Octopus Overlords

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:13 pm Don't hear Ye, don't hear Ye.

Yeah, I’m definitely not clicking that.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:49 pm

Jaymann wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:35 pm Two letters could fix the whole thing: "un" in front of ethical.

Presumably she doesn't want to commit us to unethical research and practice. I hope not, anyway.

Anyway, I get the point. Maybe it's just because I'm not in the scientific research community.

I agree, I don't get all the furor over the wording. The message is clear.

Max Peck wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:19 am My (probably unpopular) opinion is that swearing allegiance to Russia at this time is simply a long overdue formality.

Edward Snowden swears allegiance to Russia and receives passport, lawyer says

Edward Snowden, a former National Security Agency contractor who leaked information about U.S. surveillance programs, swore an oath of allegiance to Russia and has collected his Russian passport, his lawyer told state media on Friday.

Somehow I doubt that he'll be getting a lot of use from that passport any time soon.

Yeah, only surprised that it took so long.

Not that different from here.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/fil ... giance.pdf

And it’s not like we’ve denied or revoked the passports of people prone to saying things that “we” don’t like. /s

CNBC

Former Theranos chief operating officer and president Ramesh “Sunny” Balwani was sentenced to nearly 13 years in prison Wednesday for fraud, after the unraveling of the blood-testing juggernaut prompted criminal charges in California federal court against both Balwani and Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes, who on Nov. 18 was sentenced to more than 11 years in prison.
...
The final guideline sentence was 155 months, plus three years of probation. Davila set a Mar. 15, 2023, surrender date.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:37 pm CNBC

Former Theranos chief operating officer and president Ramesh “Sunny” Balwani was sentenced to nearly 13 years in prison Wednesday for fraud, after the unraveling of the blood-testing juggernaut prompted criminal charges in California federal court against both Balwani and Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes, who on Nov. 18 was sentenced to more than 11 years in prison.
...
The final guideline sentence was 155 months, plus three years of probation. Davila set a Mar. 15, 2023, surrender date.

Ouch. And he won't be able to appeal due to pregnancy like she has.

Originally posted on the wrong thread, but re: the Griner release:


Glad to see she's back home but she did actually bring drugs (THC infused vapes) into Russia. Because of that, we had to release a death merchant to get her back. And Whelan is still in a Russian prison.

Treating her like a hero boggles the mind. She's a prodigal child who deserves support but come on. Let's not slaughter the fattened calf.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:07 pm Originally posted on the wrong thread, but re: the Griner release:


Glad to see she's back home but she did actually bring drugs (THC infused vapes) into Russia. Because of that, we had to release a death merchant to get her back. And Whelan is still in a Russian prison.

Treating her like a hero boggles the mind. She's a prodigal child who deserves support but come on. Let's not slaughter the fattened calf.

I wasn't sure where to post my rage about this. This makes me soooo mad. The bullshit of "oh, I didn't know that was in my bag" is a childish response. You should have known what was in your God-damed bag. What, someone else packed for you? Fuck this. I don't know about prodigy - I don't follow WNBA - but she is on such a low level of concern and to release her in trade for a fucking arms dealer. This was probably the worst trade deal ever. I realize it is allllll politics and there is no other real value (just because she is an American? no.) but I hope everyone stops whining about her and she goes back to her obscurity as before.

But I'm sure there will be a book released (written by a ghost writer) before long.

A nonny mouse wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:46 pm The bullshit of "oh, I didn't know that was in my bag" is a childish response. You should have known what was in your God-damed bag.

Have you met people?

CNBC

“I forgot.”

That’s the number one reason Transportation Security Administration agents say they hear at airport security checkpoints when they catch a passenger with a firearm.

Of the 5,832 firearms stopped so far this year, as of Monday, nearly 88% were loaded, according to the TSA. The total number is quickly catching up to last year’s record of 5,972 – or approximately 17 guns a day.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:54 pm

A nonny mouse wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:46 pm The bullshit of "oh, I didn't know that was in my bag" is a childish response. You should have known what was in your God-damed bag.

