked out really well for the Catholics in 1930s Germany.
The puritanical approach that Trump and his sycophants adhere to in public in order to get the evangelicals on board will go after anyone who lives anything less than a "pure christian life". That's why they'll be coming for em2 in the middle of the night...at which point he'll give them his shocked face

Image

:mrgreen:

...of course, he'll have moved to Thailand by then..."for the weather".
I'm definitely not a fan of the weather you prude. :wink: Bye, bye Brian Stelter too! :dance:
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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I’ll wave at you as the Puritan Police you helped put into power haul you away. :mrgreen:
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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“We shouldn’t rely on elections”:

Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

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Jesus. And people wonder why all the cable companies dropped their channel. :P
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Octavious wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:52 am Jesus. And people wonder why all the cable companies dropped their channel. :P
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em2nought
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by em2nought »

Grifman wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:06 am “We shouldn’t rely on elections”:
I think she's saying "we" should be more like Democrats, you guys should like that. Common ground and all. :mrgreen:
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hepcat
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by hepcat »

Then show me in that video where she implores you folks to stop blindly following one man who openly lies to you at every turn, while asking you to commit treason against your own country. :mrgreen:
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

Post by Daehawk »

My Tweet for the day....

The GOP is doing all it can to steal the vote next time. Dont let these unGodly unAmericans do that. Get off your behinds and vote them out like you have never voted before! Its important and it will only change for the worse if you do nothing.
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