[News] Girl stabbed 19 times by friends to please Slenderman

[Isgrimnur]

WSJ

Two 12-year-old Wisconsin girls accused of stabbing their friend nearly to death in the woods to please a fictional character allegedly struggled to decide who should actually do the deed and expressed at least some regret to detectives, according to court documents.

The girls, both from Waukesha, a Milwaukee suburb, told investigators they had been planning to kill their 12-year-old friend for months to please Slenderman, a fictional demonlike creature they learned about through a horror website, according to a criminal complaint.

Both girls were charged as adults with first-degree attempted homicide Monday in Waukesha County Circuit Court; they each face up to 60 years in prison if convicted. A court commissioner set bail at $500,000 cash per child.
...
They allegedly backed out of that plan, deciding to kill her on Saturday in a nearby park bathroom so blood could be disposed of through a drain. The complaint said the pair convinced the girl to go to the park with them on the day and got her into the bathroom, but neither could bring themselves to stab the victim.

They went into the woods, where one girl allegedly pushed the victim down and sat on her. The girls then traded the knife back and forth between them before one of them finally tackled the victim again and began stabbing her, according to the complaint.

The girls allegedly left the victim lying in the woods. She crawled to a road where a bicyclist found her lying on the sidewalk. Police arrived and she gave them the name of one of the girls who attacked her.

The victim suffered 19 stab wounds; one missed a major artery near her heart by a millimeter, doctors told police. She was in stable condition Monday.

[McNutt]

I read an article about this and it was posing the question as to whether girls that age were aware of the seriousness of what they were doing. Not just from a legal standpoint, but from a "this is a really bad thing to do to someone" standpoint. When I was twelve I was a year away from high school. I was quite aware of right and wrong and could completely understand that something such as a Slenderman was just a fairy tale. Either these girls are shockingly mentally retarded or they are just evil and made up a Slenderman excuse.

[funnygirl]

I can't even wrap my brain around this even though I know how mean adolescent girls can be. If it was my daughter or granddaughter that was the victim, I would probably be gung ho to see these nasty little bitches tried and sentenced as adults, but I really don't think they could have had any realistic concept of what they were doing. When I heard about this on the news this morning I just felt sick.

[Moliere]

they had been planning to kill their 12-year-old friend for months to please Slenderman, a fictional demonlike creature they learned about through a horror website, according to a criminal complaint.

How did they know this would please Slenderman? Why this particular girl?

[PLW]

Yeah... this is going to turn out to have nothing to do with "Creepy-Pasta". My prediction: teen angst/relationship stuff taken too far.

[McNutt]

I really don't think they could have had any realistic concept of what they were doing.

At what age does one realize that repeatedly stabbing a person in an attempt to kill them is wrong? I don't know when that concept sinks in, but it's certainly long before you're 12.

[Blackhawk]

Knowing it is legally wrong, sure, but a comprehension of it being morally wrong? Not necessarily. These were elementary school age kids. Compassion and an understanding of suffering and the permanence of death don't necessarily kick in that young unless someone has taken the time to instill them.

That wasn't meant to excuse the behavior. I honestly don't know where I stand on how to react to something like this.

[ImLawBoy]

Either these girls are shockingly mentally retarded . . . .

I've been trying to be good about this and not be all PC about it, but that's really a horrible, horrible thing to say. Whether you're using it as a clinical term (it has long been out of favor clinically, and even the Supreme Court just made note of the fact that they would use the term "intellectually disabled" instead of mentally retarded) or as a perjorative (as if my sweet, gentle son and others who would have in the past been labeled MR are equivalent to these monstrous girls), it's just wrong. I'll get off my soapbox now, but it's the second time I've seen this slur used on the forums today, and it really, really bugs me.

[Smoove_B]

I suspect the lawsuits will start soon -- from the Hamilton Spectator:

Lexie Leuzinger, a sixth-grader at Horning Middle School —which the alleged attackers and their victim attended —sat next to Weier in class. Leuzinger said Weier had a picture of Slenderman as the background on her iPad and often read horror stories on the web site CreepyPasta. She said Weier and Geyser were good friends with the victim.

Why does that matter?

And while school officials supplied iPads at the beginning of the year and promised to monitor them periodically, they never did, the Leuzingers said. But on Monday, teachers collected all the iPads.

