[Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

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Sudy
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Sudy »

Lol... I'm not considering annihilating my friendships with them. I'm just temporarily doing my best to stay the heck away from them physically and complaining about them on a message board.

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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Sudy wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:02 pm Lol... I'm not considering annihilating my friendships with them. I'm just temporarily doing my best to stay the heck away from them physically and complaining about them on a message board.
Fair enough, I was simply encouraging you to keep an open mind and to try to have empathy with where your friends are coming from. Which does not equate to sympathizing with them, approving of their behaviour, or agreeing with it. Empathy is the quality of standing in another’s shoes and understanding where they're coming from. To empathize means to understand, to see through the eyes of another, and empathy sadly seems in mighty short supply nowadays. For example, you have a wife while your friend who's dating evidently does not. So the isolation you and your wife have experienced is clearly a world apart from the far lonelier isolation your single friend has likely experienced. So whether or not you agree with his decision to date new people, one certainly ought to be able to empathize with how and why he reached that conclusion.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Sudy »

I do; I think I implied that in my initial post. I just don't think their motivations are sufficient.

And he can have Mrs. Nym if he wants her. Thirteen years of marriage and being stuck indoors with her for the past eleven months ain't all peaches neither.

I saw a commercial on late night TV. It said, "Forget everything you know about slipcovers." So I did. And it was a load off my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell me slipcovers, and I didn't know what the hell they were. -- Mitch Hedberg
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

Here's a Twitter thread (which I hate) on risk and behaviors after being vaccinated. The last post ("It's complicated") is likely the best take.

There are a lot of questions about how fully vaccinated individuals should behave. I don't have good solutions either, but I have some thoughts. First of all, we are seeing more and more data about how well vaccination works in a real live setting. There are recent studies...
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Sudy »

I like the "please don't decide for the entire world's populace what we do or don't need" reply. /Jackie Chan WTF meme

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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

That has been the most infuriating element for me during this last year. Yes, my own risk tolerance calculates into the equation when I'm deciding what I'm going to do, however when someone doesn't recognize that their own decisions (regardless of their own risk tolerance) potentially impacts others it's exhausting. Probably more accurate to say when it's pointed out their decision to do [X] potentially impacts others, they shrug their shoulders and say "freedom".

I'm not staying at home because I'm living in fear. I'm staying home because I'm trying to make sure the virus can't spread to others through me. If this virus wasn't communicable via casual contact, then an argument about freedom and individual liberties would likely have more weight. However, as long as your decisions potentially directly impact me, expect pushback.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Kraken »

Sudy wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:02 pm And he can have Mrs. Nym if he wants her. Thirteen years of marriage and being stuck indoors with her for the past eleven months ain't all peaches neither.
:lol: Amen. As I sometimes tell Wife, "How can I miss you if you won't go away?" She used to visit with her friends about one weekend each month, which was a nice mini-vacation for both of us. Neither of us have gone anywhere in well over a year.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Sudy wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:02 pm I do; I think I implied that in my initial post. I just don't think their motivations are sufficient.
Fair enough. I honestly did not pick up on that implication from your post at all. If anything, your post came across to me as quite the opposite when you opened it by saying, "I just don't get it. Even relatively mature, intelligent people I know are employing fewer precautions than recommended." So it seemed to me like you were having difficulty understanding where your friends were coming from, hence my response.

Anyway, mea culpa, so no big deal.
Sudy wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:02 pm And he can have Mrs. Nym if he wants her. Thirteen years of marriage and being stuck indoors with her for the past eleven months ain't all peaches neither.
:) Touché.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by disarm »

The hospital system within which I work (largest in CT, with nine hospitals) released some pretty amazing information recently...

There has not been a single test-positive case of influenza admitted to any facility within the system this flu season. According to the CT Department of Public Health, there have been only thirteen hospital admissions for treatment of influenza in the entire state, and only one known influenza-related death. At roughly this same time last year, there had already been 2600 hospitalizations and 70 deaths.

Why is this so significant? It shows that measures like mask-wearing, social distancing, and other measures implemented for management of COVID-19 can be incredibly effective against influenza...and how much more contagious COVID-19 is by comparison. The control measures implemented in CT have almost eliminated severe cases of flu, yet the coronavirus has continued to spread, very rapidly at times, and people are still dying in significant numbers.

