Octopus Overlords

El Guapo wrote:

GargoyleBoy wrote:I think it's a mental trap to assume that the Kremlin didn't sanction it because it hurts them in the end. People make mistakes. So do governments. We can't assume the people at the Kremlin automatically know what's best for Russia, any more than our own government knows what's best for the U.S.

Sure. And there are probably anti-semites within Russia's government. That said, absent inside knowledge that it would make very little sense for Russia to do it is a reasonable basis for surmising that Russia probably did not do it.

GargoyleBoy wrote:

El Guapo wrote:

GargoyleBoy wrote:I think it's a mental trap to assume that the Kremlin didn't sanction it because it hurts them in the end. People make mistakes. So do governments. We can't assume the people at the Kremlin automatically know what's best for Russia, any more than our own government knows what's best for the U.S.

Sure. And there are probably anti-semites within Russia's government. That said, absent inside knowledge that it would make very little sense for Russia to do it is a reasonable basis for surmising that Russia probably did not do it.

Except: a) They can shuffle the task off to a regional agent, a couple steps removed from anyone with real authority

b) They know that they can denounce it (as they already have done)

So what on the face would be a net loss for them ends up (they hope) looking like the actions of "rogue agents" - absolving them of any responsibility while still contributing to the instability of the area. If they get away with it.

My entire POINT is that the whole region is so messed up right now we CAN'T know who's responsible with any certainty. You can make assumptions (as you have) but that doesn't make them fact.

The fact is we don't know.

Antisemitism is one of the most common expressions of xenophobia in post-Soviet Russia, even among some groups of politicians.[ Despite stipulations against fomenting hatred based on ethnic or religious grounds (Article 282 of Russian Federation Penal Code), antisemitic pronouncements, speeches and articles are not uncommon in Russia, and there are a large number of antisemitic neo-Nazi groups in the republics of the former Soviet Union, leading Pravda to declare in 2002 that "Anti-Semitism is booming in Russia". Over the past few years there have also been bombs attached to antisemitic signs, apparently aimed at Jews, and other violent incidents, including stabbings, have been recorded.

The government of Vladimir Putin takes an official stand against antisemitism, while some movements parties and groups are explicitly antisemitic. In January 2005, a group of 15 Duma members demanded that Judaism and Jewish organizations be banned from Russia. In June, 500 prominent Russians, including some 20 members of the nationalist Rodina party, demanded that the state prosecutor investigate ancient Jewish texts as "anti-Russian" and ban Judaism. An investigation was in fact launched, but halted after an international outcry.

GreenGoo wrote:What would be Putin's motive for publicly going after the Jews in such a fashion that it very clearly brings to mind the atrocities of WWII? It's fine to say people make mistakes, but what on earth would he be trying to accomplish?

Unless we assume he's actually an anti-semite who really does want to get rid of the Jews? What do we know about the 200k or so jewish population in Russia?

We need to know what Russia was trying to do before we can suggest that they made a mistake.

GreenGoo wrote:What would be Putin's motive for publicly going after the Jews in such a fashion that it very clearly brings to mind the atrocities of WWII? It's fine to say people make mistakes, but what on earth would he be trying to accomplish?

A number of the main actors in the pro-Russian protests in the Donetsk region have strong links with far-right parties. Pavel Gubarev, for example, is a Donetsk business owner and the head of the "People's Militia". On March 1, he was supposedly elected "people's governor" and led a crowd in storming the Donetsk regional administration building, demanding that a referendum be held on the oblast's secession and calling for Russian military intervention. His detention was presented by Russian TV channels as politically motivated persecution. They preferred not to delve into Gubarev's ideological roots as a member of the neo-Nazi Russian National Unity Party.

Gubarev, and a number of other leading figures in the Donetsk federalist protests, are members of Natalya Vitrenko's Progressive Socialist Party. That party was singled out by Josef Zissels, head of the Euro-Asian Jewish Congress when he rejected Russian claims that the EuroMaidan protesters were anti-Semitic. He said that the Congress which monitors anti-Semitism and xenophobia had instead found a lot of anti-Semitic material on pro-Russian sites like that of the Progressive Socialist Party (PSP) aimed at inciting antagonism to EuroMaidan. The latter was presented as having been instigated by Jews.