[Blackhawk]

Oops. That's a panicked CYA right there.

I'd been wondering why the kids' parents had allowed them unrestricted access to horror sites.

Hopefully the fallout doesn't have a big negative impact on tech implementation in the classroom.

[Isgrimnur]

And how in the world are the parents privy to whether or not the schools were monitoring the iPads' content? And if kids reading horror is actionable, someone needs to go pull James Howe's and R. L. Stine's books out of the school library.

[Blackhawk]

There is a difference between horror literature (in the examples given, young adult horror literature) and random internet horror sites.

[Smoove_B]

Right. Everyone knows books are fiction. But if you see it on the internet, it must be true. Like the endangered tree octopus.

87.5 percent of the seventh-grade subjects judged the Web page to be "reliable." More than half went so far as to call it "very reliable."

[silverjon]

I was quite aware of right and wrong and could completely understand that something such as a Slenderman was just a fairy tale.

Bonsai Kitten is a real product and we need to express our outrage and shut these monsters down.
Dihydrogen monoxide is dangerous and needs to be a controlled substance.
Bill Gates will pay you to forward emails.
Etc.

Don't set your expectations too high about what people will and will not believe, even when they are adults.

At 12, the Candyman was far too real to actually say his name the third time. Not worth the risk.

It's not any kind of excuse for actually hurting someone, but trust me, 12 is an age capable of cooking up and believing elaborate fantasies.

Do you have any idea how many comments on Creepypasta content amount to "omg, is this real!?"

[Rip]

Yea, I heard there is this one site out there where they think that Octopuses are going to take over the planet and become overlords to humans..

[coopasonic]

R. L. Stine

Dihydrogen monoxide is dangerous and needs to be a controlled substance.
Bill Gates will pay you to forward emails.
At 12, the Candyman was far too real to actually say his name the third time. Not worth the risk.

That is the entirety of references I understand in this thread. I am not sure I am prepared to prepare children to live in this world.

[silverjon]

Your kids probably don't have to worry about Bonsai Kittens. Old news.

[McNutt]

Either these girls are shockingly mentally retarded . . . .

I've been trying to be good about this and not be all PC about it, but that's really a horrible, horrible thing to say. Whether you're using it as a clinical term (it has long been out of favor clinically, and even the Supreme Court just made note of the fact that they would use the term "intellectually disabled" instead of mentally retarded) or as a perjorative (as if my sweet, gentle son and others who would have in the past been labeled MR are equivalent to these monstrous girls), it's just wrong. I'll get off my soapbox now, but it's the second time I've seen this slur used on the forums today, and it really, really bugs me.

My apologies. I certainly did not mean to use it as a slur and instead used an outdated term to refer to intellectually disabled when I should have known better. I also don't think being intellectually disabled equates to thinking that it's not wrong to stab someone repeatedly.

[ImLawBoy]

I appreciate the apology. Thanks.

[Paingod]

I appreciate the apology. Thanks.

I try to avoid using the "R" word, but certainly grew up in a generation that used it to describe many a thing that was "lame, dumb, or stupid" - and in cases like this one, I'd prefer to use a phrase like "seriously touched" as in "something is very very broken in their heads" - but I don't know the PC level of those things.

At any rate - At 12 I certainly knew the difference between reality and fiction and wouldn't ever have considered trying to appease Cthulhu with human sacrifices... and yeah at 12 - Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary ... Bloody ... Nah. I'm gonna turn the light on.

[tgb]

[GreenGoo]

I appreciate the apology. Thanks.

I try to avoid using the "R" word, but certainly grew up in a generation that used it to describe many a thing that was "lame, dumb, or stupid"

This is my deal too. Someone else used it in the office last week and it stood out like a 4 alarm fire in my brain. Yet I do it all too regularly. I DO try to keep it under wraps and often apologize when it slips out, but it is ingrained from years of use.

So I apologize too, but I'm working on it.

My kids are enthralled with Slenderman stuff. The internet is full of it and I recently saw a video of a Sonic game that actually had Slenderman in the background in multiple places (was pretty cool actually).

I guess I'll have a chat with them to remind them that stabbing people to death is not ok.

[Fretmute]

I really don't think they could have had any realistic concept of what they were doing.