Have you met people?

CNBC

“I forgot.”

That’s the number one reason Transportation Security Administration agents say they hear at airport security checkpoints when they catch a passenger with a firearm.

Of the 5,832 firearms stopped so far this year, as of Monday, nearly 88% were loaded, according to the TSA. The total number is quickly catching up to last year’s record of 5,972 – or approximately 17 guns a day.

Yeah, and given it's probably not a problem any time she travels in the US, it's very believable.

FWIW the Whelan family released a statement essentially saying they are glad the Biden administration was able to make a deal. It also shows us how the Russians know our politics better than many of us do. Part of the math why they are holding Whelan is because of what we are seeing today. The right-wing is now screaming into the void about how the famous, criminal *gay* basketball player is getting a break over the white male who did nothing wrong. The Russians constantly play the racist morons here like a fiddle.

Regardless, she actually did it. She broke their laws and was arrested and convicted for it.

Paul Whelan is in jail accused of being a spay, which he and the US deny. It's an injustice if true and if not, and he actually is a US spy, we should be trying to get him back just as urgently, if not more so.

But I guess being a tik-tok/Kardashian/Twitter cause célèbre is what really matters.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:18 pm Regardless, she actually did it. She broke their laws and was arrested and convicted for it.

Paul Whelan is in jail accused of being a spay, which he and the US deny. It's an injustice if true and if not, and he actually is a US spy, we should be trying to get him back just as urgently, if not more so.

But I guess being a tik-tok/Kardashian/Twitter cause célèbre is what really matters.

You are partly being played by the Russians here. The Biden administration likely didn't choose one over the other. The Russians are playing a game here.

Edit: To be clear, a *LOT* of people are assuming we made a choice. Without any evidence, if there is evidence otherwise then I'll promptly shut up but this is classic Russian tradecraft. They are experts at manipulation.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:00 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:54 pm

A nonny mouse wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:46 pm The bullshit of "oh, I didn't know that was in my bag" is a childish response. You should have known what was in your God-damed bag.

Have you met people?

CNBC

“I forgot.”

That’s the number one reason Transportation Security Administration agents say they hear at airport security checkpoints when they catch a passenger with a firearm.

Of the 5,832 firearms stopped so far this year, as of Monday, nearly 88% were loaded, according to the TSA. The total number is quickly catching up to last year’s record of 5,972 – or approximately 17 guns a day.

Yeah, and given it's probably not a problem any time she travels in the US, it's very believable.

I empty my bags/pockets out completely before repacking any time I fly or leave the country. No that I carry drugs but a stray round or casing, multi tool, or a > 1 oz bottle of liquid maybe tucked away somewhere. It's totally human nature to forget. Which is why I always empty and double check.

FWIW, Griner never claimed she forgot, she claimed she didn't know that it was illegal (she had a medical prescription in the US). Again, not a heinous act IMO but technically illegal in Russia.

Imagine if she had that in her bag when she played in the World Cup in Turkey.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:18 pm Regardless, she actually did it. She broke their laws and was arrested and convicted for it.

Paul Whelan is in jail accused of being a spay, which he and the US deny. It's an injustice if true and if not, and he actually is a US spy, we should be trying to get him back just as urgently, if not more so.

But I guess being a tik-tok/Kardashian/Twitter cause célèbre is what really matters.

This is a bad take. Even presuming that it's more important/just to get Whelan back than it was to get Griner back, sometimes you have to take what you can get. If the options were getting Griner back but not Whelan or getting neither back, then you take the former option. By all accounts I've seen, the administration was trying to get Whelan back too, but the Russians were unwilling.

Sure it was technically illegal. The context still is that a generally lawless, criminal regime used it as an excuse to throw the book at her and turn the incident into a propaganda opportunity for themselves. It's *bizarre* that people are hanging on the criminality when Russia is not a lawful state in the first place and none of this is straightforward.

Anyway, here is the Whelan family take.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:54 pm

A nonny mouse wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:46 pm The bullshit of "oh, I didn't know that was in my bag" is a childish response. You should have known what was in your God-damed bag.

