Ukraine

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Holman
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Holman »

Kurth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:46 pm
The drones were launched from Ukrainian territory, and at least one of the strikes was made with the help of special forces close to the base who helped guide the drones to the target, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity to convey sensitive information.
I guess I would have assumed that it's the case, but is this the first confirmation we've had that Ukrainian teams are operating deep inside Russia?

Most other incidents (fires and explosions at munitions plants, a few car bombs, etc) have so far been cloaked in deniability.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Kurth »

Holman wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:54 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:46 pm
The drones were launched from Ukrainian territory, and at least one of the strikes was made with the help of special forces close to the base who helped guide the drones to the target, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity to convey sensitive information.
I guess I would have assumed that it's the case, but is this the first confirmation we've had that Ukrainian teams are operating deep inside Russia?

Most other incidents (fires and explosions at munitions plants, a few car bombs, etc) have so far been cloaked in deniability.
I'm not certain, but my impression was this is the deepest behind enemy lines Ukrain has operated and that it's the most significant attack. Apparently, they had Ukrainian special forces personnel at the bases they attacked to guide the drones in.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Kraken »

Holman wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:54 pm
Kurth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:46 pm
The drones were launched from Ukrainian territory, and at least one of the strikes was made with the help of special forces close to the base who helped guide the drones to the target, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity to convey sensitive information.
I guess I would have assumed that it's the case, but is this the first confirmation we've had that Ukrainian teams are operating deep inside Russia?

Most other incidents (fires and explosions at munitions plants, a few car bombs, etc) have so far been cloaked in deniability.
The attack on the Kherson bridge was undertaken by partisans and/or special forces. Russia considers Crimea Russian. But AFAIK this is the first time Ukraine has "violated" the actual border.

Maybe stop destroying our infrastructure if you want your territory respected. I'd think that's a good tit-for-tat.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by hitbyambulance »

Holman wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:37 pm Probably it wasn't a Russian Orthodox service.
confirmed, it was definitely Protestant. https://ircusa.church/
It sounds like you're being proselytized.
oh for sure confirmed. boundaries have been established.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck »

Kurth wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:46 pm Meanwhile, Ukrainian Drones Hit 2 Military Bases Deep Within Russia.
KYIV, Ukraine — Ukraine executed its most brazen attack into Russian territory in the nine-month-old war on Monday, targeting two military bases hundreds of miles inside the country, using unmanned drones, according to the Russian Defense Ministry and a senior Ukrainian official.

The drones were launched from Ukrainian territory, and at least one of the strikes was made with the help of special forces close to the base who helped guide the drones to the target, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity to convey sensitive information.

The strikes signaled a new willingness by Kyiv to take the fight to bases in the heart of Russia, raising the stakes in the war, and demonstrated for the first time Ukraine’s ability to attack at such long distances. Shortly after the attacks on the bases, Russia sent a barrage of missiles streaking toward Ukrainian cities.
As if it weren't already real, shit's getting really real, now.
If these attacks are evidence of a new Ukranian weapon that can operate at that range and penetrate Russian air defenses in the process, I'd guess they're also designed to operate under winter conditions. Apparently that isn't something that Iran took into consideration when designing the drones they're supplying to Russia.

Russia has stopped using its Iranian suicide drones because they don't work in the cold, Ukraine says
Russia has stopped using Iranian-made kamikaze drones in Ukraine because they don't work in cold weather, a Ukrainian official said.

Yevgeny Silkin, of the Joint Forces Command for Strategic Communications of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, said that Russia had stopped using the Iranian drones, which are made of plastic and other materials that are not frost resistant, according to Ukrainian news agency UNIAN. 

The outlet said that the drones have not been used in Ukraine since November 17, which was also the first day that it snowed in Ukraine this year.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by malchior »

Time - Zelensky Person of the Year
The call from the President’s office came on a Saturday evening: Be ready to go the next day, an aide said, and pack a toothbrush. There were no details about the destination or how we would get there, but it wasn’t difficult to guess. Only two days earlier, on the 260th day of the invasion of Ukraine, the Russians had retreated from the city of Kherson. It was the only regional capital they had managed to seize since the start of the all-out war in February, and the Kremlin had promised it would forever be a part of Russia. Now Kherson was free, and Volodymyr Zelensky wanted to get there as soon as possible.

