Octopus Overlords

malchior wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:32 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:28 pmI'd go as far as to say that America didn't even become a democracy until the Civil Rights Act of 1965, and the GOP has been fighting a rear-guard action against democracy ever since.

I've heard this idea several times and it essentially makes sense. I wouldn't describe it as a rear-guard though. It really was an insurgency effort that was fought in fits and starts with the classic above ground legitimate party supported by an underground dirty tricks network that got more and more capable over time. Unfortunately the Democrats slept through the whole thing.

I mainly think of the modern GOP as an alliance between those who hate the New Deal (but who have been unable to destroy it) and those who hate modern tolerance of minorities (but who have been unable to stop progress on that). Both groups don't hate democracy per se, but would like to restrict it to the correct group of people.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:23 pm I mainly think of the modern GOP as an alliance between those who hate the New Deal (but who have been unable to destroy it) and those who hate modern tolerance of minorities (but who have been unable to stop progress on that). Both groups don't hate democracy per se, but would like to restrict it to the correct group of people.

I used to see it this way, but I no longer do. I feel 95% certain that a populist Trump-like figure who came along and promised New Deal socialism for lower-middle and working-class whites would command the GOP if he made it clear that minority/immigrant/inner-city "takers" wouldn't qualify for the benefits.

Obviously this would be attended by tax breaks and other tricks to massage the conservative 1%, but the whole game would be about defending Real America's white Christian identity against the swarthy and suspicious Other.

I think y'all are mistaken. While there are the ultra corporate, nationalistic, 2am, and racist areas of the GOP, the majority just don't want liberals telling them what they have to believe.

That's what bands them all together. You can see it when you look at individual issues.

For example, 36% of republicans think abortion should be legal in almost all cases. That's not even with some caveats.
It's the same with gun control, and note it was over 50% prior to last summers protests/riots.
55% of republicans support gay marriage.

But being against liberalism is what gets people watching Fox news and being anti vaccine. The vast majority aren't against vaccines, but they hate being told what to do.

And yet their answer is to generally to tell everyone else what to do.

One of if not the largest politically active (95%+ voters, and people who buy or not buy (cancel!) goods from certain companies due to politics) blocs within the GOP care MORE about returning to a 50’s style America, and everything that entails.

I totally get ND’s assertion, and know more than a few R’s that for them, it’s one of the biggest driving factors of support. I’m just not sure it’s as powerful as what’s been brewing since the 60’s and continues today.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:44 pm And yet their answer is to generally to tell everyone else what to do.

You might be conflating ND’s R’s with mine. :p

I’m sure there is some overlap, but generally the ‘just leave me the fuck alone’ R’s are NOT as politically active as the anti-abortionists, get God back in school and government, get our military on more steroids than it already is, etc types (hint: Evangelicals)

Blackhawk wrote:And yet their answer is to generally to tell everyone else what to do.

I know very few of those. The ones that are are outspoken enough for all the others.

Just look at the conservatives on this board? How many tell you what to believe?

Compare that to the liberals. Not that they are wrong except in degree or ability to compromise, but it's a far more stronger ideology test.

This isn't too be confused with the GOP political regime. That's clearly an attempt at an authoritarian takeover.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:04 pm Just look at the conservatives on this board? How many tell you what to believe?

Compare that to the liberals. Not that they are wrong except in degree or ability to compromise, but it's a far more stronger ideology test.

Conservatives don't tell you what to believe (well, some do - evangelicals are a thing.)

The problem is that they (at least those who are politically active) push for legislation that tell you how to act.

Carpet_pissr wrote:Yep. I think we are seeing the culmination of the culture war that was started decades ago.

Spoiler: the end game is re-establishment of a more patriarchal (read white, male dominant) society, with a LOT of militarization worship and a very healthy dose of authoritarianism thrown in for good measure.
God
Family (traditional WASP models only thankyouverymuch)
Country

Not Christian? Screw you, heathen scum
Not white? Stay down
Not male? Shut up, the men are talking

Bombing other countries that are seen as threats before they do anything is totes OK. Translates into domestic society as well: shoot/kill someone that is simply perceived as a threat by you? NO PROBLEMO, even if your name is Karen.

You left out Guns. Probably number one on the list, before God.

Blackhawk wrote:

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:04 pm Just look at the conservatives on this board? How many tell you what to believe?

Compare that to the liberals. Not that they are wrong except in degree or ability to compromise, but it's a far more stronger ideology test.

Conservatives don't tell you what to believe (well, some do - evangelicals are a thing.)

