Octopus Overlords

Nor Bruce!

Alefroth wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:39 pm I wonder if prayer books were pooh-poohed when they came out.

They were used to advance the Reformation and secure Protestantism in England IIRC. They were basically propaganda tools.

Max Peck wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 1:06 pm
What, indeed, could be wrong with a Peter Thiel project?

Anything Thiel is involved in should be immediately suspect.

Yeah, I don't see an automatic problem with a prayer app, depending on what it actually does.

If it provides devotions and readings and meditations on the various themes of the liturgical year, it's no different from any other devotional handbook. However, I am certain that plenty such apps already exist and are free.

If it's charging people for the chance to pray with celebrity believers and such, it starts to seem more like a racket taking advantage of the faithful and/or those in spiritual crisis.

As is tradition.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:45 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:39 pm I wonder if prayer books were pooh-poohed when they came out.

They were used to advance the Reformation and secure Protestantism in England IIRC. They were basically propaganda tools.

Basically every religious tradition has devotional manuals of some sort.

Are you thinking maybe of the official homilies that were issued at times of particular crises (e.g. ensuring that every minister in English preached on loyalty to the monarch immediately following an usurpation plot)?

It's true that the English Book of Common Prayer (which is much bigger and broader than those official homilies) was argued over and revised to fit the needs of shifting official theology throughout the 16th/17th centuries, but that's the case at every level where theology is "official." And of course the BCP contains the "script" of official rites and ceremonies, the kinds of things that are at the heart of Anglican worship and which aren't in the Bible itself. (Again, every religion and tradition has something similar.)

Forgive my pedantry, but I did years of graduate school on English Reformation religion and literature. I have to use it when I can.

Was definitely thinking of the BoCP. My understanding is that it was used by Thomas Cranmer to push reforms as soon as Edward VI became king. It even sparked a rebellion. So definitely pooh-poohed, in answer to Alefroth's question.

But then I'm going off vague memories of what may be bad info.

Is a prayer app ($9.99/mo) analogous to a prayer book?

Unagi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:28 pm Is a prayer app ($9.99/mo) analogous to a prayer book?

Additionally, do prayer books datamine and sell your personal information? While feeding you far-right propoganda, in some cases...

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 3:56 pm Was definitely thinking of the BoCP. My understanding is that it was used by Thomas Cranmer to push reforms as soon as Edward VI became king. It even sparked a rebellion. So definitely pooh-poohed, in answer to Alefroth's question.

But then I'm going off vague memories of what may be bad info.

It definitely rewrote the (still basically pseudo-Catholic) rites of Henry VIII's church in a much more Protestant direction. But when you have an official church to which every subject is expected to adhere, it feels like another word than "propaganda" is needed for the official liturgy. It was basically a new Constitution, religion-wise.

Unagi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:28 pm Is a prayer app ($9.99/mo) analogous to a prayer book?

They're both unnecessary for communicating with god.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:47 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:28 pm Is a prayer app ($9.99/mo) analogous to a prayer book?

They're both unnecessary for communicating with god.

I thought this was a transmitter for speaking to god?

Max Peck wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:24 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:28 pm Is a prayer app ($9.99/mo) analogous to a prayer book?

Additionally, do prayer books datamine and sell your personal information? While feeding you far-right propoganda, in some cases...

Just a side note, but I keep wondering about who is collecting the specific and very personal data people contribute to their AI girlfriends or AI therapists.

It seems like we're just kind of sleep-walking into a system where we profile and confess and incriminate ourselves to strangers in a position to do something with it.

There's no precedent for paying someone in order to intervene with God. What a horrible thing.

Swipe left for Indulgences.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 11:48 pm There's no precedent for paying someone in order to intervene with God. What a horrible thing.

Swipe left for Indulgences.

Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:00 pm A modern day indulgence, wouldn't you say?

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 12:27 pm I don't understand - what is wrong with a prayer app?

Holman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 6:35 pm Yeah, I don't see an automatic problem with a prayer app, depending on what it actually does.

If it provides devotions and readings and meditations on the various themes of the liturgical year, it's no different from any other devotional handbook. However, I am certain that plenty such apps already exist and are free.