Have you met people?

CNBC

“I forgot.”

That’s the number one reason Transportation Security Administration agents say they hear at airport security checkpoints when they catch a passenger with a firearm.

Of the 5,832 firearms stopped so far this year, as of Monday, nearly 88% were loaded, according to the TSA. The total number is quickly catching up to last year’s record of 5,972 – or approximately 17 guns a day.

I went to wedding at an airport hall in the 90s. One of the groomsmen was late because "he forgot" he was packing, didn't have a secure locker in his car, and had to go get rid of his firearm. As if he had any reason to be packing that day at all.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:26 pm multi tool,

I have thrown more of these away at airports, courts, and sporting events than I would care to admit. I don't forget about them, I don't realize the problem until it's too late. So now, yeah, I check my pockets before I go to any place like that.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:31 pm Sure it was technically illegal. The context still is that a generally lawless, criminal regime used it as an excuse to throw the book at her and turn the incident into a propaganda opportunity for themselves. It's *bizarre* that people are hanging on the criminality when Russia is not a lawful state in the first place and none of this is straightforward.

You fly over to a lawless, criminal regime to take their money, you take your chances.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:31 pm As if he had any reason to be packing that day at all.

You don't generally get to pick which days that packing matters.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:31 pm

I went to wedding at an airport hall in the 90s. One of the groomsmen was late because "he forgot" he was packing, didn't have a secure locker in his car, and had to go get rid of his firearm. As if he had any reason to be packing that day at all.

If you ever have a reason to be packing, you may want to rethink what you're doing.

That said, if you carry and drive, you should always have a secure storage container. Part of the responsibility.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:35 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:31 pm As if he had any reason to be packing that day at all.

You don't generally get to pick which days that packing matters.

You and I will have to have a different opinion on situational risk assessment. Also, when last I knew, in Michigan, you aren't allowed to pack in a place that serves alcohol. So even absent going to an airport, you need to leave your firearm in your car. But to leave it in your car, you need a secure locker. Poor judgement all the way around, just so he could be a young twenty something cool enough to carry a firearm, and that's what he was.

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:27 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:18 pm Regardless, she actually did it. She broke their laws and was arrested and convicted for it.

Paul Whelan is in jail accused of being a spay, which he and the US deny. It's an injustice if true and if not, and he actually is a US spy, we should be trying to get him back just as urgently, if not more so.

But I guess being a tik-tok/Kardashian/Twitter cause célèbre is what really matters.

This is a bad take. Even presuming that it's more important/just to get Whelan back than it was to get Griner back, sometimes you have to take what you can get. If the options were getting Griner back but not Whelan or getting neither back, then you take the former option. By all accounts I've seen, the administration was trying to get Whelan back too, but the Russians were unwilling.

It's just shades of negotiation. Holding out and getting neither back has been the strategy for a while. They made the decision to agree to the current deal for Bout. We can argue about whether it was a good deal or not but it's wrong to suggest that was the only option.

I mean this is the guy we released:

On 2 November 2011, Bout was convicted by a jury in a Manhattan federal court of conspiracy to kill U.S. citizens and officials, delivery of anti-aircraft missiles, and providing aid to a terrorist organization, and was sentenced to the minimum 25 years' imprisonment because the crime was due to the sting operation.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:41 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:35 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:31 pm As if he had any reason to be packing that day at all.

You don't generally get to pick which days that packing matters.

You and I will have to have a different opinion on situational risk assessment. Also, when last I knew, in Michigan, you aren't allowed to pack in a place that serves alcohol. So even absent going to an airport, you need to leave your firearm in your car. But to leave it in your car, you need a secure locker. Poor judgement all the way around, just so he could be a young twenty something cool enough to carry a firearm, and that's what he was.

Fair enough. You have more facts and nuance than I do.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:43 pmIt's just shades of negotiation. Holding out and getting neither back has been the strategy for a while. They made the decision to agree to the current deal for Bout. We can argue about whether it was a good deal or not but it's wrong to suggest that was the only option.