At what age does one realize that repeatedly stabbing a person in an attempt to kill them is wrong? I don't know when that concept sinks in, but it's certainly long before you're 12.

It seems as if we've (the nation, not you and I) previously agreed that it's 18. Perhaps we can revisit the number, but sliding scales to suit prosecutorial whims are puppies.

[Daehawk]

I think I knew much younger..like say forever. As far as I can remember I knew right from wrong.

[funnygirl]

I really don't think they could have had any realistic concept of what they were doing.

At what age does one realize that repeatedly stabbing a person in an attempt to kill them is wrong? I don't know when that concept sinks in, but it's certainly long before you're 12.

Yes, I have no doubt that they knew what they were doing was wrong. What I meant was that like others have said, knowing something is wrong and understanding death and its implications and permanence are very different things.

I vividly remember when my father died and my daughter accompanied me to the funeral; an exceptionally bright, logical and analytic 12 year old. After the funeral she surprised me when she said she really had had no concept of what death was prior to this. Seeing death and gore and mayhem on television or online is vastly different from encountering it in real life.

[Kraken]

For my fellow clueless geezers: I just had to google Slenderman. He looks like one of the thin men from X-Com, except he has no face and some pictures give him extra arms or tentacles. I can believe that he required this sacrifice.

[Biyobi]

I vividly remember when my father died and my daughter accompanied me to the funeral; an exceptionally bright, logical and analytic 12 year old.

I thought MHS was your only daughter.

[LawBeefaroni]

They made a conscious decision to sacrifice an innocent person in order to protect themselves from a vague, unseen, most likely non-existent threat. Yet they did their best to make the other one do the actually killing. They deserve as much punishment as they can get but why do I have this feeling that they are a less abnormal than any of us care to admit?

[miltonite]

Right. Everyone knows books are fiction. But if you see it on the internet, it must be true. Like the endangered tree octopus.

I for one welcome out new tree inhabiting overlords!

Also I find it funny that they are still referring to the 2 assailants as friends. I think I would quit being friends with someone after the 4th stab, that is is they were little stabs, if they were full on stabs I would have serious second thoughts after the first.

I am happy the girl could get help and they she had no problems pointing out the 2 attackers. I am also seriously worried about the future of the world if there are even a small percentage of people that think Slender Man is real and think that they need to "please" him to keep him away or maybe be his friend. What happened to regular imaginary friends that liked to have tea?

[funnygirl]

I vividly remember when my father died and my daughter accompanied me to the funeral; an exceptionally bright, logical and analytic 12 year old.

I thought MHS was your only daughter.

[gameoverman]

I remember kids, including me, 'playing' in elementary school even in the fifth and sixth grades. If a kid is playing, well that's a pretty good sign you're a kid still. No one 'played' in Jr high and high school.

So I would be inclined to see these girls as not being fully responsible for adult level intent, and intent is everything in this kind of crime. Lock them up till they are 21, then hope for the best.

edit: By playing I don't mean an organized game or gym class or sport, I mean made up random kid games.

[EvilHomer3k]

My oldest son it 10. He knows about slenderman. He knows slenderman is not real. My 9 year old does as well. I will say that my 9 year old thins he needs 5 hour energy, though.

I know what they do on our ipad. I know what internet sites they go to. I know what video games they play. I allow them to play games that most people feel are inappropriate. We discuss those games and what is inappropriate about them and how they should not act and what they should not say (they've heard lots of bad words, seen realistic violence, and even some nudity). I feel the important thing is not to shield them from these things but to discuss them and how they relate to reality. We have limits, of course (south park is out for instance) but I monitor their activity as much as I can, talk with them about what they watch/play, and am involved in those things.

I would want access to any school provided device as well so that I could monitor that.

[tgb]

I was at David Slenderman's Bar Mitzvah and there was nothing like this going on.

[Blackhawk]

I know what they do on our ipad. I know what internet sites they go to. I know what video games they play. I allow them to play games that most people feel are inappropriate. We discuss those games and what is inappropriate about them and how they should not act and what they should not say (they've heard lots of bad words, seen realistic violence, and even some nudity). I feel the important thing is not to shield them from these things but to discuss them and how they relate to reality. We have limits, of course (south park is out for instance) but I monitor their activity as much as I can, talk with them about what they watch/play, and am involved in those things.

