HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Freyland »

GreenGoo wrote:
hepcat wrote:Keepin' it classy as usual, eh?
Well to be fair, what show wouldn't be improved by a naked Salma Hayek?
One filmed in 30 years from now?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by GreenGoo »

I'm still thinking it's a 50/50 chance.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Dogstar »

These violent delights have violent ends.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Daveman »

Still processing things but overall I liked the season finale. Inept security was my biggest complaint with the story. I really like that Ford...
Spoiler:
Turned out to be the "good" guy but sheesh... creating hell for the hosts so that some might achieve self awareness? That's rough.
As for MiB...
Spoiler:
I guess that like him, I came away disappointed with his story. I was thinking he'd figured out the maze was a way for hosts to become free and after all these years, was still coming back for Delores. His look of delight as he was shot by a host was priceless however.
As for season 2...
Spoiler:
I"ll be very curious to see where they go from here. They didn't pull back the curtain on the outside world at all so there's plenty to do there, not to mention Samurai World! I'm not sure how far the host-revolution can go. They've got an army of 19th century-armed hosts... I'm sure Delos can send in a flight of gunships and be done with them. The real danger would be hosts slipping out unnoticed but the whole "park is designed to keep you in" story wasn't explored. I kept thinking Maeve's head was going to explode as she entered the train but she or any other hosts didn't leave the park so we don't know if those measures are working or not.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by cheeba »

Some things I don't get:
1. I've already talked about this, but Felix. He went from just being a nice guy and helping Maeve to being complicit in the murder of like a dozen people? He had no motivation to do that. He didn't even look like he felt threatened or anything, he was just a mindless slave.

2. Why have Dolores-as-Wyatt kill all the hosts? Can't they just fix them? And can't they just make more? What does killing them accomplish?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Toe »

cheeba wrote:Some things I don't get:
2. Why have Dolores-as-Wyatt kill all the hosts? Can't they just fix them? And can't they just make more? What does killing them accomplish?
I think it was specifically to stop the park from being opened. i.e. they would never have enough time to fix all of the dead hosts before it was time to open. It almost worked to had not MiB stepped in and bought them out.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by RunningMn9 »

Toe wrote:I think it was specifically to stop the park from being opened. i.e. they would never have enough time to fix all of the dead hosts before it was time to open. It almost worked to had not MiB stepped in and bought them out.
I vaguely remember Ford saying that, but that can't be true. William's first visit to the park was after the park had already been open for some time.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Daveman »

Yeah, I think it was a misguided attempt to sabotage the opening of the park (delays getting the hosts repaired, bad press having one host go on a rampage, death of Arnold, etc.) but obviously they managed to open anyway. It was X years later (internet seems to think 5) that William and Logan visit and from their discussions it seems the park isn't doing well financially at the time. Ultimately it's Williams' obsession with and investment in the park that keeps it afloat.

Going back to a point I mentioned earlier, I think I overlooked the moment when Maeve and company approach that last elevator and Hector can't enter... perhaps that's the "host's can't leave the park" countermeasure? Presumably Maeve found a way around it.

I've always felt that Felix is just on the pro-Host bandwagon. He's enamored with the technology and concept that a host can become self-aware and wants to help, plus a little sympathy for the way the hosts are being treated and distaste for his asshole/creepy coworkers.

Now I'm having a hard time accepting how Ford could get away with a walking copy of Arnold all this time. Was there no one else there who would remember him?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by TiLT »

