Defining the 21st Century Republican Party?

[Unagi]

That’s totally true.

Unfortunately I think he also taught the GOP to appeal to the worst of the GOP (ala Palin.) Perhaps unintentionally.

[LordMortis]

That’s totally true.

Unfortunately I think he also taught the GOP to appeal to the worst of the GOP (ala Palin.) Perhaps unintentionally.

He was encouraged to appeal to the worst of the GOP by the worst of the GOP and by the established GOP wanting to broaden support. Now should he have resisted once he saw what Palin was bringing to the table? I say, yes. But then I wasn't the target demographic, even as the power of Palin and the Tea Party were being established and exposed at the same time. I was becoming more "occupy Wallstreet" and less libertarian at the time these guys were coming in to focus and have been on that journey ever since. I still remember believing this was last desperate gasp of a dying appeal to zealotry and bigotry while looking at and supporting the hopeful demonstrations of America's future. Oh, I was so blissfully ignorant then.

[malchior]

Great idea though it'll never happen. They'll be talking about how "moderate" Youngkin is soon enough.

[Smoove_B]

The attempted kidnapping of Nancy Pelosi and attack on Paul Pelosi mark a turning point in American political discourse.

Here's why:

We are witnessing the GOP not only refuse to widely condemn this attack, we are watching them mock and joke about it. They are normalizing it.

[malchior]

Sure. This is the turning point is a media meme at this point. They also did this after 1/6. And after many other horrible events. This isn't new.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, I guess I wasn't agreeing with the "turning point" element as much as the GOP has clearly normalized it. Speaking of which, has DeSantis chimed in yet about the laser messages last night or should I keep waiting for that?

[malchior]

Yeah, I guess I wasn't agreeing with the "turning point" element as much as the GOP has clearly normalized it. Speaking of which, has DeSantis chimed in yet about the laser messages last night or should I keep waiting for that?

The comment is not really aimed at anyone in particular. I feel like everyone has used that line and then gone back to sleepwalking into whatever happens next.

[Kurth]

Yeah, I guess I wasn't agreeing with the "turning point" element as much as the GOP has clearly normalized it. Speaking of which, has DeSantis chimed in yet about the laser messages last night or should I keep waiting for that?

The comment is not really aimed at anyone in particular. I feel like everyone has used that line and then gone back to sleepwalking into whatever happens next.

You talk about people "sleepwalking into whatever happens next." I'm really interested in what proactive measures you propose to mitigate the fact that most of the information the electorate appears to take in at this point is misinformation and that one of our only two viable political parties is entirely dysfunctional and has been coopted by an anti-democratic authoritarian who may or may not also be a complete and total idiot.

If people were to wake up from their "sleepwalking," what would you have them do?

[LordMortis]

Sure. This is the turning point is a media meme at this point. They also did this after 1/6. And after many other horrible events. This isn't new.

I hear this is surely what will get Trump.

[malchior]

Yeah, I guess I wasn't agreeing with the "turning point" element as much as the GOP has clearly normalized it. Speaking of which, has DeSantis chimed in yet about the laser messages last night or should I keep waiting for that?

The comment is not really aimed at anyone in particular. I feel like everyone has used that line and then gone back to sleepwalking into whatever happens next.

You talk about people "sleepwalking into whatever happens next." I'm really interested in what proactive measures you propose to mitigate the fact that most of the information the electorate appears to take in at this point is misinformation and that one of our only two viable political parties is entirely dysfunctional and has been coopted by an anti-democratic authoritarian who may or may not also be a complete and total idiot.

If people were to wake up from their "sleepwalking," what would you have them do?

There are lots of things folks could be doing. The press could be focused on countering misinformation. The NY Times today has a story about the disinformation effort around DePape today. It's actually a good summation of what happened. IMO they and every outlet need to do this *every time*. Not when it's so obvious that it is like an anvil just fell on their head.

The major outlets and potentially others organizations should be setting up a (dis)misinformation beat. I posted it above but Matthew Gertz alone was ahead of this because he monitored the right-wing noise machine building it in real-time before it turned into NY Post articles. Small teams with a few analysts and a lead reporter or two could do real work here. There are undoubtably teams working on creating the disinformation in the first place. This is an information war. We need to treat it as such and have counter-teams.