Wow. We'd parent well together.

[Drazzil]

Either these girls are shockingly mentally retarded . . . .

I've been trying to be good about this and not be all PC about it, but that's really a horrible, horrible thing to say.

You do know that the US government still uses this term right? Wikipedia says that the terms used to describe intellectual disability is subject to what it calls a "euphemism treadmill" In other words new terms created to describe this condition are becoming terms of insult. I can totally see how you would be offended by the term, but as the target of this word, a lot in my life, I have to say I'm not offended by it.

[LawBeefaroni]

Either these girls are shockingly mentally retarded . . . .

I've been trying to be good about this and not be all PC about it, but that's really a horrible, horrible thing to say.

You do know that the US government still uses this term right?

As rarely as possible.

I can totally see how you would be offended by the term, but as the target of this word, a lot in my life, I have to say I'm not offended by it.

That's not exactly a great barometer. The fact that you were the "target" of the word further emphasizes that it is used as a derogatory term. I've been called several things that didn't offend me but I still recognize them as highly offensive.

[ImLawBoy]

Either these girls are shockingly mentally retarded . . . .

I've been trying to be good about this and not be all PC about it, but that's really a horrible, horrible thing to say.

You do know that the US government still uses this term right? Wikipedia says that the terms used to describe intellectual disability is subject to what it calls a "euphemism treadmill" In other words new terms created to describe this condition are becoming terms of insult. I can totally see how you would be offended by the term, but as the target of this word, a lot in my life, I have to say I'm not offended by it.

As LawBeef's link points out, Rosa's Law removed the term from most federal uses in 2010, and many states are removing it. I don't disagree that MR is a once acceptable term that has become an insult, but that doesn't change that it is now primarily used as an insult, and it's use as an acceptable clinical term is vanishing, if not completely gone already. Also, your lack of offense at the term doesn't really change its offensiveness to most.

Finally, the real issue here was with how the term was used in this case, where it was implied that there is some kind of correlation between intellectual disability and horrific violence (something which McNutt sincerely apologized for). While I'm sure there are violent people who also have ID, there are more people with ID who are not violent (much less would perform such a heinous act), and there are plenty of violent murderers who do not have ID. That's what really led me to speak out here. I don't do it every time I see someone casually use the term retarded (although I do hate it every time), but there are some circumstances where I feel it's important to speak up, and this was one of them.

[McNutt]

I don't think ID has anything to do with a desire to do harm to others in this case. What I was trying to say is that for a 12 year old to not understand that a) what they were doing was wrong, b) it would not make them welcome in a fantasy character's mansion, and c) death is permanent, seemed to indicate a severe lack of mental capacity. I don't buy their excuse. The fact that they actually stabbed the girl was just pure evil, not innocent kids getting caught up in fantasy.

[Moliere]

Christopher Titus, The Word Retard

[Blackhawk]

I don't think ID has anything to do with a desire to do harm to others in this case. What I was trying to say is that for a 12 year old to not understand that a) what they were doing was wrong, b) it would not make them welcome in a fantasy character's mansion, and c) death is permanent, seemed to indicate a severe lack of mental capacity. I don't buy their excuse. The fact that they actually stabbed the girl was just pure evil, not innocent kids getting caught up in fantasy.

How many twelve-year-old children who have not experienced death first hand can really comprehend what 'permanent' and 'forever' really mean? They know what the word means, but truly comprehending it is something that takes life experience.

Likewise, 'right' and 'wrong' as moral (rather than legal/'get in trouble') concepts are based off of compassion and empathy, something we develop early, but which is defined and strengthened, again, through life experience. I dislike watching people suffer loss, as I have suffered loss and understand the pain that it causes. Had I never suffered loss, my understanding would be greatly diminished.

Most twelve-year-old children do, in a way, have a 'severe lack of mental capacity' - their brains aren't fully developed, they lack the physical structures that adults use for informed decision making. They also don't have the experience in life that is necessary to really understand the impact of certain things.

I'm still not saying that these girls shouldn't suffer the consequences for their actions. They absolutely should. There is no excuse, and actions like this can't be brushed off. That said, it isn't just some sort of pop political correctness when they say that children this age - even those with normal intelligence - don't fully understand their own actions or the consequences thereof.