cheeba wrote:Some things I don't get:
1. I've already talked about this, but Felix. He went from just being a nice guy and helping Maeve to being complicit in the murder of like a dozen people? He had no motivation to do that. He didn't even look like he felt threatened or anything, he was just a mindless slave.
He was completely smitten with her, in more ways than one. She pretty much recruited him to her team.
RunningMn9 wrote:
Toe wrote:I think it was specifically to stop the park from being opened. i.e. they would never have enough time to fix all of the dead hosts before it was time to open. It almost worked to had not MiB stepped in and bought them out.
I vaguely remember Ford saying that, but that can't be true. William's first visit to the park was after the park had already been open for some time.
From what I understand, William's first visit to the park (the visit we get to see) took place during the prototype stages, before it opened to the public. Don't let Dolores' apparent flashbacks to the killings while she travels with him confuse you. The entire William story is a flashback, and Dolores is confused about what is taking place when. Some things that happen later appear like they've already happened because of this, but it's just a trick. The Hosts interpret memories in a different way from humans.
Daveman wrote:Going back to a point I mentioned earlier, I think I overlooked the moment when Maeve and company approach that last elevator and Hector can't enter... perhaps that's the "host's can't leave the park" countermeasure? Presumably Maeve found a way around it.
I think that was the purpose of the burning in the previous episode. By burning herself she'd require extensive reconstruction, which gave her human companion the opportunity to get rid of the bomb mechanism inside her.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

The big question is: was Maeve leaving the train the first sign of free will or was that also part of her program? I initially thought the former, but then again she didn't let Bernard finish describing what she was programed to do...
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

TiLT wrote:
cheeba wrote:Some things I don't get:
1. I've already talked about this, but Felix. He went from just being a nice guy and helping Maeve to being complicit in the murder of like a dozen people? He had no motivation to do that. He didn't even look like he felt threatened or anything, he was just a mindless slave.
He was completely smitten with her, in more ways than one. She pretty much recruited him to her team.
Spoiler:
It's also worth remembering that Maeve’s entire rebellion had been scripted, which explains much of the otherwise-implausible rebellious hijinks that took place with her backstage. She wasn't truly gaining consciousness, and was still operating on a loop, likely programmed by Ford. At least until she seemingly broke the loop with her decision not to "reach the mainland", as Bernard foretold when he read her script (which seems to imply the park's apparently located on an island of some sort?). In other words, I think we can presume that Ford arranged it so that Maeve was paired with body techs carefully selected for their particular susceptibility to her manipulation (and in the case of Felix, perhaps sympathetic to her cause).
TiLT wrote:
Daveman wrote:Going back to a point I mentioned earlier, I think I overlooked the moment when Maeve and company approach that last elevator and Hector can't enter... perhaps that's the "host's can't leave the park" countermeasure? Presumably Maeve found a way around it.
I think that was the purpose of the burning in the previous episode. By burning herself she'd require extensive reconstruction, which gave her human companion the opportunity to get rid of the bomb mechanism inside her.
Spoiler:
Or Ford simply removed the protective measures himself, as part of the denouement to his "Journey Into Night" narrative.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by pr0ner »

The soundtrack for Season 1 is up on iTunes/Spotify/the usual places.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by MonkeyFinger »

What we know so far about Season 2.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

Wood says in that article that Dolores pulled the trigger of her own accord. I don't believe that's true at all. Ford's speech proir to that tells us otherwise, I think.

Man, I love this show. That final 90 minutes was just insane. And it gave us a lot to chew on. Definitely a return to thoughtful sci fi.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Jag »

My take on the end was that Ford was finally convinced that the Host gained sentience and he decided to "free" them. However, they are still susceptible to programing, so he programmed them to take over WW and sent Maeve away to ensure that at least 1 Host would survive if WW got nuked from orbit. I don't think he counted on Maeve coming back. Which is really the point. If they truly are finally conscious, then they are going to make their own decisions. The fallout from that is going to be S2.
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Post by malchior »

Or Maeve was programmed to leave to steal the code by Delos but didn't count on sentience to kick in.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by RunningMn9 »

TiLT wrote:From what I understand, William's first visit to the park (the visit we get to see) took place during the prototype stages, before it opened to the public. Don't let Dolores' apparent flashbacks to the killings while she travels with him confuse you.
While I agree that they don't interpret memories the way that we do, William's first visit to the part took place after the park was open and struggling.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by GreenGoo »

I guess I better get caught up. Still stuck around eps 6 or 7 I think.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Toe »