They also need to do it while still pressing the gas on the real story. Where the NY Times did well on the disinformation, they did poorly on the tone on the story of the attack. The story's framing on the attack today bent over backwards to avoid the elephant in the room. For example, what's more effective here? The headline as published, "Intruder Wanted to Break Speaker Pelosi’s Kneecaps, Federal Complaint Says" or "Federal Prosecutor's Charge Man with Attempting to Kidnap Speaker of the House". It's not like the first one isn't pretty shocking. They obviously didn't mind some sensational framing but it feels like they are soft peddling the political aspect. (Edit: The print edition went with this headline - "Charges Depict A Chilling Plan Against Pelosi" with this sub-headline text in bold 'Threat to Take Speaker and Break Her Knees') The story itself is exactly what it needed to be but a lot of folks only get impressions from the headline and never read the story. Others also take the tone from headlines into major account while reading the details. Perhaps, the thought there was that one article being overtly about the politics was enough? I don't know but it's time to stop pulling punches.

Outside the media, the Democrats need to spend the next 2 years doing nothing but preparing and talking about it. And they need to push the press to talk about it non-stop. The Democrats in this cycle assumed Roe would drive votes -- and maybe it did -- but we simply did not hear them talking enough about the consequences of the Republicans taking power again. Tom Nichols had a good piece about this in the Atlantic.

Also, we have 2 years ahead where folks need to press hard on motivating people about the crisis that is approaching. We have a reasonable idea about the shape of the election deniers plan. We need people pushing hard to work on strategies and get out the vote so people vote so big there is no controversy. If that doesn't work they need contingencies, they need to start thinking and acting like the Republicans and preparing legal cases and strategies for 2024 election stealing cases. Where do they file the cases? What are out arguments? Have it ready to go. They might need to prepare for massive in the streets protests if need be.

The crisis is here. When I say stop sleepwalking we need to pull out the stops to convince people -- not the deplorables who are already lost but people who can be convinced -- that the danger is real and fight like it is happening instead of just possible.

We also need to keep in mind that the next 2 years are going to be major chaos. Unless a miracle happens the GOP takes the House and it will be non-stop hearings, impeachments, disinformation manufacturing, and hostage taking. The government is about to become that much more dysfunctional. If they take the Senate, then more dimensions layer in like governmental and judge appointment pipelines completely drying up. The time to fight like hell is here.

[hepcat]

As much as I loved to hate John McCain, at least he leaned into the civility that should be present in politics.

+1

I don't think we knew how good we had it until it was all taken from us. There's "people we don't agree with" then there are "people who have zero shred of integrity and will crawl over the broken body of democracy to get that extra slice of cake they feel they should have".

[Kurth]

Yeah, I guess I wasn't agreeing with the "turning point" element as much as the GOP has clearly normalized it. Speaking of which, has DeSantis chimed in yet about the laser messages last night or should I keep waiting for that?

The comment is not really aimed at anyone in particular. I feel like everyone has used that line and then gone back to sleepwalking into whatever happens next.

You talk about people "sleepwalking into whatever happens next." I'm really interested in what proactive measures you propose to mitigate the fact that most of the information the electorate appears to take in at this point is misinformation and that one of our only two viable political parties is entirely dysfunctional and has been coopted by an anti-democratic authoritarian who may or may not also be a complete and total idiot.

If people were to wake up from their "sleepwalking," what would you have them do?

There are lots of things folks could be doing. The press could be focused on countering misinformation. The NY Times today has a story about the disinformation effort around DePape today. It's actually a good summation of what happened. IMO they and every outlet need to do this *every time*. Not when it's so obvious that it is like an anvil just fell on their head.

The major outlets and potentially others organizations should be setting up a (dis)misinformation beat. I posted it above but Matthew Gertz alone was ahead of this because he monitored the right-wing noise machine building it in real-time before it turned into NY Post articles. Small teams with a few analysts and a lead reporter or two could do real work here. There are undoubtably teams working on creating the disinformation in the first place. This is an information war. We need to treat it as such and have counter-teams.