A rather small rally in Mykolaiv on April 6 declared another PSP supporter, Dmitry Nikonov, "people's governor", while two members - Alexander Kharytonov and Alexander Kravtsov - are leading figures in the Luhansk Guard, a major separatist organisation in the south-east. Kravtsov is also involved in organisations with neo-Nazi leanings.

paulbaxter wrote:Yanukovich:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 44461.html

Leaders of the G-7 announced late Friday they had agreed to "move swiftly" to impose new sanctions against Russia over its continued role in the unrest in Ukraine.

A statement released by the White House said the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom, the United States, the President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission "have now agreed that we will move swiftly to impose additional sanctions on Russia.

"Given the urgency of securing the opportunity for a successful and peaceful democratic vote next month in Ukraine's presidential elections, we have committed to act urgently to intensify targeted sanctions and measures to increase the costs of Russia's actions."

While not addressing any specific actions, the statement said, "We reiterate our strong condemnation of Russia's illegal attempt to annex Crimea and Sevastopol, which we do not recognize. We will now follow through on the full legal and practical consequences of this illegal annexation, including but not limited to the economic, trade and financial areas."

GreenGoo wrote:Did I miss something?

What sanctions are in place now, that they are going with "additional" sanctions?

GreenGoo wrote:Did I miss something?

What sanctions are in place now, that they are going with "additional" sanctions?

Rip wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:Did I miss something?

What sanctions are in place now, that they are going with "additional" sanctions?

Try looking back to pages 14-18 of this very thread.

Speaking on Friday, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said that any extra European measures would likely fall within the scope of "second stage" sanctions, which are much less punitive than the "third stage" sanctions that would target key sectors of the Russian economy.

In effect, many of the new measures could simply mean adding further names of Russian officials to an existing list who face visa and asset bans.

Senior European Union diplomats will reportedly meet in Brussels on Monday to consider a fresh round of sanctions against Russia over the crisis in Ukraine.

Ambassadors from the 28 member states "will meet on Monday 28 April with a view to the adoption of an additional list of 'stage 2' sanctions," such as asset freezes and travel bans, said an EU official speaking on condition of anonymity.

A list adding 15 people to the 55 Russians and Ukrainians already blacklisted by the EU was approved in principle on the eve of the Geneva talks on April 17, an EU diplomat said.

But the EU refrained from putting the sanctions into effect immediately, in order to give the peace accord a better chance of success.

Unagi wrote:Rip, this is what you were waiting for, finally?

The mayor of Ukraine's second-largest city was shot in the back and pro-Russia insurgents seized more government buildings Monday as the U.S. hit Russia with more sanctions for allegedly fomenting the unrest in eastern Ukraine.
...
Hennady Kernes, the mayor of Kharkiv, was shot in the back Monday morning, underwent surgery and "doctors are fighting for his life," city hall said.

Kharkiv city hall spokesman Yuri Sydorenko told the Interfax news agency Kernes was shot while cycling on the outskirts of the city. Officials have not commented on who could be behind the attack.
...
Kernes was a staunch opponent of the pro-West Maidan movement that toppled President Viktor Yanukovych in February and was widely viewed as the organizer of activists sent to Kyiv from eastern Ukraine to harass those demonstrators.

But he has since softened his stance toward the new Kyiv government. At a meeting of eastern Ukrainian leaders and acting Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk earlier this month, Kernes insisted he does not support the pro-Russia insurgents and backed a united Ukraine.

Rip wrote:

Unagi wrote:Rip, this is what you were waiting for, finally?

Finally making more movement. I expected this long ago and to actually be getting into more effective action by now. We are moving the right direction but at a far slower pace than I desire. Still at least there continues to be movement in the right direction which is far better than doing nothing.

raydude wrote:"Make your opponent believe that there is a road to safety, and thus prevent his fighting with the courage of despair." - Sun Tzu

“Intel is producing taped conversations of intelligence operatives taking their orders from Moscow and everybody can tell the difference in the accents, in the idioms, in the language. We know exactly who’s giving those orders, we know where they are coming from,” Kerry said at a private meeting of the Trilateral Commission in Washington. A recording of Kerry’s remarks was obtained by The Daily Beast.