If it's charging people for the chance to pray with celebrity believers and such, it starts to seem more like a racket taking advantage of the faithful and/or those in spiritual crisis.

Holman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 8:43 pm

Max Peck wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:24 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:28 pm Is a prayer app ($9.99/mo) analogous to a prayer book?

Additionally, do prayer books datamine and sell your personal information? While feeding you far-right propoganda, in some cases...

Just a side note, but I keep wondering about who is collecting the specific and very personal data people contribute to their AI girlfriends or AI therapists.

It seems like we're just kind of sleep-walking into a system where we profile and confess and incriminate ourselves to strangers in a position to do something with it.

I just want to say, this is not a 'side note' - it was fully part of my original cringe.

It's not just charging them, it's not just promising them a chance to pray with Mark Wahlberg, it's collecting their prayers. It's collecting what they would communicate with "god". Oh, also the regular load of other personal data.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 11:48 pm What a horrible thing.

Not sure what the tone here is. This came across as sarcasm, and that you don't feel it's all that big a deal, to me. Just wanted to give you a chance to set me straight.

Feigned outrage with which to mock.

At the same time, I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's business as usual, not much different than what mega-churches have been doing for decades. It just stands out more because it's a bit tackier and more blatant. Using religion to suck money from the masses while leveraging the pulpit to bully those masses with political views is pretty much the core business model.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 8:59 am How it started:

1/16/2016

SPRINGVILLE — A Utah County mother of six is documenting her family's life on a popular YouTube channel so her children can see the power of a mother.

Now:

8/31/2023
IVINS , Washington County — A popular YouTube blogger and the creator of Utah County-based mental health counseling company have been arrested and accused of child abuse after police say a malnourished child who appeared to have had his hands bound ran to a neighboring home for help.

Jodi Nan Hildebrandt, 54, and Ruby Franke, 41, were arrested Wednesday for investigation of two counts each of aggravated child abuse.

Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt sentenced to up to 30 years in prison in child abuse case

Parenting YouTuber Ruby Franke and her business parter Jodi Hildebrandt, who pleaded guilty to child abuse charges that stemmed from one of Franke's children escaping Hildebrandt's house in August to beg a neighbor for help, have been sentenced to prison. Each could serve as much as 30 years, the prosecutor said after the hearing, the most severe penalty available under Utah law.

Franke has been sentenced to four consecutive prison terms, CBS News affiliate KUTV reported Tuesday, which could range from one to 15 years each. The Utah Board of Pardons and Parole will determine prison time, KUTV reported. Franke has 30 days to appeal the decision.

Hildebrandt received the same sentence of four consecutive prison terms, KUTV reported, which could again range from one to 15 years each. Like Franke, Hildebrandt's prison time will be determined by the Utah Board of Pardons and Parole.
...
While reading the sentencing recommendation, state prosecutor Eric Clarke compared the environment Franke's children faced to a "concentration camp-like setting," and said that Franke "committed horrible acts of child abuse." While addressing Hildebrandt's charges, Clarke called her a "significant threat" to the community.

Both women addressed the court before their sentencings, with Hildebrandt saying that she would "submit to what the state feels is an appropriate amount of time served." Franke admitted that she and Hildebrandt had "inflicted the injuries" on her children. She said that she had been "led to believe that this world is an evil place" and that Hildebrandt had never been her "business responsibility," but that she had paid the other woman to be her mentor. Franke also thanked public safety officials who rescued her children, calling them "angels," according to KUTV.

Tennessee GOP craziness and open racism.

Richard Dawkins becomes a cultural Christian, LOL:

I’d love to pick your brain on this a bit Grifman.

Just to start, what is it you find remarkable about Dawkin’s statement?


I believe he has always ‘admitted’ to a Christian cultural foundation to his life, etc.

Knowingly generalizing about those who grew up and/or live in a western nation. This won't apply - at least not the same way - to those who did not.