His bodyguards were urging him to wait. The Russians had destroyed the city’s infrastructure, leaving it with no water, power, or heat. Its outskirts were littered with mines. Government buildings were rigged with trip wires. On the highway to Kherson, an explosion had destroyed a bridge, rendering it impassable. As they fled, the Russians were also suspected of leaving behind agents and saboteurs who could try to ambush the presidential convoy, to assassinate Zelensky or take him hostage. There would be no way to ensure his safety on the central square, where crowds had gathered to celebrate the city’s liberation, within range of Russian artillery.

“My security was 100% against it,” the President told me during the trip. “They took it hard. They can’t control practically anything in a region that has just been de-occupied. So it’s a big risk, and, on my part, a bit reckless.”

Then why do it? The Russian goal at the start of the invasion had been to kill or capture Zelensky and decapitate his government. Why give them a chance to strike? The obvious reason had to do with the information war, which had become Zelensky’s specialty. By rolling into the city that Vladimir Putin still claimed as his own, the leader of Ukraine would blow a hole through the stories of conquest and imperial glory that Russian propagandists had been using for months to justify the war. Zelensky’s visit would deepen the embarrassment of the Russian retreat and strengthen the Ukrainian will to carry on through the winter.

But that was not the reason he gave for the trip. “It’s the people,” he told me in a two-hour interview as his private train rolled through the country. “Nine months they’ve been under occupation, without light, without anything. Yes, they’ve had two days of euphoria over their return to Ukraine. But those two days are over.” Soon the long road to recovery would come into view, and many of his citizens would want a return to normality, much faster than the state can deliver it. “They are going to fall into a depression now, and it will be very hard,” Zelensky explained. “As I see it, it’s my duty to go there and show them that Ukraine has returned, that it supports them. Maybe it will give them enough of a boost to last a few more days. But I’m not sure. I don’t lull myself with such illusions.”
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Re: Ukraine

Post by El Guapo »

I don't think that I have ever agreed with a Person of the Year selection more. Heckuva job, Zelensky.

That said, I'm inclined to agree with his security people - the decision to go to Kherson (while it turned out well) seems incredibly reckless.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by malchior »

No western leader would have been allowed to even do that. Usually according to their laws!
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Kraken »

He's definitely earned Great Leader status. Who would've thought that the former comedian would turn out to be the right man in the right place at the right time?
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Re: Ukraine

Post by LawBeefaroni »

El Guapo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:35 pm I don't think that I have ever agreed with a Person of the Year selection more. Heckuva job, Zelensky.

That said, I'm inclined to agree with his security people - the decision to go to Kherson (while it turned out well) seems incredibly reckless.
Calculated risk. The return on morale and international standing/support is high.

The decision for someone tasked with his safety is hells to the no but for someone looking to win the war it's a bit different.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by paulbaxter »

Kraken wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:56 pm He's definitely earned Great Leader status. Who would've thought that the former comedian would turn out to be the right man in the right place at the right time?
So has anyone here, besides me, been watching his show, Servant of the People?

It's really quite good, and it's available on Netflix. Of course there's just a bit of culture/language gap, but the humor is fairly broad. You get to see the general way politics is perceived in Ukraine, and you get both a sense of Zelensky's personality and why people voted for him in the first place. Highly recommended.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Blackhawk »

Kraken wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:56 pm He's definitely earned Great Leader status. Who would've thought that the former comedian would turn out to be the right man in the right place at the right time?
Will he be in Civ 7?
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:16 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:56 pm He's definitely earned Great Leader status. Who would've thought that the former comedian would turn out to be the right man in the right place at the right time?
Will he be in Civ 7?
I'm still (and actively) playing V believe it or not. I should look for a mod.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:10 am
Blackhawk wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:16 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:56 pm He's definitely earned Great Leader status. Who would've thought that the former comedian would turn out to be the right man in the right place at the right time?
Will he be in Civ 7?
I'm still (and actively) playing V believe it or not. I should look for a mod.
I have no idea if it's a good mod, but here's a fresh one in Steam Workshop: Volodymyr Zelenskiy - Ukraine
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Kraken »

Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:10 am
Blackhawk wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:16 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:56 pm He's definitely earned Great Leader status. Who would've thought that the former comedian would turn out to be the right man in the right place at the right time?
Will he be in Civ 7?
I'm still (and actively) playing V believe it or not. I should look for a mod.
I have no idea if it's a good mod, but here's a fresh one in Steam Workshop: Volodymyr Zelenskiy - Ukraine
Subscribed, thanks!
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Trait - Glory to Ukraine : 30% Combat bonus against units that require a more advanced Technology. Militaristic city states grant units twice as often when you are at war with a common foe.