They also need to do it while still pressing the gas on the real story. Where the NY Times did well on the disinformation, they did poorly on the tone on the story of the attack. The story's framing on the attack today bent over backwards to avoid the elephant in the room. For example, what's more effective here? The headline as published, "Intruder Wanted to Break Speaker Pelosi’s Kneecaps, Federal Complaint Says" or "Federal Prosecutor's Charge Man with Attempting to Kidnap Speaker of the House". It's not like the first one isn't pretty shocking. They obviously didn't mind some sensational framing but it feels like they are soft peddling the political aspect. (Edit: The print edition went with this headline - "Charges Depict A Chilling Plan Against Pelosi" with this sub-headline text in bold 'Threat to Take Speaker and Break Her Knees') The story itself is exactly what it needed to be but a lot of folks only get impressions from the headline and never read the story. Others also take the tone from headlines into major account while reading the details. Perhaps, the thought there was that one article being overtly about the politics was enough? I don't know but it's time to stop pulling punches.

Outside the media, the Democrats need to spend the next 2 years doing nothing but preparing and talking about it. And they need to push the press to talk about it non-stop. The Democrats in this cycle assumed Roe would drive votes -- and maybe it did -- but we simply did not hear them talking enough about the consequences of the Republicans taking power again. Tom Nichols had a good piece about this in the Atlantic.

Also, we have 2 years ahead where folks need to press hard on motivating people about the crisis that is approaching. We have a reasonable idea about the shape of the election deniers plan. We need people pushing hard to work on strategies and get out the vote so people vote so big there is no controversy. If that doesn't work they need contingencies, they need to start thinking and acting like the Republicans and preparing legal cases and strategies for 2024 election stealing cases. Where do they file the cases? What are out arguments? Have it ready to go. They might need to prepare for massive in the streets protests if need be.

The crisis is here. When I say stop sleepwalking we need to pull out the stops to convince people -- not the deplorables who are already lost but people who can be convinced -- that the danger is real and fight like it is happening instead of just possible.

We also need to keep in mind that the next 2 years are going to be major chaos. Unless a miracle happens the GOP takes the House and it will be non-stop hearings, impeachments, disinformation manufacturing, and hostage taking. The government is about to become that much more dysfunctional. If they take the Senate, then more dimensions layer in like governmental and judge appointment pipelines completely drying up. The time to fight like hell is here.

I go back to a post by LawBeef in the Domestic Violence thread:

We're at a point in the American experiment where [Pelosi’s attacker] has to be either a right wing extremist, goaded into violence by hateful GOP rhetoric or a gay drug addict rent boy, the product of permissive liberal weakness.

I mean if this happened and doesn't advance a particular political agenda, did it really happen?

I don’t want to just throw my hands in the air, but I think this post really nailed it. In this kind of environment, what does it really matter whether the NYT and the MSM are nailing the nuance with their headlines? Do we really think the NYT can be an effective counter to disinformation when the people most susceptible to disinformation have already decided that Charlie Kirk is a more credible news source?

No one is looking for news anymore. People don’t want reporting. They want agenda confirmation. The facts are what my agenda needs them to be, and there’s not much the ineffectual media is going to be able to do to change that.

[malchior]

I don’t want to just throw my hands in the air, but I think this post really nailed it. In this kind of environment, what does it really matter whether the NYT and the MSM are nailing the nuance with their headlines? Do we really think the NYT can be an effective counter to disinformation when the people most susceptible to disinformation have already decided that Charlie Kirk is a more credible news source?

I'd argue I'm talking a lot more than nuance. I was advocating for organized effort to counter disinformation. Instead we have the media putting a megaphone in front of right-wing politicians flat out lying and pushing cookie cutter meme stories in every market in the country that aid the GOP. The criticism of the headlines is just about pointing out that they aren't even trying to tell the real story when it's right there. They've surrendered the space to lies.

[Kraken]

100 years of fascism

For fascist parties and politicians to win elections, they usually must attract support from people who, if asked, would loudly reject the fascist label. But this need not be so difficult: voters merely have to be persuaded that democracy is no longer serving their interests.