People can keep trying to equate COVID-19 to the flu, but I think comparison to influenza statistics across the country will show that they're two very different beasts. The novel coronavirus is much more difficult to control, and much more likely to cause severe symptoms in those who do become infected.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Blackhawk »

Anonymous Bosch wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:44 am
Sudy wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:14 am I don't think they're selfish assholes. I think they have a poor perspective of the scope of this thing.
Perhaps they do. And perhaps they assessed the risks of their behaviour, balanced them against the avoidance costs, and simply reached a different conclusion than you.
Unless they assessed the risks of their behavior, and then took a poll among everybody else that their behavior could impact, their conclusion was based on flawed reasoning.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by YellowKing »

We've had this discussion before, but it seems unrealistic to me to open businesses and not expect people to shop at those businesses. Open up restaurants, and not expect people to eat at those restaurants. People are goldfish, and they're going to expand to fit whatever bowl you put them in. If you give a goldfish a 10-gallon tank, he's going to use all 10 gallons. While what's best for everyone might be for the goldfish to only swim in the 5 gallons on the right-hand side of the tank, it's not going to happen. And if it's not going to happen, then we need to figure out the next best thing.

Screaming at/shaming the goldfish really accomplishes nothing.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Blackhawk »

We're not shaming them. We're talking about them behind their backs. ;)
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by YellowKing »

Blackhawk wrote:We're not shaming them. We're talking about them behind their backs.
Fair enough, please continue. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:17 pm
Anonymous Bosch wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:44 am
Sudy wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:14 am I don't think they're selfish assholes. I think they have a poor perspective of the scope of this thing.
Perhaps they do. And perhaps they assessed the risks of their behaviour, balanced them against the avoidance costs, and simply reached a different conclusion than you.
Unless they assessed the risks of their behavior, and then took a poll among everybody else that their behavior could impact, their conclusion was based on flawed reasoning.
Now you're just being daft. If the community in which Sudy resides legitimately chose to permit dine-in restaurant meals, and his friend's assessment of the risks involved prompted them to do so, I hope you're not seriously suggesting that said friend's conclusion was based on flawed reasoning unless he personally polled everyone else in the restaurant or community. Because that's just absurd.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

He's not being daft at all. Instead he (and I) have been pointing out the mixed-messaging that's occurring here (and apparently in Canada as well). More specifically, that communities and governments are opening businesses not because it's magically safer to eat indoors but because businesses are unable to pay tax revenue. However, when the local government says capacity to eat indoors will be increasing and other indoor activities are now permitted, the general public believes these activities are safer - which is understandable. Why would they let us do these things if they weren't safe? None of that changes the fact that if instead we reinforced the message of how patronizing a bar or restaurant to consume food and drink indoors while unmasked potentially affects those working in those facilities it would be a better message (regardless of the risk an individual is willing to take). Instead, we're indirectly telling people to go and do these things because they keep bellyaching they cannot, Bob's your uncle!
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

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Anonymous Bosch wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:22 pm Now you're just being daft. If the community in which Sudy resides legitimately chose to permit dine-in restaurant meals,
The community did not. The local authorities did, and if we've learned anything over the past year or so, it's that just because the (local/state) politician says it's OK to do something doesn't mean it is OK to do it. The decisions are often made not on science, not on professional guidance, not on the economy, but on popularity polls, profit, and partisan politics.

The decision, was, still, based on flawed reasoning. Or possibly even multiple layers of flawed reasoning.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Blackhawk »

None of which means I'm not being daft. I am, after all, quite the daft codger, a badge I wear with pride!
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Sudy »

I definitely think the governments are most responsible. It just frustrates me that my friends aren't being smarter and taking more precautions. But again, I know why they're doing these things... I don't think they're stupid, or malicious. And while I don't think I've made any deeply bad decisions, I know I've definitely made a few selfish ones of my own over the past year. I've relied on food delivery rather than cooking more, which is also unideal because I'm financially supporting businesses like Uber Eats which aren't ultimately good for the drivers or restaurants. Conversely, it's not like I'm meeting the driver without a mask, and I don't own a car so I don't have a way to cut out the middleman. But would the most responsible thing be to make the effort to cook more and minimize outings/deliveries, or if I had to order food, stick to what I could pick up on foot? Yeah, probably. But if you're going to harm wildlife, it's probably less dangerous to feed a duck breadcrumbs than it is to molest a dolphin.