Unique Unit - Azov Regiment : Replaces Paratrooper. Combat strength is equivalent to that of infantry, Gain a promotion that +15% Melee strength Combat Strength for units fighting in friendly territory.

Unique Unit - FGM-148 Javelin Anti Tank Soldie : Replaces Bazooka. Production is expensive, action is very low. Increases attack power or +1 range. Gain a promotion that +50% Combat Strength vs Armor Units.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Grifman »

Letterman on interviewing Zelensky:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/tv/2022/ ... -zelensky/
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Re: Ukraine

Post by El Guapo »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:07 pm Trait - Glory to Ukraine : 30% Combat bonus against units that require a more advanced Technology. Militaristic city states grant units twice as often when you are at war with a common foe.

Unique Unit - Azov Regiment : Replaces Paratrooper. Combat strength is equivalent to that of infantry, Gain a promotion that +15% Melee strength Combat Strength for units fighting in friendly territory.

Unique Unit - FGM-148 Javelin Anti Tank Soldie : Replaces Bazooka. Production is expensive, action is very low. Increases attack power or +1 range. Gain a promotion that +50% Combat Strength vs Armor Units.
Doesn't look that great, TBH. Seems like his main ability is only useful if you're behind technologically - I'd rather have a leader that helps me stay ahead in technology.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Max Peck »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:31 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:07 pm Trait - Glory to Ukraine : 30% Combat bonus against units that require a more advanced Technology. Militaristic city states grant units twice as often when you are at war with a common foe.

Unique Unit - Azov Regiment : Replaces Paratrooper. Combat strength is equivalent to that of infantry, Gain a promotion that +15% Melee strength Combat Strength for units fighting in friendly territory.

Unique Unit - FGM-148 Javelin Anti Tank Soldie : Replaces Bazooka. Production is expensive, action is very low. Increases attack power or +1 range. Gain a promotion that +50% Combat Strength vs Armor Units.
Doesn't look that great, TBH. Seems like his main ability is only useful if you're behind technologically - I'd rather have a leader that helps me stay ahead in technology.
I think the mod is meming on the current conflict. I'd guess that trait is intended to reflect Ukrainian resilience in the face of Russian aggression, but it misrepresents the actual conflict -- Russia isn't exactly what I'd call "technologically superior" to Ukraine. Something that reflects Zelenskyy's charisma and inspirational leadership would probably be better, but I don't know enough about Civ V game mechanics to suggest how that might be implemented.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Yeah, instead of using tech as the variable, probably should have used combat strength modifiers (the old spearman vs tank saw).

When fighting a stronger foe, the Ukrainian gets a 15% bonus.

Or maybe “One Against Many”. When fighting in your home territory, units gets a 25% combat bonus or something.

(Or maybe morale: when an aggressor declares war on you, increase happiness by X).
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Carpet_pissr »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:31 pm I'd rather have a leader that helps me stay ahead in technology.
If you play on Immortal or Deity, you start (and usually stay) behind for much of the game, so it's useful in that context.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Defiant »

Russia is turning to decades-old ammunition with high failure rates as it burns through its stockpiles to carry out its nearly 10-month-old invasion of Ukraine, a senior U.S. military official said on Monday.

"They have drawn from (Russia's) aging ammunition stockpile, which does indicate that they are willing to use that older ammunition, some of which was originally produced more than 40 years ago," the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/bu ... 022-12-12/
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Pyperkub »

Defiant wrote: Mon Dec 12, 2022 7:28 pm
Russia is turning to decades-old ammunition with high failure rates as it burns through its stockpiles to carry out its nearly 10-month-old invasion of Ukraine, a senior U.S. military official said on Monday.

"They have drawn from (Russia's) aging ammunition stockpile, which does indicate that they are willing to use that older ammunition, some of which was originally produced more than 40 years ago," the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/bu ... 022-12-12/
Hmmm

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Zaxxon »

Letterman's Netflix show, My Next Guest, has an interview with Zelenskyy out today.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by $iljanus »

Looks like the next piece of US military hardware to be sent to Ukraine will be...