The author grounds fascism in the Ku Klux Klan and draws a straight line to Orban, trump, DeSantis, and especially Putin.

This could have gone in any number of threads, but fascism defines the 21st century Republican Party now.

[Kurth]

I don’t want to just throw my hands in the air, but I think this post really nailed it. In this kind of environment, what does it really matter whether the NYT and the MSM are nailing the nuance with their headlines? Do we really think the NYT can be an effective counter to disinformation when the people most susceptible to disinformation have already decided that Charlie Kirk is a more credible news source?

I'd argue I'm talking a lot more than nuance. I was advocating for organized effort to counter disinformation. Instead we have the media putting a megaphone in front of right-wing politicians flat out lying and pushing cookie cutter meme stories in every market in the country that aid the GOP. The criticism of the headlines is just about pointing out that they aren't even trying to tell the real story when it's right there. They've surrendered the space to lies.

But it doesn't fucking matter. No one -- on the "other" side -- is listening to or reading the NYT. The people fighting the good fight at the New York Times (I think they still do that, 9 times out of 10) could dedicate themselves to shining a spotlight on disinformation day in and day out. Make it priority #1. And it wouldn't matter. Not one bit.

I just saw a post on LinkedIn from a former colleague in Boston about the USS Constitution sailing again in celebration of its 225th anniversary. I saw there was a link to Old Ironsides' official Instagram account. I went to check it out to get some more info and to see some pics of the 21 gun salute they did. Instead, I found this:

dman40usmcBeautiful ship but our ancestors that our ancestors that built that ship are rolling over in their graves right now. Our military's a f****** joke

rynic0
@dman40usmc interesting opinion, especially given that the US Military is the most powerful military force ever in all of human history, period. Which is definitely no joke. Also, why would the sailors and Marines that crewed her in the past be rolling over in their graves when their beloved ship continues to be maintained at a seaworthy condition by highly skilled craftsmen, still active duty naval vessel with a Navy crew, and she continues to serve as our nation’s Official Ship of State?

dman40usmc
@rynic0 I'm a former marine.Have you not been paying attention to what is taking place in this country?? The US government is forcing medical shots on folks or you could lose your job or your spot in the military. OUR TAX dollars funded the making of Covid-19.Our politicians are calling Americans insurrectionist.....My son will not serve this country letting the trans and libs do it...I already lost an uncle in Vietnam...

rynic0
@dman40usmc interesting perspective. Genuinely curious, what does your opinion and perspective about any of those things have anything remotely to do with a post picturing the firing of a 40mm replica cannon on the USS Constitution?

dman40usmc
@rynic0 the men that built that ship would be rolling over in their Graves at current state of our military and country...

dman40usmc
@rynic0 I bet you turn on the fake news whether it be cbs CNN fox or NBC and think your up to date with current events.. And I bet you tan out and took that experimental shot and wore a face diaper thinking you were saving lives CUZ THE TV TOLD YOU that you were.

rynic0
@dman40usmc wow, fascinating story. Interesting too, as you know nothing about me. Have you ever thought about writing fiction? And Funny too, as the Marines I know don’t share any of your views nor are they openly disrespectful to strangers, period. In any case, best of luck and thank you for your service Marine, Semper Fidelis.

dman40usmc
@rynic0 sorry you don't believe me that our military is WEAK as f--- .I'm still very involved with active duty Marines..Your living in a fantasy world if you think our country is doing good..They to worried about folks PRONOUNS than winning wars.

I mean, seriously. What are you going to do in the face of that?

[malchior]

I don’t want to just throw my hands in the air, but I think this post really nailed it. In this kind of environment, what does it really matter whether the NYT and the MSM are nailing the nuance with their headlines? Do we really think the NYT can be an effective counter to disinformation when the people most susceptible to disinformation have already decided that Charlie Kirk is a more credible news source?

I'd argue I'm talking a lot more than nuance. I was advocating for organized effort to counter disinformation. Instead we have the media putting a megaphone in front of right-wing politicians flat out lying and pushing cookie cutter meme stories in every market in the country that aid the GOP. The criticism of the headlines is just about pointing out that they aren't even trying to tell the real story when it's right there. They've surrendered the space to lies.