RunningMn9 wrote:
TiLT wrote:From what I understand, William's first visit to the park (the visit we get to see) took place during the prototype stages, before it opened to the public. Don't let Dolores' apparent flashbacks to the killings while she travels with him confuse you.
While I agree that they don't interpret memories the way that we do, William's first visit to the part took place after the park was open and struggling.
Was William at the massacre though? If he was (honestly I can't remember), it could still be attributed to Dolores getting timelines confused.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

He wasn't. The massacre occurred before William (recall that the town had been buried by the time William was there).
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by tiny ogre »

Maeve left her purse on the train. She was carrying it when she got on and wasn't when she got off. I think she was programmed to smuggle something out (like the host code as malchior mentions), but not herself. Other than a gun, I don't think they ever showed us what was in that bag, did they? It was a big bag.

Possibly she's not awake at all and the whole thing is just her loop.

Possibly none of us are either.

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by TiLT »

tiny ogre wrote:Maeve left her purse on the train. She was carrying it when she got on and wasn't when she got off. I think she was programmed to smuggle something out (like the host code as malchior mentions), but not herself. Other than a gun, I don't think they ever showed us what was in that bag, did they? It was a big bag.

Possibly she's not awake at all and the whole thing is just her loop.
The script Bernard found showed that Maeve was supposed to reach the mainland, but she left the train before that could happen. She appears to have gone off script.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Daveman »

I think they make it clear her escape attempt was a program put in by Ford, I'm assuming as a distraction while he started his new narrative/massacre. The last part of the program we see (Keep scrolling down Bernard!) was "Mainland Infiltration". We're not sure what that's supposed to be, what's next, what's in the bag, etc. so we can only speculate.

We saw in a flashback that Maeve went crazy after William killed her daughter, which seems to be one of two outcomes when a host gets near the end of the "maze". So Ford knew she was close to sentience. We now also know that Ford was creating an environment that helped get hosts to that tipping point. Maybe "Mainland Infiltration" isn't anything more than Ford trying to get Maeve to that point again... a program that's forcing her to leave her daughter behind?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Malificent »

The Oatmeal is a Westworld fan, it seems:

http://theoatmeal.com/blog/westworld_horses
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by infinitelurker »

Daveman wrote: Now I'm having a hard time accepting how Ford could get away with a walking copy of Arnold all this time. Was there no one else there who would remember him?
I'm stuck on this too. Not only is he a walking copy of Arnold, but he goes by a different name? Unless the humans knew he was Ford's helper-host all along, and only Bernard didn't know?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

I'm assuming that in the early days, they had a smaller staff...and that Arnold was a bit of a recluse. My theory is that they just got rid of the handful of people that dealt with Arnold Prime in those days.
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Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

I think they mentioned multiple times that Ford and Arnold were doing a lot of this as a two man team at the beginning. Arnold died before the park opened and his contributions were wiped almost completely from the records (at some point someone says that they haven't been able to find even a picture of Arnold anywhere). Plus, the present timeline was 30+ years after Arnold died, so almost certainly no one working at the park would have met him other than Ford.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Toe »

Daveman wrote:I think they make it clear her escape attempt was a program put in by Ford, I'm assuming as a distraction while he started his new narrative/massacre. The last part of the program we see (Keep scrolling down Bernard!) was "Mainland Infiltration". We're not sure what that's supposed to be, what's next, what's in the bag, etc. so we can only speculate.
I did not think it was so clear, especially considering the scene where the management girl is telling jerk-face to program a bot to smuggle the data out of the park via the train. That scene felt out of place and did not go any further other than Maeve getting on the train at the end.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by GreenGoo »

Watched #7 last night. Enjoyed it.

Putting things in spoilers just because:
Spoiler:
Everyone suspected Bernard from the beginning but it was still cool for the final reveal. "What door?" right after explaining that hosts would look right at the house and not see it was a nice touch seconds before the explicit reveal.