As an atheist who was raised Christian (until about 12), I fully understand what he's saying, and I agree. Our culture, like it or not, was built around Christianity. Our traditions, our ways of doing things, our laws (even the secular ones), our music, our language, our stories, our art, our ways of dealing with the world and each other (like the idea of self-sacrifice to benefit others) - all of it developed fully saturated with Christianity. If you grew up and lived in the Western world, you grew up soaking in a deep pool of Christian culture, and much of that is genuinely positive. Especially those aspects that are one step removed from the dogma and politics of Christianity. Much of it is harmful as well, but you can't argue that we're not also

I'm an atheist. I still celebrate Christmas, I still get a smile when I see kids getting excited for the Easter bunny, I still enjoy TV shows and films that are heavily flavored by Christianity (even those that don't have a single priest or line of verse.) I listen to music that owes a great deal to times and places when most music was Christian. When I'm able to go to an art museum, a significant portion of what's there is openly Christian. I was raised with, and among, Christian values, and while I have gone down that particular list and discarded those that I've found lacking, the truth is that many of my more positive qualities originated from being raised in and around Christianity.

Like it or not, almost all of us are cultural Christians.

As to Dawkins, I'd say that it reaffirms the value of his non-belief that he's intellectually honest enough to be aware of, and openly admit to Christianity's influence on his life.

I'm shocked to learn that an atheist raised in England nevertheless finds cultural comfort in hymns and other religious rituals that permeate English culture.

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:59 am I'm shocked to learn that an atheist raised in England nevertheless finds cultural comfort in hymns and other religious rituals that permeate English culture.

He was never a *real* atheist to begin with.

*wink*

Unagi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:55 am I’d love to pick your brain on this a bit Grifman.

Just to start, what is it you find remarkable about Dawkin’s statement?


I believe he has always ‘admitted’ to a Christian cultural foundation to his life, etc.

Because, as Tom Holland put it, for years Dawkins has been sawing away at the branch he’s been sitting on, and only now is looking nervously at the ground far below. It’s the chef’s kiss.

I...don't think you understand what culturally Christian means. I am 100% culturally Christian, but I barely believe Christ existed, let alone has any relationship with how the universe was created.

Do you think he's struggling with his mortality and is worried about the afterlife? Is that's what you mean by "nervously looking at the ground below"?

What's the chef's kiss here?

I mean, this says it all.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:58 am Like it or not, almost all of us are cultural Christians.

That doesn't make all of us Christian.

Yeah, I truly do not get Grifman's point here.

And I agree with BH, Holman, and GreeGoo's replies. +1 to each.


It certainly does sound as if you (Grifman) are saying he's nearing death, and as he does - he backs away from his Athiest views and starts to make room for a world view that includes an afterlife.

Is that correct?

Had trouble finding the source of your 'as he puts it'.

Couldn't really find anything, but this - totally unrelated - yet same words.

https://www.anglicansamizdat.net/wordpr ... itting-on/

Unagi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:32 pm Yeah, I truly do not get Grifman's point here.

And I agree with BH, Holman, and GreeGoo's replies. +1 to each.


It certainly does sound as if you (Grigman) are saying he's nearing death, and as he does - he backs away from his Athiest views and starts to make room for a world view that includes an afterlife.

Is that correct?

Sounds like Pascal's Wager:

If God does not exist, the individual incurs only finite losses, potentially sacrificing certain pleasures and luxuries. However, if God does indeed exist, they stand to gain immeasurably, as represented for example by an eternity in Heaven in Abrahamic tradition, while simultaneously avoiding boundless losses associated with an eternity in Hell.

Dawkin's has spoken and written of his and presumably many many other Western athiests' "Cultural Christianity", for decades.

Decades.

Most of you know I was raised Southern Evangelical and left off that belief near the end of high school. Of course I kept in touch with that lost faith by studying literature and religious history, even to the point of writing half a dissertation on English Reformation devotional poetry.

I'm a textbook case of "cultural Christianity." I don't believe God exists, but the right hymn can move me to tears.

I know lots of people like me. What sets Dawkins apart from nearly all of them (and me) is apparently his frankly bigoted refusal to believe that any other religious tradition has any worth or value beyond its strict theology.

Jaymann wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:38 pm Sounds like Pascal's Wager:

If God does not exist, the individual incurs only finite losses, potentially sacrificing certain pleasures and luxuries. However, if God does indeed exist, they stand to gain immeasurably, as represented for example by an eternity in Heaven in Abrahamic tradition, while simultaneously avoiding boundless losses associated with an eternity in Hell.