But it doesn't fucking matter. No one -- on the "other" side -- is listening to or reading the NYT. The people fighting the good fight at the New York Times (I think they still do that, 9 times out of 10) could dedicate themselves to shining a spotlight on disinformation day in and day out. Make it priority #1. And it wouldn't matter. Not one bit.

You can't win the other side. Fuck them. I'm talking about keeping people who are legitimately getting confused by the torrents of propaganda flooding our system. Outlets like the big papers and tv networks have deep pockets. They could fund efforts to counter disinformation - instead we have to rely on individuals right now doing good work but not getting the exposure they need. We can't expect people to able to sort through all this while they are being overwhelmed by disinformation that has broken us.

Edit: And just to put a finger on the 9 times out of 10 because I'm again FURIOUS with the NY Times tonight - they published an article about JD Vance's wife where they managed to soft peddle his extremism:

Once a Never Trumper who made his name deciphering working-class white resentment for the liberal center, Mr. Vance has tacked to the right leading up to and during his Senate campaign. He has staked out a place as a leader of an ascendant wing of highly nationalistic Republicans. This group supports significant restrictions on immigration and champions the traditional nuclear family. They blame universities and Silicon Valley for the rise of “woke capital,” which they define as the trend of multinational corporations taking progressive stances on social issues to distract from practices that hurt American workers.

He hasn't "tacked to the right". They aren't highly nationalistic. He is a neo fascist. There are articles on his New Right buddies where he out loud espouses fascist views such as "Great Replacement Theory". This wasn't something published on a substack. It was *Vanity Fair*. "Highly nationalistic" - I guess the Nazis just had strong views on German identity too. You can't make this shit up. And while I'm not saying this New York Times bio piece is mostly puff since they do layout the negatives, his role is highly normalized as him just playing the game. It's *insane* that this is what passes as journalism.

I mean, seriously. What are you going to do in the face of that?

We can't win them over. We need to move on and hope there aren't enough of them. We also need to hold onto hope that we don't get to the point where we'll be forced to fight them with more than words.

[Kurth]

I'm talking about keeping people who are legitimately getting confused by the torrents of propaganda flooding our system.

Who are these people? Are there really people who are legitimately confused into thinking the assault on the Speaker of the House's husband by a guy screaming "Where is Nancy?" was part of some gay lovers sex quarrel and not an act of political violence? The numbers don't lie:

There have been at least 19,000 tweets mentioning the words “Pelosi” and “gay” since the day of the attack, garnering a total of more than 700,000 likes, according to a CNN analysis – and that doesn’t include tweets referencing the theory without those words, or tweets that have since been deleted.

19K tweets. 700K likes. But, sure, let's have the NYT inform them all, and I'm sure the problem will dissipate.

Sorry to sound so snarky. Not directed at you. This latest incident has just really hit a nerve for me. I'm feeling more than a little bit angry at the state of things right now.

[malchior]

I'm talking about keeping people who are legitimately getting confused by the torrents of propaganda flooding our system.

Who are these people? Are there really people who are legitimately confused into thinking the assault on the Speaker of the House's husband by a guy screaming "Where is Nancy?" was part of some gay lovers sex quarrel and not an act of political violence? The numbers don't lie:

There have been at least 19,000 tweets mentioning the words “Pelosi” and “gay” since the day of the attack, garnering a total of more than 700,000 likes, according to a CNN analysis – and that doesn’t include tweets referencing the theory without those words, or tweets that have since been deleted.

19K tweets. 700K likes. But, sure, let's have the NYT inform them all, and I'm sure the problem will dissipate.

Sorry to sound so snarky. Not directed at you. This latest incident has just really hit a nerve for me. I'm feeling more than a little bit angry at the state of things right now.

It's clear because you aren't really listening to the point. You seem to be focused on the unfixable when there are tons of people, good people, who can't separate what is true and not true right now. I'd say yes there are people getting confused about the Pelosi story though. Because that is how disinformation works. Bad information works by growing legs and being repeated over time. Those 19K tweets might be 25K tweets tomorrow. The more pollution of the information sphere there is the worse it gets. Edit: This is also my biggest fear with Twitter under Musk. There was legitimate progress being made to flag and identify misinformation on the platform. Musk is poised to cut the legs out of the machine that makes that work and turn the noise back up on misinformation.