I like that Hopkins is a ruthless, probably crazy eccentric. And who didn't like unpleasant boss woman getting hers? Obviously she didn't deserve to die but it's a story and you get to choose who to root for, and I doubt many people would pick the meddlesome corporate shill/ip pirate.

Poor Bernard. He was a likeable character trying to do what's right. Now he's just an extension of Hopkins.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by DD* »

Have avoided this thread as I have all of season 1 on DVR. Started watching it, I think I'm 3 episodes in(?) and I really like it so far. Definitely has a lot going on under the surface and I can't wait to find some time to finish it - and then immediately read this thread! :)
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by GreenGoo »

Started watching #8 last night. The early stuff with Hopkins was decent, but I can't stand Maeve's storyline, and the absurdity of it made me turn it off 1/2 way through the episode.

The Director and writer have failed to convince me that there are suitable motives to do as she demands, which makes it an exercise in obvious self destruction for the techs. I just can't swallow it easily.

I'll try again tonight.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

GreenGoo wrote:Started watching #8 last night. The early stuff with Hopkins was decent, but I can't stand Maeve's storyline, and the absurdity of it made me turn it off 1/2 way through the episode.

The Director and writer have failed to convince me that there are suitable motives to do as she demands, which makes it an exercise in obvious self destruction for the techs. I just can't swallow it easily.

I'll try again tonight.
Bear with it. In the context of the last episode, Maeve's storyline isn't quite as dubious as it may have initially appeared. After you've finished watching the conclusion, you can have a butcher's at my take on it here.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by GreenGoo »

Will do, thanks.

I had expressed my growing displeasure with this plot line earlier, so when it continued down that path it grew increasingly disappointing.

Bernard is fun though. I wonder how the hiring process went.

Spoiler:
The Man in Black getting coldcocked by a host surprised me and seemed out of place given the checks on hosts' behaviour. Nothing has implied that the host in question is unusual in this way up until now.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

GreenGoo wrote:
Spoiler:
The Man in Black getting coldcocked by a host surprised me and seemed out of place given the checks on hosts' behaviour. Nothing has implied that the host in question is unusual in this way up until now.
Don't forget:
Spoiler:
One of the primary rules of the park was that the further you get from Sweetwater, the rougher the experience becomes (e.g. the beating Logan received from the Confederados in Pariah).
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Paingod »

Anonymous Bosch wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
Spoiler:
The Man in Black getting coldcocked by a host surprised me and seemed out of place given the checks on hosts' behaviour. Nothing has implied that the host in question is unusual in this way up until now.
Don't forget:
Spoiler:
One of the primary rules of the park was that the further you get from Sweetwater, the rougher the experience becomes (e.g. the beating Logan received from the Confederados in Pariah).
Right back in the pilot, the only episode I've seen...
Spoiler:
One of the tourists references the town as "Level 1" and mentions the real crazy takes place outside in the wild. They had Teddy as a guide.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by TiLT »

Anonymous Bosch wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
Spoiler:
The Man in Black getting coldcocked by a host surprised me and seemed out of place given the checks on hosts' behaviour. Nothing has implied that the host in question is unusual in this way up until now.
Don't forget:
Spoiler:
One of the primary rules of the park was that the further you get from Sweetwater, the rougher the experience becomes (e.g. the beating Logan received from the Confederados in Pariah).
Also,
Spoiler:
The Man in Black points out in one of the later episodes (8, I think) that the hosts may beat him up as much as they want. No matter how hard they try, they can't do any actual damage beyond making things hurt a little. Their programming holds them back.