The Patriot Missile Defense System

I think since Russia has been reduced to lobbing missiles at Ukraine and infrastructure is taking a beating it's the logical step to take.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Default »

I think theglide bombs bolted to off-the-shelf rocket motors via Lockheed Martin are going to perk up the Ukrainian forces a bit.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by LawBeefaroni »

$iljanus wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:20 pm Looks like the next piece of US military hardware to be sent to Ukraine will be...

The Patriot Missile Defense System

I think since Russia has been reduced to lobbing missiles at Ukraine and infrastructure is taking a beating it's the logical step to take.
The detractors are saying that it's stupid to shoot down $30K drones with $3M Patriot missiles, stating a 100:1 cost discrepancy. I'd argue that scarcity is more important than market value and I don't know that Russia even has 100 drones for each patriot. Crippling Russia's capability, or forcing them to ground drones to save them, is worth it. And you're also protecting $Billions in infrastructure.

Plus Russia will get the bill anyway.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Unagi »

plus People.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Unagi wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:17 pmplus People.
People are war infrastructure.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Isgrimnur »

The War on Terror will tell you all about using TOWs against two guys on a motorbike.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by El Guapo »

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:03 pm The War on Terror will tell you all about using TOWs against two guys on a motorbike.


Sorry, I just can't see a TOW missile reference without posting that.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Blackhawk »

Having watched the world's reaction to Russia, I can't help but wonder if China is going to be a little more circumspect about its plans for Taiwan.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by El Guapo »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:26 pm Having watched the world's reaction to Russia, I can't help but wonder if China is going to be a little more circumspect about its plans for Taiwan.
I think it complicates things for sure. That said, there are factors running the other direction as well (governments / peoples won't be excited to do this adventure again). Plus I'm sure they are paying attention to what Russia did wrong and learning from it.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Grifman »

Great long form article on the war from the Russian perspective:

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Re: Ukraine

Post by $iljanus »

Grifman wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:36 pm Great long form article on the war from the Russian perspective:

I read that NYT article and it was pretty exhaustive and a good read (if you have a NYT subscription which I have).

It wouldn’t be easy and will certainly be bloody but someone in Russia should do something about their current leadership situation. The sad thing is that at the end of the article there was this comment.
Aleksandr had been drafted in September along with three close childhood friends, he said. He and another suffered concussions. One lost both legs. The fourth is missing.

But when he is discharged from the hospital, he said, he fully expects to return to Ukraine, and would do so willingly.

“This is how we are raised,” he said. “We grew up in our country understanding that it doesn’t matter how our country treats us. Maybe this is bad. Maybe this is good. Maybe there are things we do not like about our government.”

But, he added, “when a situation like this arises, we get up and go.”
If that’s the prevailing attitude then it’s gonna be a long war. But hey, if you’re going to be sheep Vladimir’s war…shrug
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Blackhawk »

It's hard to beat a lifetime of conditioning in an environment where alternate viewpoints are suppressed. I reminds me that my condemnation of the Russian government shouldn't extend to its citizenry (at least not to the same extent - which gets complicated.)
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Re: Ukraine

Post by LordMortis »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:07 pm I reminds me that my condemnation of the Russian government shouldn't extend to its citizenry (at least not to the same extent - which gets complicated.)
It especially shouldn't, as it will likely need to be the citizenry that enacts changes and the ultimately embraces them. Short of another total war, what is the alternative?
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Blackhawk »

And yet (and this sounds more heartless than it is), if the citizenry don't suffer for the war, why would they enact change? That's a big component of the tools that we're using after all - economic pressure, business boycotts, etc. It affects the tax revenue, but it also makes the citizens unhappy to increase internal pressure.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by LordMortis »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:22 pm And yet (and this sounds more heartless than it is), if the citizenry don't suffer for the war, why would they enact change? That's a big component of the tools that we're using after all - economic pressure, business boycotts, etc. It affects the tax revenue, but it also makes the citizens unhappy to increase internal pressure.
They're dying. They're literally paying for it. And they're not doing it for their own enrichment and security. But yeah, short of being refugees, they should be shunned. I wouldn't want the Russian Pride that invades its neighbors as my neighbor and I wouldn't want to trade stuff with them. But then I also don't want contemporary American Proud as my neighbor or to trade with them either.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Blackhawk »

They are dying, and yet
“This is how we are raised,” he said. “We grew up in our country understanding that it doesn’t matter how our country treats us. Maybe this is bad. Maybe this is good. Maybe there are things we do not like about our government.”

But, he added, “when a situation like this arises, we get up and go.”
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