Also important is that many, many outlets take their cues from the NY Times and they've done a terrible job setting the standard for how to deal with a society being drowned in disinformation. This is especially the case when they are unwilling to speak unvarnished truth. We need someone to light a beacon about how to cut through all this and start giving people some anchor on what is reality. What we need to recognize is that there has been little effort to combat it in any systematic way. Lots of folks are just declaring defeat and bunkering down hoping it'll blow over. It won't and it'll be harder to fight in the future.

[Kurth]

I'm talking about keeping people who are legitimately getting confused by the torrents of propaganda flooding our system.

Who are these people? Are there really people who are legitimately confused into thinking the assault on the Speaker of the House's husband by a guy screaming "Where is Nancy?" was part of some gay lovers sex quarrel and not an act of political violence? The numbers don't lie:

There have been at least 19,000 tweets mentioning the words “Pelosi” and “gay” since the day of the attack, garnering a total of more than 700,000 likes, according to a CNN analysis – and that doesn’t include tweets referencing the theory without those words, or tweets that have since been deleted.

19K tweets. 700K likes. But, sure, let's have the NYT inform them all, and I'm sure the problem will dissipate.

Sorry to sound so snarky. Not directed at you. This latest incident has just really hit a nerve for me. I'm feeling more than a little bit angry at the state of things right now.

It's clear because you aren't really listening to the point. You seem to be focused on the unfixable when there are tons of people, good people, who can't separate what is true and not true right now. I'd say yes there are people getting confused about the Pelosi story though. Because that is how disinformation works. Bad information works by growing legs and being repeated over time. Those 19K tweets might be 25K tweets tomorrow. The more pollution of the information sphere there is the worse it gets. Edit: This is also my biggest fear with Twitter under Musk. There was legitimate progress being made to flag and identify misinformation on the platform. Musk is poised to cut the legs out of the machine that makes that work and turn the noise back up on misinformation.

Also important is that many, many outlets take their cues from the NY Times and they've done a terrible job setting the standard for how to deal with a society being drowned in disinformation. This is especially the case when they are unwilling to speak unvarnished truth. We need someone to light a beacon about how to cut through all this and start giving people some anchor on what is reality. What we need to recognize is that there has been little effort to combat it in any systematic way. Lots of folks are just declaring defeat and bunkering down hoping it'll blow over. It won't and it'll be harder to fight in the future.

Good? Maybe. But if they are honestly "confused" into thinking the Pelosi attack was part of a gay lovers quarrel, they are so stupid it won't matter a bit how much light the NYT or other reputable outlets try to shine on the disinformation they are inundated with. Also: They'll never hear or see it.

Also, I read that Vanity Fair piece you linked to in your edited post above. It's long. Really, really, long. I read every word, though, and I didn't see a single mention of the Great Replacement Theory or anything about Vance espousing it (although some of his off-the-record musings later on are as fascist as you can get).

I did think that Vanity Fair article was an incredibly interesting read about Thiel and Masters and Vance and Yarvin and the New Right. It's fascinating to me how little these guys purportedly care about the "culture war" issues they peddle to the masses and how much more focused they profess to genuinely be on "a fight against a consumerist techno-dystopia" and dismantling the Regime. There's an odd space in which I can see why the far left starts to bend around and merge with these New Right sentiments.

[malchior]

Good? Maybe. But if they are honestly "confused" into thinking the Pelosi attack was part of a gay lovers quarrel, they are so stupid it won't matter a bit how much light the NYT or other reputable outlets try to shine on the disinformation they are inundated with. Also: They'll never hear or see it.

I think you might be focusing again on the unfixable here. This is just an example but I think it's still possible that someone who only gets bits and pieces could believe in many things. There are a lot of people hurting out there and people start believing all kinds of crazy things...especially when they get repeated over and over. Whether it's this Pelosi nonsense or election denial. People don't start off as a QAnon advocate, they get there over time. That's all I'm getting at. I know many smart people who over time have fallen into the alternate fact universe. It's not stupidity necessarily.