Kerry didn’t name specific Russian officials implicated in the recordings. But he claimed that the intercepts provided proof of the Russians deliberately fomenting unrest in eastern Ukraine—and lying about it to U.S. officials and the public.

“It’s not an accident that you have some of the same people identified who were in Crimea and in Georgia and who are now in east Ukraine,” said Kerry. “This is insulting to everybody’s intelligence, let alone to our notions about how we ought to be behaving in the 21st century. It’s thuggism, it’s rogue state-ism. It’s the worst order of behavior.”

The intercepts also come as more proof has mounted inside Ukraine that Russia is behind the provocations, uprisings and other actions aimed at ripping the country apart. On Monday Ukraine's internal security service claimed they caught the self appointed separatist deputy mayor of Slavyansk with cash and encryption equipment on a return trip from Moscow. Last month, The Daily Beast reported the first signs of a Russian shadow invasion of Ukraine, noting Ukrainian arrests in eastern cities of people suspected of espionage.

GreenGoo wrote:Meh. Everyone knows they are lying. Proof might be useful, but I think it's just a campaign of dis-information for general public, and proof won't necessarily be effective in stopping that.

Everyone from the west knows they are full of shit. Everyone from Russia has their media controlled and won't have access to this proof anyway, although I suppose some of it will trickle in through the internet.

I get that this gives evidence to back up one side's stance while undercutting the other side's, I just don't see how this changes much.

Even without this proof, we should have been acting as if it were true anyway. This is not a court of law. When you know something to be fact, you act on it as if it is fact (because it is). Proof that it is true is not required.

It solidifies the west's stance, but....what pratical difference does it make?

Ukraine's military has stepped up its own activity, including the launch Friday of its biggest push yet to reassert control over parts of the nation's east.
Earlier this week, acting Ukrainian President Oleksandr Turchynov acknowledged that the central government has effectively lost control of the country's Donetsk and Luhansk regions to the pro-Russian separatists.
The violence has spilled over into cities like Odessa, on the Black Sea. Saturday there was calm relative to the previous day -- when 46 people died in a blaze and clashes, a spokesperson for the local prosecutor's office told CNN -- with the frustration palpable on the city streets.

It's in Luhansk where separatist leader Valeriy Bolotov on Saturday declared a state of emergency and announced the formation of a "South-East" army for the entire region.
In a video statement aired on local stations, Bolotov also introduced a curfew, a ban on political parties, and his expectation that local law enforcement officials will take an oath of allegiance to the people of Luhansk.
"In case of not following this, you will be announced traitors of people of Luhansk and wartime measures will be taken against you," he announced in the video statement.
Bolotov stated that the new armed forces wouldn't just protect the region, it would try to move forward to take Ukraine's capital.
"We are not going to sit and wait until we are encircled and burned," he said.

Chrisoc13 wrote:Of course we are at fault... Please.

Btw not saying you think that, it just made me laugh. Although it could be argued Russia did save Europe from Hitler. Certainly I don't think the allies would have won without Russia. Maybe they would have though who knows.

Chrisoc13 wrote:Of course we are at fault... Please.

Btw not saying you think that, it just made me laugh. Although it could be argued Russia did save Europe from Hitler. Certainly I don't think the allies would have won without Russia. Maybe they would have though who knows.

GreenGoo wrote:Oh yeah, also Russia saved Europe from Hitler, those Ukrainians need to pay attention to history.

Holman wrote:There's no denying that, when the war was going full steam, it was the Russians who inflicted the great majority of German casualties and tied down most German war production. If the German forces committed to the East had been available in the West, D-Day and the advances afterward would have been impossible. The Russians didn't beat Hitler alone, but they put way more blood and struggle into it than we did.

Isgrimnur wrote:And without Lend Lease support from the Allies, there might not have been an unoccupied Moscow from which to push the Germans back.

Grifman wrote: That said, your Russian friend should study some history himself.

GreenGoo wrote:

Grifman wrote: That said, your Russian friend should study some history himself.

Just a reminder that this "friend" was random phone technician working on my home line.

Holman wrote:That said, Putin is still a douchebag who deserves to be isolated and cast down.