If the people I trust and respect are making these bad decisions though, I know it's even worse with the general population.

I saw a commercial on late night TV. It said, "Forget everything you know about slipcovers." So I did. And it was a load off my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell me slipcovers, and I didn't know what the hell they were. -- Mitch Hedberg
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Smoove_B wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:34 pm He's not being daft at all. Instead he (and I) have been pointing out the mixed-messaging that's occurring here (and apparently in Canada as well). More specifically, that communities and governments are opening businesses not because it's magically safer to eat indoors but because businesses are unable to pay tax revenue.
And as I observed earlier, the devil's in the details. Many of the restaurants somehow still afloat have gone to great lengths and spent a great deal of money and effort to ensure their patrons' safety. So it's not completely impossible to dine-in at a restaurant relatively safely, and doing so need not equate to necessarily increasing the risks for everyone around. Depending upon the prevalence of the virus in the restaurant's locale, the size of the restaurant, how suitably it's ventilated, the amount of space kept between customers, and numerous other safety precautions and practices I would assume you, of all people, are quite familiar with, it's not necessarily a foregone conclusion that the mere act of choosing to dine-in at a restaurant definitively equates to reckless behaviour.
Smoove_B wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:34 pmHowever, when the local government says capacity to eat indoors will be increasing and other indoor activities are now permitted, the general public believes these activities are safer - which is understandable. Why would they let us do these things if they weren't safe? None of that changes the fact that if instead we reinforced the message of how patronizing a bar or restaurant to consume food and drink indoors while unmasked potentially affects those working in those facilities it would be a better message (regardless of the risk an individual is willing to take). Instead, we're indirectly telling people to go and do these things because they keep bellyaching they cannot, Bob's your uncle!
Every time we step outside our homes, the risks we and others face multiply. A free society assumes that its citizens are competent to assess those risks, balance them against the avoidance costs, and to manage their decisions in a generally responsible way. We used to call that common sense, and it’s a necessary prerequisite for self-government and liberty. And you needn't take my word for it either, because we've seen countless examples from our ruling class demonstrating this through their own seemingly-hypocritical actions and behaviour throughout this pandemic.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Blackhawk »

The sticking point here is that one doesn't have the same freedom to impose risks on others that one has to assume personal risks.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:08 pm
Anonymous Bosch wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:22 pm Now you're just being daft. If the community in which Sudy resides legitimately chose to permit dine-in restaurant meals,
The community did not. The local authorities did, and if we've learned anything over the past year or so, it's that just because the (local/state) politician says it's OK to do something doesn't mean it is OK to do it. The decisions are often made not on science, not on professional guidance, not on the economy, but on popularity polls, profit, and partisan politics.
So what? Local authorities are paid for and provided by the communities they represent. Flawed as they and their decisions often may well be, it's the nature of the beast in terms of representative county and municipal government. We don't live under direct democracy, so it's not a bug, it's a feature.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Blackhawk »

So we should turn off our brains and just accept what they tell us without considering their motivations and influences? Without considering if what we're being told is acceptable isn't? Weren't you were just talking about common sense and responsibility?
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

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It's worked for me for 70 years.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

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Blackhawk wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:49 pm So we should turn off our brains and just accept what they tell us without considering their motivations and influences? Without considering if what we're being told is acceptable isn't? Weren't you were just talking about common sense and responsibility?
Right, because that's exactly what I said and clearly what I meant.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Blackhawk »

Way to completely avoid the point.

This is going in circles. Eject!
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

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Blackhawk wrote:The sticking point here is that one doesn't have the same freedom to impose risks on others that one has to assume personal risks.
The problem I see (assuming we're talking about risk to wait staff, etc.) is that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. If you close the restaurant, wait staff don't get paid. If you open the restaurant but nobody shows up, wait staff don't get paid. There's no way a waiter or waitress is making the same from takeout as they used to pull on a busy Saturday night.