Also, I read that Vanity Fair piece you linked to in your edited post above. It's long. Really, really, long. I read every word, though, and I didn't see a single mention of the Great Replacement Theory or anything about Vance espousing it (although some of his off-the-record musings later on are as fascist as you can get).

Ah. I thought it was there. A quick search reminds me he went on Tucker Carlson and at other times he signaled messaging from in his senate campaign. Tim Ryan actually challenged him on it and he lied about that naturally. The thing with Vance is that I don't think he believes anything concrete unless it aligns with him having power. He's so astroturf he wrote a book to fake being genuine. He is on the dangerous end of the sphere. The type of person who should *never* have any amount of power.

I did think that Vanity Fair article was an incredibly interesting read about Thiel and Masters and Vance and Yarvin and the New Right. It's fascinating to me how little these guys purportedly care about the "culture war" issues they peddle to the masses and how much more focused they profess to genuinely be on "a fight against a consumerist techno-dystopia" and dismantling the Regime. There's an odd space in which I can see why the far left starts to bend around and merge with these New Right sentiments.

It is a great piece. To me it read as a bunch of assholes standing around pretending to have values when the only value they admire is power. To your observation, I'm sure we could have heard about parties like that back in 1907 where Russian revolutionaries met to talk about their shared Marxist values. In the New Right's case, what they are really aiming at is more libertarian fairy tales but it certainly has a hard populist bent to it (as a road to power) .

[Alefroth]

Good? Maybe. But if they are honestly "confused" into thinking the Pelosi attack was part of a gay lovers quarrel, they are so stupid it won't matter a bit how much light the NYT or other reputable outlets try to shine on the disinformation they are inundated with. Also: They'll never hear or see it.

70% of Republicans think the 2020 election was stolen. It isn't just about stupidity, it's about gullibility and susceptibility.

[LawBeefaroni]

Good? Maybe. But if they are honestly "confused" into thinking the Pelosi attack was part of a gay lovers quarrel, they are so stupid it won't matter a bit how much light the NYT or other reputable outlets try to shine on the disinformation they are inundated with. Also: They'll never hear or see it.

70% of Republicans think the 2020 election was stolen. It isn't just about stupidity, it's about gullibility and susceptibility.

Or maybe they're just off by 20 years.

[Pyperkub]

Good? Maybe. But if they are honestly "confused" into thinking the Pelosi attack was part of a gay lovers quarrel, they are so stupid it won't matter a bit how much light the NYT or other reputable outlets try to shine on the disinformation they are inundated with. Also: They'll never hear or see it.

70% of Republicans think the 2020 election was stolen. It isn't just about stupidity, it's about gullibility and susceptibility.

Eh, it's also about hate, and pretty much being so conditioned to hate Democrats, that anything that challenges that hate is immediately discarded as the impact of challenging that hate is too disturbing to them to contemplate.

It's not being gullible and susceptible, but rather an existential question of who they actually are, and what they are actually supporting, that they are in denial about, IMHO. At least for huge chunks of the Republican electorate.

[LordMortis]

For many it's about hate but for many it's also willful ignorance. And the sports fan style of politics they (and now we ) have allowed themselves to be part of. I've seen it enough. I've seen it so deafening that I don't even bother any more. When that talk started so much I shut down and that shut down has now carried over to my general disposition. While I'm still not a democrat;, pragmatically, I can't foresee the future where I honestly refer to myself as an independent any more. There is nothing in the last 7+ years to lead me to believe anything in the next decade will change to allow for split ticket voting.

[Pyperkub]

A good piece on lying as tribal signalling, and how it plays into this discussion. Are you enough of a tribe member to stay no matter what?

Instead, I offer another possibility — that lies of this sort are uttered precisely because they come with costs. I propose that political lies are a costly signal of tribal loyalty.

Remember, in economics, “signaling” means much more than just “trying to prove something”. Signaling in econ is basically when people jump through hoops in order to prove themselves. You might take a useless but difficult college course or math test, just to prove to future employers that you’re smart. Or you might get a tattoo to prove your loyalty to a yakuza gang, even though the tattoo would make it harder to get into a Japanese public bath or get a normal job. The fact that the signal comes with a cost is essential to separating the dedicated people from the posers.