People can argue for sure but the majority of "us" (royal us) have almost none of the information that the administration does including human intelligence sources inside Russia. Without that we don't have any real insight about the whys. I'm not even going to say it was a good deal but it isn't something that deserves the vitriol we see. It's pretty depressing that an American is coming home and people's reaction is to find anger in it. It's also worse believing that is exactly what the Russians were aiming for as well.

I mean this is the guy we released:

On 2 November 2011, Bout was convicted by a jury in a Manhattan federal court of conspiracy to kill U.S. citizens and officials, delivery of anti-aircraft missiles, and providing aid to a terrorist organization, and was sentenced to the minimum 25 years' imprisonment because the crime was due to the sting operation.

FWIW by my math that means he was going to serve what -- maybe 7 or 8 more years. That's an even trade timewise but she was going to be suffering a whole lot more misery.

I've negotiated deals professionally, many quite complex, for 25 years. It's always beyond frustrating when someone who wasn't involved in the deal looks at the end result and says, "Well, why didn't you get X as part of the deal?" Buddy, I was working on that deal for six months and I tried to get X many times. Ultimately by conceding on X, though, I was able to get Y and Z. Is it the perfect deal for us? No, because the perfect deal would be getting X, Y, and Z. But it was better than not getting any deal at all.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:55 pm It's pretty depressing that an American is coming home and people's reaction is to find anger in it. It's also worse believing that is exactly what the Russians were aiming for as well.

I'm not angry, in fact I've said several times here that I'm glad she's coming home. I just think they there's some middle ground between "best we could do" and "terrible deal".

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:09 pm I've negotiated deals professionally, many quite complex, for 25 years. It's always beyond frustrating when someone who wasn't involved in the deal looks at the end result and says, "Well, why didn't you get X as part of the deal?" Buddy, I was working on that deal for six months and I tried to get X many times. Ultimately by conceding on X, though, I was able to get Y and Z. Is it the perfect deal for us? No, because the perfect deal would be getting X, Y, and Z. But it was better than not getting any deal at all.

I have too, for about the same amount of time. Once in a while TPTB need to see a walk to be reminded that compromise is necessary. But I have no issues with criticism as a measuring stick.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:24 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:55 pm It's pretty depressing that an American is coming home and people's reaction is to find anger in it. It's also worse believing that is exactly what the Russians were aiming for as well.

I'm not angry, in fact I've said several times here that I'm glad she's coming home. I just think they there's some middle ground between "best we could do" and "terrible deal".

Oh sorry - I thought I was being clear I was talking about the right-wing vitriol. It's OVER THE TOP right now. Not a huge shock but it's still depressing all the same. And I don't disagree on "grading it" except we have no good basis to grade it. My take is to call it a win and move on unless information that says otherwise comes out.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:24 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:09 pm I've negotiated deals professionally, many quite complex, for 25 years. It's always beyond frustrating when someone who wasn't involved in the deal looks at the end result and says, "Well, why didn't you get X as part of the deal?" Buddy, I was working on that deal for six months and I tried to get X many times. Ultimately by conceding on X, though, I was able to get Y and Z. Is it the perfect deal for us? No, because the perfect deal would be getting X, Y, and Z. But it was better than not getting any deal at all.

I have too, for about the same amount of time. Once in a while TPTB need to see a walk to be reminded that compromise is necessary. But I have no issues with criticism as a measuring stick.

But criticism needs to be informed to be of value, and I'd argue that we have very little actual information about what happened and how we got to this point. Your argument seems to be that we could have surely gotten a better deal that would have included Whelan or maybe gotten Whelan instead of Griner, but we just don't know that to be the case. The reporting seems to indicate that the US pushed hard for both of them but were not able to get both of them. Maybe I'm being naive and too trusting of the government's propaganda, but the government has no upside from leaving one (or both) of them behind. It seems more naive to think that we could have gotten both of them out if we had kept asking.