Don't misconstrue this as me implying that they should be thankful for me putting them at risk (I'm using 'me' in a general sense, as I've been take-out only for the last year). I'm just saying they're in a crappy position no matter what happens. That's a fundamental flaw with our entire socio-economic system. Low wage/minimum wage workers are always going to be the ones most likely to find themselves over a barrel.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:23 pm Way to completely avoid the point.

This is going in circles. Eject!
If you don't want a sarcastic response, then don't try to misrepresent and distort what I've said to the point of absurdity. Because that demonstrates you have no sincere interest in continuing a civil dialogue and discussion.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Blackhawk »

Anonymous Bosch wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:53 pm
If you don't want a sarcastic response, then don't try to misrepresent and distort what I've said to the point of absurdity. Because that demonstrates you have no sincere interest in continuing a civil dialogue and discussion.
Oh, the irony.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Kraken »

YellowKing wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:48 pm There's no way a waiter or waitress is making the same from takeout as they used to pull on a busy Saturday night.
I tip 20% on takeout, which I never did before the pandemic...but because I'm not buying drinks, my checks are less than half of what they were when we could eat on-prem (which is something we haven't done since October, and won't do again until April or May because outdoor dining in winter is not fun). Our weekly restaurant night used to cost me $65-80 plus a commensurate tip. Takeout night costs me $25-40 plus tip.

I'm as eager as anyone else to have a proper sit-down meal in a bar again. But I won't do it until I'm vaccinated and community spread is at background levels. That last part is what we're risking now.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Jeff V »

Kraken wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:20 pm
YellowKing wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:48 pm There's no way a waiter or waitress is making the same from takeout as they used to pull on a busy Saturday night.
I tip 20% on takeout, which I never did before the pandemic...but because I'm not buying drinks, my checks are less than half of what they were when we could eat on-prem (which is something we haven't done since October, and won't do again until April or May because outdoor dining in winter is not fun). Our weekly restaurant night used to cost me $65-80 plus a commensurate tip. Takeout night costs me $25-40 plus tip.

I'm as eager as anyone else to have a proper sit-down meal in a bar again. But I won't do it until I'm vaccinated and community spread is at background levels. That last part is what we're risking now.
There's a Pho joint my wife has had me getting carryout once a week since she started a second job. I don't normally tip on carryout, but I have been 10% here (if their website worked and I could pay before pickup then I likely wouldn't. There is zero chance we would ever sit-in at this place. Carryout food in general is puppies unless it's pizza or cold sandwiches. The one time (and last time) I ordered from this place for myself, the bahn mi was wilted, soggy and just plain sad.

Might do outdoor dining when that becomes practical again in about 3 months, but 9 months sans job has left the entertainment budget at approximately $0. It would only happen if my wife has some extra OT and really wants something not in my repertoire (like sushi).
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Sudy »

On a local news site:
Ontario is now in a 'race against time' with nearly a third of all COVID-19 cases screening positive for variants: official
Which includes:
Across the GTA, Toronto reported 568 cases, the highest daily total that city has seen since Feb. 5, while Peel Region reported 322 new cases, the highest daily total the region has disclosed since Feb. 2.

Two articles above:
Most retail stores reopen in Toronto, Peel Region today as stay-at-home order lifted

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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by YellowKing »

Got some information that it's very likely we will never go back to being in the office full-time (unless we absolutely choose to do so).

They sent out a survey to measure how many people wanted to work from home full-time, work from the office full-time, or work in the office part-time using a shared workspace.

The overwhelming majority of our department wished to stay working from home full-time, which is a big change from pre-pandemic attitudes. Our company was experimenting with WFH before Covid, and at that point most people preferred office work.