Political lies could function similarly to the gang tattoos. By going on record as saying that we should seriously consider the possibility that climate change might not be real, you exposure yourself to a lifetime of ridicule. But that very exposure might prove that you’re the real thing, hardcore, really on the team, to a partisan audience who might otherwise be inclined to question your conservative bona fides. After all, if you were really a cuckservative or RINO, would you really have been willing to risk your reputation in the media world or in East Coast intellectual circles just to spread some FUD about climate change?

[Kraken]

A good piece on lying as tribal signalling, and how it plays into this discussion. Are you enough of a tribe member to stay no matter what?

502 Bad Gateway

[El Guapo]

A good piece on lying as tribal signalling, and how it plays into this discussion. Are you enough of a tribe member to stay no matter what?

502 Bad Gateway

Only true believers can see the article.

[Pyperkub]

A good piece on lying as tribal signalling, and how it plays into this discussion. Are you enough of a tribe member to stay no matter what?

502 Bad Gateway

Odd, it works for me, but I do have it bookmarked from back in the day... and am a free subscriber (a lot of his stuff is free)

Maybe try search the Archive for

Political lying as tribal signaling

[Kraken]

A good piece on lying as tribal signalling, and how it plays into this discussion. Are you enough of a tribe member to stay no matter what?

502 Bad Gateway

Odd, it works for me, but I do have it bookmarked from back in the day... and am a free subscriber (a lot of his stuff is free)

Maybe try search the Archive for

Political lying as tribal signaling

That worked. Same URL though...odd.

[malchior]

502 errors are usually misconfigurations or problems at the site. The URL was probably never a problem.

[Kraken]

502 errors are usually misconfigurations or problems at the site. The URL was probably never a problem.

I'm sure it would take a long time to fix 502 errors. That's a lot.

[Kurth]

502 errors are usually misconfigurations or problems at the site. The URL was probably never a problem.

I'm sure it would take a long time to fix 502 errors. That's a lot.

My father-in-law would appreciate this very much.

[Carpet_pissr]

502 errors are usually misconfigurations or problems at the site. The URL was probably never a problem.

I'm sure it would take a long time to fix 502 errors. That's a lot.

[malchior]

I saw that late last night and it totally didn't register as a joke at all. I was very sleepy and very confused by it.

[Kraken]

I amuse myself, if no one else.

[Smoove_B]

Not making a lot of news outside scientific circles, but the GOP has really gone off the deep end

It's truly depressing to see that the antivax #Nuremberg2 narrative is now a mainstream @RandPaul campaign promise. If you still doubt that @GOP is now fully antivax, doubt no more.

[Alefroth]

As if public health apathy wasn't enough, now we might have to face public health antagony?

[LordMortis]

Made me look!

Actual piece

https://www.naturalnews.com/2022-11-03- ... rimes.html

Says nothing about Paul trying to lead Nuremberg 2.0 because, as it turns out Antivax desire for Nuremberg 2.0 is a thing, which I did not know until you posted a link that was not about what it says it's about.

It's basically a restatement of Paul's never ending, blue pill hardon for Fauci.

[Smoove_B]

As if public health apathy wasn't enough, now we might have to face public health antagony?

Indeed. Since the summer of 2020 there's been an aggressive push in 30+ states to curb public health powers; it's ongoing even now and I genuinely fear the future of the field is up in the air until after the 2024 elections. We're on the ropes and it's not going to take much (administratively) to finish us off.

[Smoove_B]

It's basically a restatement of Paul's never ending, blue pill hardon for Fauci.

There's convergence - the 20+ year antivax movement joined forces with anyone and everything railing against COVID-19 control measures - masks and vaccinations included and now they're like a giant derp-Voltron flailing around and trying to dismantle 50+ years of vaccination progress for freedom.

“Every time he tells people, ‘Oh, wear a cloth mask,’ he is actually endangering people. If you are around someone with COVID, you don’t want to wear a mask, because they don’t work,” he said.

From the bottom of my heart, F Rand Paul and the people that vote for him. Genuine and complete trash.