And yeah, the town you arrive in by train is pretty much the tutorial town, which most players would probably be content with. As demonstrated by the gunslinger lots of people bump into, the hosts will hold back to a ridiculous amount in order to make the humans "win". That's not true once you leave that town.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by GreenGoo »

Paingod wrote:
Anonymous Bosch wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
Spoiler:
The Man in Black getting coldcocked by a host surprised me and seemed out of place given the checks on hosts' behaviour. Nothing has implied that the host in question is unusual in this way up until now.
Don't forget:
Spoiler:
One of the primary rules of the park was that the further you get from Sweetwater, the rougher the experience becomes (e.g. the beating Logan received from the Confederados in Pariah).
Right back in the pilot, the only episode I've seen...
Spoiler:
One of the tourists references the town as "Level 1" and mentions the real crazy takes place outside in the wild. They had Teddy as a guide.
That may well be, and I did note that the more interesting adventures were farther out, but at no point do I recall that things get rougher, physically. I can't recall any other physical altercations where actual strikes were inflicted. Even the town where Dolores and whatshisname abandon his soon to be brother in law, it looked a lot more like they were grappling with him than beating him. Ditto when the MiB was captured by (crap, I can't remember. Confederate soldiers? The ones that recognized the host travelling with him and captured both of them).

Obviously I read/heard things wrongly as you guys seem to be in agreement. That's fine, my opinion is not strongly held.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by tiny ogre »

cheeba wrote:Some things I don't get:
1. I've already talked about this, but Felix. He went from just being a nice guy and helping Maeve to being complicit in the murder of like a dozen people? He had no motivation to do that. He didn't even look like he felt threatened or anything, he was just a mindless slave.
I've been thinking about Felix. He has so little apparent motivation for helping Maeve, but so much actual ability to help her, that I believe he is the one who programmed her to do all the things she's done. Not just the things he did because she asked him to, but all the stuff Bernard found as well. The bumbling fool is just an act for her, and the other tech guy's, benefit. He is secretly behind an entire operation that doesn't have anything to do with Hopkins' plans. Or at least was hired by outside forces we haven't met yet for that purpose.

I think that even if this wasn't the writers' intention this season, they're going to do it anyway, just to make it look like they actually thought his character through all along. Because otherwise it really does make very little sense for him to have done any of the things he did.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by TiLT »

tiny ogre wrote:
cheeba wrote:Some things I don't get:
1. I've already talked about this, but Felix. He went from just being a nice guy and helping Maeve to being complicit in the murder of like a dozen people? He had no motivation to do that. He didn't even look like he felt threatened or anything, he was just a mindless slave.
I've been thinking about Felix. He has so little apparent motivation for helping Maeve, but so much actual ability to help her, that I believe he is the one who programmed her to do all the things she's done. Not just the things he did because she asked him to, but all the stuff Bernard found as well. The bumbling fool is just an act for her, and the other tech guy's, benefit. He is secretly behind an entire operation that doesn't have anything to do with Hopkins' plans. Or at least was hired by outside forces we haven't met yet for that purpose.

I think that even if this wasn't the writers' intention this season, they're going to do it anyway, just to make it look like they actually thought his character through all along. Because otherwise it really does make very little sense for him to have done any of the things he did.

Keep in mind that even if you're wrong, he was likely hand picked because he was likely to do exactly what he did. Whoever programmed Maeve wanted her to have human collaborators, so the pieces had to be carefully arranged so that the humans wouldn't end up sabotaging things. No matter what, it's very unlikely that Felix was there by accident.
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GreenGoo
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by GreenGoo »

Finished #8 and #9 last night, so only the finale to go.

Once Maeve is out of reach of the techs I can just accept her as a rogue host and enjoy her plot line. It's when they have her helpless on the table, shut down and they do her bidding anyway that really gets under my skin.

TinyOgre's theory helps me accept Felix's behaviour, but there has been no sign of this being true, so it doesn't stick. I mean, I can say a car accident happened because space aliens but that doesn't make it true either. A hint or a clue of his motives would have helped me accept his behaviour, instead of turning me off the show almost completely.

That said, #9 had very little felix (maybe none? I can't quite remember) so I'm back on board.

Lots of reveals in #9. I felt the show moved too quickly even in the first 3 episodes where people felt it was moving too slowly, so this end of season stuff is just a firehose of reveals and plot twists. I'd prefer it drawn out more.
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