Apparently discussions are already underway on sub-leasing our old office space. It's amazing what a difference a year (and a once-in-a-century pandemic) makes.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by hitbyambulance »

survey was sent out and no one wanted to return to 'five days in the office', with more than a few saying they never wanted to come back. so now almost all of the cubicles will be dismantled and the organization is going to an open-floor (??) plan, with the expectation that teams will come in approximately two days a week and have floating seating/hot seats/whatever they're called

this is basically going to be the death of socialization at work - need to find more outlets outside of that. (not that my team was particularly social to begin with - they're all very introverted - but other jobs i will work in the future will be affected)
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Blackhawk »

Time for neighborhoods to come back.
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Lorini »

hitbyambulance wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:12 pm survey was sent out and no one wanted to return to 'five days in the office', with more than a few saying they never wanted to come back. so now almost all of the cubicles will be dismantled and the organization is going to an open-floor (??) plan, with the expectation that teams will come in approximately two days a week and have floating seating/hot seats/whatever they're called

this is basically going to be the death of socialization at work - need to find more outlets outside of that. (not that my team was particularly social to begin with - they're all very introverted - but other jobs i will work in the future will be affected)
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LordMortis
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by LordMortis »

Lorini wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:18 pm Board games are fun and they'll be starting back up soon :) (says a lifelong board gamer who has met a ton of wonderful people in the hobby).
This is what I'm waiting for. It's my only socialization and I was lucky to get out twice in a month to board game in the before times, but even once every other month is better once in 13+ months.
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Ralph-Wiggum
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

Me too. When I moved to St. Louis back in 2017, the first way I met new people in the area was through a board game meet up group. Unfortunately, I obviously wasn't able to do the same when I moved to Charleston, SC in March of last year. I think there are some people I've met at work that I think will likely be interested in playing board games and doing other social stuff once we've all been vaccinated, but Covid has really limited my ability to meet anyone else in the area.
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YellowKing
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by YellowKing »

Yeah, I'm not too concerned as our weekly board game group will be starting back up in person soon since we're all vaxxed. Aside from that, we'll be moving to a new house in June and have already become friends with several of our neighbors over there that we've met when checking on construction.

That said, I'm an introvert and adjust extremely well to social isolation. I do feel bad for some of my friends and co-workers who are super-outgoing and really need that work social outlet.
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coopasonic
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by coopasonic »

Lorini wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:18 pm
hitbyambulance wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:12 pm survey was sent out and no one wanted to return to 'five days in the office', with more than a few saying they never wanted to come back. so now almost all of the cubicles will be dismantled and the organization is going to an open-floor (??) plan, with the expectation that teams will come in approximately two days a week and have floating seating/hot seats/whatever they're called

this is basically going to be the death of socialization at work - need to find more outlets outside of that. (not that my team was particularly social to begin with - they're all very introverted - but other jobs i will work in the future will be affected)
Board games are fun and they'll be starting back up soon :) (says a lifelong board gamer who has met a ton of wonderful people in the hobby).
We've crossed the two over over the past year. My team has been "getting together" every other week during working hours to play games on boardgamearena. It has helped us stay connected (and helped me get my board game fix).
-Coop
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gameoverman
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Re: [Health] The Infectious Diseases Thread

Post by gameoverman »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:34 pm Got some information that it's very likely we will never go back to being in the office full-time (unless we absolutely choose to do so).

They sent out a survey to measure how many people wanted to work from home full-time, work from the office full-time, or work in the office part-time using a shared workspace.

The overwhelming majority of our department wished to stay working from home full-time, which is a big change from pre-pandemic attitudes. Our company was experimenting with WFH before Covid, and at that point most people preferred office work.

Apparently discussions are already underway on sub-leasing our old office space. It's amazing what a difference a year (and a once-in-a-century pandemic) makes.
I know people who have had to work from home. Initially they set up a home office out of what they had. A nightstand for a desk, a dining room chair for an office chair, and so on. Then, months into working from home, they invested in building a usable home office. Now they are dismayed at any news from their employer that working from home may be coming to an end for them. Their home offices have become their comfort zones. Not having to lose X amount of time commuting to work means they've started using that time for other things and don't want to give those things up now. The amount of money they spent on gasoline has gone down so much they can't believe it, and are not eager to start having to spend that much on gas again.

I noticed, pre-pandemic, that sometimes you can tell people how great something is and they'll ignore you because unless you experience some things you can't really know how great they are. I think that working from home is one of those things. Not that I think everyone loves it, but I bet a very large number of people have learned to love it even though they might have scoffed at the idea of working from home before the pandemic.
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