Right. But which god is the correct one? You could just be pissing off the true god by believing in the wrong version of him, or even a non-version of him.

Plus, if god is god, do you think he's fooled by people hedging their bets? Is god's point of view that as long as people pay lip service, everything is hunkydory? True belief not required?

Pascal's wager is nonsense.

edit: To clarify, I don't doubt there are many people actively using Pascal's wager to save their immortal soul. It won't work.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:28 am

Jaymann wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:38 pm Sounds like Pascal's Wager:

If God does not exist, the individual incurs only finite losses, potentially sacrificing certain pleasures and luxuries. However, if God does indeed exist, they stand to gain immeasurably, as represented for example by an eternity in Heaven in Abrahamic tradition, while simultaneously avoiding boundless losses associated with an eternity in Hell.

Right. But which god is the correct one? You could just be pissing off the true god by believing in the wrong version of him, or even a non-version of him.

Plus, if god is god, do you think he's fooled by people hedging their bets? Is god's point of view that as long as people pay lip service, everything is hunkydory? True belief not required?

Pascal's wager is nonsense.

edit: To clarify, I don't doubt there are many people actively using Pascal's wager to save their immortal soul. It won't work.

Maybe that is why most bet on gods that warned them to not believe in other god?

If there are 3 possible god:
1. first god that hate people who worship other god.
2. second god that doesn't care if you worship other god or not.
3. third god that found it is funny that you worship the wrong god.

It is better to bet on first god. Better chance of not suffering from god's wrath. If you bet one 1 but the real god is 2 or 3, no problem. But if you bet on 2 or 3 but the real god is no. 1, you're going to suffer.

Unagi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:32 pm Yeah, I truly do not get Grifman's point here.

And I agree with BH, Holman, and GreeGoo's replies. +1 to each.


It certainly does sound as if you (Grifman) are saying he's nearing death, and as he does - he backs away from his Athiest views and starts to make room for a world view that includes an afterlife.

Is that correct?

No, not at all, not even close. I never mentioned death, never alluded to it.

The point is that all these aspects of cultural Christianity that Dawkins appreciates only exist because some people actually believe and lived out their beliefs as Christians. By his attacks on Christianity he was undermining the very beliefs that gave him what he appreciates as “cultural Christianity”. Hence the cutting off of the very branch he is sitting on.

There are over 45,000 Christian denominations alone. Most of which preach hell for not following god their way. Even *if* Christianity is correct and we ignore Judaism, Islam and Hinduism (these are just the big boys, don't forget about all the rest. I hear Odin is *very* spiteful), you still only have a 1 in 45,000 chance to bet correctly.

Go ahead and make your wager. It's only your eternal soul on the line. You can't win if you don't play.

Listen, I'm not hear to crap on anyone's belief system. But if you're going to believe, you better believe sincerely, because the god that most of us know, is a son of a bitch and has done heinous things (apparently). He'll know you are hedging. And he will burn you for eternity, and blame you for it in the process.

Grifman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:13 pm No, not at all, not even close. I never mentioned death, never alluded to it.

Lol. Well? Don't leave us hanging!

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:18 pm

Grifman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:13 pm No, not at all, not even close. I never mentioned death, never alluded to it.

Lol. Well? Don't leave us hanging!

Hah, see my edited comment above!

Grifman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:21 pm Hah, see my edited comment above!

Will do!

On a side note, I'm just shy of being a boomer. I only know how to text two things. "Ok" and :thumbs-up:

How on earth do we not have a thumbs up emoji??

edit: Ok, I've read your response. My response is "so what?". There are a million other options, many of which I would say are at least subjectively better. And there are plenty of shitty aspects of being culturally Christian too.

You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have it.

We have math because of Sumerians. Does that mean we need to appreciate their polytheistic religion? Do we need to be thankful that Athens invented democracy?

Society is full of good and bad things. Some of which come from Christianity. Some don't.

It's ok to criticize something despite enjoying some of the benefits that thing provides. Everyone hates the government, but...government.

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