I'm not saying there was definitely a better deal involving Whelan to be had. Just that they deal they got wasn't worth making IMO. If that's all Russia was willing to do, time to back to the drawing board. Am I ignorant of most of the details and behind the scenes mechanisation? Absolutely.

Russia was rewarded for the arrest and overly harsh sentencing of a semi-famous, sympathetic US citizen.

I don't think there's a chance that you get a remotely even prisoner swap from Russia when we're dealing with this much publicity. It will stay in the news as critical of the administration here, but I suspect that the Russia media would be silent (until the uneven swap, after which they'd crow about it). So you can either make the grossly uneven swap or you can let Griner rot in a Russian prison in Siberia (I thought I read that's where she was) for a crime that is wildly disproportionate to the offense. I'm OK with holding our nose and making the deal in that scenario.

Also, the Whelan situation is wildly complex. He was convicted of espionage. Whether true or not, trying to trade him for a guy who got caught in an arms sting is an uphill battle. Worse, the Russians can clearly see this is politically sensitive in the United States so there is utility to them there. He is also a citizen of 3 other NATO nations as well and they all have an interest here. And that's just the surface level stuff.

The arms dealer's days as an arms dealer are over and done with. His networks have surely dried up and were fully traced by everyone from the CIA to Interpol to the FSB. He's still an evil fuck, but he'll no longer be a threat.

Plus, part of his methodology was to rip off what is now the Russian government. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a date with a top-floor Moscow window.

What the Russians got here was a propaganda win, the one now being magnified by right-wing media. I think it's worth holding our noses and accepting those terms in order to free an American from a Russian labor camp.

Whelan was never on the table. Or, if he was, the trade would be for betrayal of Ukraine.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:12 pm I'm not saying there was definitely a better deal involving Whelan to be had. Just that they deal they got wasn't worth making IMO. If that's all Russia was willing to do, time to back to the drawing board. Am I ignorant of most of the details and behind the scenes mechanisation? Absolutely.

Russia was rewarded for the arrest and overly harsh sentencing of a semi-famous, sympathetic US citizen.

This seems incredibly callous to me. This was a real person's life, not just a game piece.

On a geopolitical level, they're the same picture.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:26 pm Imagine if she had that in her bag when she played in the World Cup in Turkey.

Oh Brittney!!

Isgrimnur wrote:On a geopolitical level, they're the same picture.

When dealing with Russia, human life is meaningless. Better to get her back so she doesn’t become a hostage over our Ukraine support.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:44 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:12 pm I'm not saying there was definitely a better deal involving Whelan to be had. Just that they deal they got wasn't worth making IMO. If that's all Russia was willing to do, time to back to the drawing board. Am I ignorant of most of the details and behind the scenes mechanisation? Absolutely.

Russia was rewarded for the arrest and overly harsh sentencing of a semi-famous, sympathetic US citizen.

This seems incredibly callous to me. This was a real person's life, not just a game piece.

+1

It is sort of illustrative how we see references to Whelan's marine service that conveniently leaves out that he was convicted at court martial and left with a bad conduct discharge. It doesn't change that we need to get him out but the guy is no angel either.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:44 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:12 pm I'm not saying there was definitely a better deal involving Whelan to be had. Just that they deal they got wasn't worth making IMO. If that's all Russia was willing to do, time to back to the drawing board. Am I ignorant of most of the details and behind the scenes mechanisation? Absolutely.

Russia was rewarded for the arrest and overly harsh sentencing of a semi-famous, sympathetic US citizen.

This seems incredibly callous to me. This was a real person's life, not just a game piece.

In that case why is Marc Fogel any different? 14 years in a labor camp for possession of medicinal marijuana. Sounds very familiar.

Russia's tactical advantage over the US is their ability to view humans as game pieces. . And our tendency to get swept up in causes directed by social media. They do not GAF and they often control the narrative. They can, and do, foment both sides.

The Russians are the masters of asymmetric advantage. There is no "winning" there. So instead of trying to play a game we can't win we can show values such as decency. Decency won there. It's a shame that many Americans are indecent.