The problem is that they (at least those who are politically active) push for legislation that tell you how to act.

Like what?

But again, the political machine is a separate animal. And I'm fully aware of the loudmouths, whether it be the racists or the evangelicals. The deplorables clearly have a home in conservatism.

Even stimpy's primary motivation isn't policy, but attacking liberals.

Wouldn't let me edit me post.

I want to make it clear I'm not downplaying the nature of a lot of conservatives.

And I'm fully aware of the loudmouths, whether it be the racists or the evangelicals. The deplorables clearly have a home in conservatism.

Like "You're welcome to believe what you like about __________, but we'll codify our beliefs as law to prevent you from acting on your beliefs."

Fill in the blank with "abortion", "same sex marriage", "scientific principles that counter religion", "police reform", or any of dozens of others. The movement to restrict socially liberal ideas by making laws that make them impossible is pervasive, effectively forcing people to live by conservative values.

"Congratulations, Liberals. You can protest all you like, but in the end you're going to live in a world with minimal restrictions on behaviors that affect the safety of others, no abortion, no officially contradicting the de-facto state religion, no stopping corruption, no re-balancing broken electoral systems, a wealth divide that crushes most of the population, no gays getting married, a broken health care system that puts us behind the rest of the developed world. You're going to do so because while we're in power, we're going to force precedent and laws that are very, very difficult to overturn to make sure that your views can't get traction any time soon. But go ahead and protest."

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:38 pm Wouldn't let me edit me post.

I want to make it clear I'm not downplaying the nature of a lot of conservatives.

And I'm fully aware of the loudmouths, whether it be the racists or the evangelicals. The deplorables clearly have a home in conservatism.

And I still don't believe that all conservatives fall into that camp, but enough of them do that they're able to make these changes, and the fact is that most of the remainder supports them with their votes. Actions speak loudly.

noxiousdog wrote:the majority just don't want liberals telling them what they have to believe.

I feel that attitude has been fostered by conservative media's us vs them messaging, because in reality "telling someone what to believe" doesn't even make sense. You can't force someone to believe something they don't want to believe, and there's no enforcement even if they're out there doing it. So what you're left with is people getting angry over messaging that they are free to ignore with no repercussions. And when you drill down into it, that messaging has been amplified and distorted by right-wing media - see "War on Christmas," "Liberal Indoctrination in Universities" etc.

It's also a ridiculously childish way to live your life. "Nobody's going to tell me that I have to wear a mask!!!" while simultaneously voluntarily obeying dozens of laws on a daily basis that the government told them they must obey.

My thought for any political party is if you have solutions to issues, present them or get the fuck out of the way. Oppositional defiance is not a political platform, it's a childhood mental health disorder.

A day or two ago the national GOP stated that it will not release a formal platform in '24, because its platform will be whatever its nominee says it is.

Kraken wrote:A day or two ago the national GOP stated that it will not release a formal platform in '24, because its platform will be whatever its nominee says it is.

AKA Pwn teh libs. In public at least.

In private? Get in on the grift.

In public at least.

In private? Get in on the grift.

Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:49 pm A day or two ago the national GOP stated that it will not release a formal platform in '24, because its platform will be whatever its nominee says it is.

Also because they know who the 2024 nominee is going to be.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:38 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:49 pm A day or two ago the national GOP stated that it will not release a formal platform in '24, because its platform will be whatever its nominee says it is.

Also because they know who the 2024 nominee is going to be.

That sums up defining the 21st century Republican Party, unless one casts the bones for 2060 and beyond. The Reagan taint lingered for 40 years before something worse displaced it.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:38 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:49 pm A day or two ago the national GOP stated that it will not release a formal platform in '24, because its platform will be whatever its nominee says it is.

Also because they know who the 2024 nominee is going to be.

98.9% this.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:27 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:38 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:49 pm A day or two ago the national GOP stated that it will not release a formal platform in '24, because its platform will be whatever its nominee says it is.

Also because they know who the 2024 nominee is going to be.

98.9% this.

We can always hope the fat fuck has a fatal grabber before then. Or one of the many criminal cases pan out, and he is unable to attend rallies on account that he's in prison.

And then we get DeSantis, the same guy trying to create state-level militias not beholden to the federal government. I'm sure those will only be used for pure humanitarian purposes.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:20 pm And then we get DeSantis, the same guy trying to create state-level militias not beholden to the federal government. I'm sure those will only be used for pure humanitarian purposes.

FWIW I think that is more COVID nonsense than revolution prep. I think the issue there is that he is scoring some cheap points saying he'll have a vaccine mandate free militia. He is arguing that the Federal government is risking disaster preparedness by pushing out good folk who won't get a vaccine. It's a different level of bat shit.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:20 pm And then we get DeSantis, the same guy trying to create state-level militias not beholden to the federal government. I'm sure those will only be used for pure humanitarian purposes.

A lost of states have the same thing, including blue states, and it's only 200 volunteers. It's more of a publicity stunt than anything else, just gives DeSantis a chance to thumb his nose at the Feds and please his base. It's not really as much as what people have made it to be.

Thanks for the clarification, it's hard to keep up with all the authoritarian moves to undermine democracy straight these days.

Dan Crenshaw trashes the Freedom Caucus:

I honestly had written Crenshaw off as one of those grifters. But I never really paid that much attention to him.

He's just trying to work a long con.

I'd wager that they all inherently know this, but Crenshaw actually said the quiet part out loud. Which is a little bit surprising, I suppose.

Which begs the question of who is worse: the performative grifters, or those who know it's all a performative grift and simply go along with it anyways?

Oh, and Crenshaw is absolutely one of the performative grifters as well. Remember this? It's possible they're finally figuring out the damage they're causing and are frantically trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Seriously. It's just another purity test. The only "lying" part he was concerned about was that they didn't vote for Trump stuff enough.

He's trying to thread the needle. There are still currents within the GOP and he is saying he is with the less clown-y clowns. I suspect that is why we are seeing fighting between MTG and Mace as well. In essence there are some ever so slightly more moderate radicals (smarter radicals tbh) who want to keep the crazy in house for now.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:30 am

Which begs the question of who is worse: the performative grifters, or those who know it's all a performative grift and simply go along with it anyways?

All of the above There's no reason to be a performative grifter if there aren't marks for the performance...

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:52 am He's trying to thread the needle. There are still currents within the GOP and he is saying he is with the less clown-y clowns. I suspect that is why we are seeing fighting between MTG and Mace as well. In essence there are some ever so slightly more moderate radicals (smarter radicals tbh) who want to keep the crazy in house for now.

It's become a concern that MTG et al are tarnishing the brand in ways that could affect 2022. Kevin McCarthy let slip as much in a press conference recently.

This is fine.

On Fox News, Sen. Roger Wicker (R-MS) floats the idea of bombing Russian military assets -- and says he wouldn't even rule out a nuclear strike

BOMB ALL THE THINGS!!! JFC...

But they could destroy the pee pee tape!

That's a pretty far cry from Putin as the lovable dictator.

Ah the usual non-coherence I expect from these idiots. I get what he is saying about first-use nuclear doctrine being on the table. He is saying we'll scare them with nuclear escalation. As if that hasn't been the threat for 75 fucking years. There is no reason to say it OUT FUCKING LOUD on Fox News. Luckily Putin knows that we are a shit show with shit show clowns like this. He knows it's all bullshit and performative bluster for their unhinged idiotic base. Cavuto isn't 100% a clown either so I'd be curious if he tried to get this nitwit Senator to temper the comments. And as an aside good lord have standards fallen into the abyss for US Senators. Maybe there'd be a few bad apples in the bunch but this crop? Just historically horrendous by any measure.

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:25 pm And as an aside good lord have standards fallen into the abyss for US Senators. Maybe there'd be a few bad apples in the bunch but this crop? Just historically horrendous by any measure.

Mississippi politicians have been a shitshow since the end of Reconstruction.

Wicker's predecessor was Trent Lott, a died-in-the-wool social conservative in the era of Reagan and Gingrich. Before him was John Stennis, who voted against civil rights every chance he could. Before him was Theodore Bilbo, an actual KKK member.

Holman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:38 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:25 pm And as an aside good lord have standards fallen into the abyss for US Senators. Maybe there'd be a few bad apples in the bunch but this crop? Just historically horrendous by any measure.

Mississippi politicians have been a shitshow since the end of Reconstruction.

Indeed. I was more referring to the caucus overall.

Wicker's predecessor was Trent Lott, a died-in-the-wool social conservative in the era of Reagan and Gingrich. Before him was John Stennis, who voted against civil rights every chance he could. Before him was Theodore Bilbo, an actual KKK member.

Right and Lott very well could have been a white nationalist Senator. I seem to recall he had family tied to white hate. In the end though he was at least some degree of smart. This idiot? Sheesh.

Holman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:38 pm a died-in-the-wool social conservative

copy editor/ "dyed-in-the-wool" /copy editor

I like your version better in this context though.