HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Carpet_pissr »

I must have fallen asleep during the part where they showed how the hosts can now injure real humans. What changed?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Exodor »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 9:56 pm I must have fallen asleep during the part where they showed how the hosts can now injure real humans. What changed?
I believe that happened at the end of Season 1 when Ford implemented his "new narrative" - and Delores shot him in the head.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by pr0ner »

Exodor wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 9:59 pm
Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon May 07, 2018 9:56 pm I must have fallen asleep during the part where they showed how the hosts can now injure real humans. What changed?
I believe that happened at the end of Season 1 when Ford implemented his "new narrative" - and Delores shot him in the head.
This is correct.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Thanks, I'm usually falling asleep while watching WW.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

I got a bit confused with the timeline in this week's episode. Am I correct that almost the entire episode is a flashback that takes place before the beginning scene where Bernard meets the owner woman who asks about Abernathy? That is, all the stuff in the fort, etc. takes place before Bernard wakes up on the beach?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Toe »

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 10:22 am I got a bit confused with the timeline in this week's episode. Am I correct that almost the entire episode is a flashback that takes place before the beginning scene where Bernard meets the owner woman who asks about Abernathy? That is, all the stuff in the fort, etc. takes place before Bernard wakes up on the beach?
I think so, but who knows, heh. Also we had Bernard telling Dolores about how she doesn't know about the "real world" when they were both in it in the previous episode. Was that the real Bernard then (that showed her the entrance to his lab/home after the party)?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 10:22 am I got a bit confused with the timeline in this week's episode. Am I correct that almost the entire episode is a flashback that takes place before the beginning scene where Bernard meets the owner woman who asks about Abernathy? That is, all the stuff in the fort, etc. takes place before Bernard wakes up on the beach?
Yes. Almost the entire episode was a flashback. They're still filling in the details between the start of Ford's new narrative and the opening of the season with Bernard on the beach.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

Toe wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 10:39 am
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 10:22 am I got a bit confused with the timeline in this week's episode. Am I correct that almost the entire episode is a flashback that takes place before the beginning scene where Bernard meets the owner woman who asks about Abernathy? That is, all the stuff in the fort, etc. takes place before Bernard wakes up on the beach?
Also we had Bernard telling Dolores about how she doesn't know about the "real world" when they were both in it in the previous episode. Was that the real Bernard then (that showed her the entrance to his lab/home after the party)?
Yes, I think that was the pre-Bernard Bernard.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by YellowKing »

I'm really enjoying this season, maybe because after Season 1 I kind of know "how" to watch Westworld. IE - timelines may shift around with no warning, hosts and people are indistinguishable, etc. As much as I liked Season 1, I spent a good deal of time just being confused. Now that I have some frame of reference, I'm finding myself getting into this season a little more easily.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by $iljanus »

Well, still processing the last episode but just have to mention that you should stick around till the end of the credits...
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Rumpy »

YellowKing wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 11:57 am I'm really enjoying this season, maybe because after Season 1 I kind of know "how" to watch Westworld. IE - timelines may shift around with no warning, hosts and people are indistinguishable, etc. As much as I liked Season 1, I spent a good deal of time just being confused. Now that I have some frame of reference, I'm finding myself getting into this season a little more easily.
The ironic thing is, I felt season 2 was more confusing than the first. There was way more shifting around in season 2 and way more time spent on misdirection. It's like they said, "People know what to expect now, so let's amp it up some and keep them guessing." And there was a lot of misdirection right until the end. This is not a show with a linear story.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

I thought the season 2 ending was well done. Probably one of the better 90 minutes of science fiction on TV in ages. It explained quite a few things, while creating a few new mysteries for season 3. I'll admit to getting a little frustrated with the story about the halfway mark this season, but then it picked up steam and we ended with this fantastic episode. Definitely in for season 3.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Jag »

hepcat wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:50 am I thought the season 2 ending was well done. Probably one of the better 90 minutes of science fiction on TV in ages. It explained quite a few things, while creating a few new mysteries for season 3. I'll admit to getting a little frustrated with the story about the halfway mark this season, but then it picked up steam and we ended with this fantastic episode. Definitely in for season 3.
I agree. I see many people hating on the episode, but I thought it was great and wrapped up a bunch of pieces. The timelines were confusing, but it made a fairly generic storyline more interesting by making it a mystery.

Also the post credits scene explained by Lisa Joy

Massive S2 Finale Spoiler in URL. Why they hell do they do that.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Rumpy »

Yeah, I thought it was one of the best season finales I'd ever seen.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

One of my favorite bits:
Spoiler:
All the hosts see the giant door, I say to myself "that just looks silly, they're really going to just have a gia..." then one of the humans asks "what door?".

The heaven analogy was spot on. Only the faithful could see/enter it.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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Spoiler:
I don't think it's so much that it was the faithful. I think it was the fact that only Hosts could see it. Notice that none of the humans see it. When the first GN goes through it, from a human's perspective, we briefly see him dive straight off the cliff, which happens right after the tech guy ask the rest of the staff if they see anything. But to the hosts they see him cross safely over. That fits with what Dolores was uploading to the system and giving the hosts a little hope. It was their promised land, and it makes sense that if it was some data, that hosts could only see it.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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In my analogy, faithful = host. That’s why I noted the humans couldn’t see it. :wink:
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by GreenGoo »

Despite my enjoyment of the first season, I seem to have little motivation for catching the second season. Weird.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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hepcat wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:02 pm In my analogy, faithful = host. That’s why I noted the humans couldn’t see it. :wink:
Oh, I see. Must have missed that little detail :D I didn't make the connection.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Overall I enjoyed this season, but every time "new" Dolores speaks, it's like fingers on a chalkboard. That whispery breathlessness is a bit overdone IMO. Sounds forced.

I also felt the writing or maybe acting for the Man In Black was off in the finale. Up to now, I felt his acting was superb, and so good I didn't "notice" it if you know what I mean. I get that he's in a reduced state in this episode, but his lines were so out of character, or delivered so woodenly, that they stood out to me (not in a good way).

Otherwise, fantastic series so far. I wouldn't put it up there with my favorites, but very, very good TV.
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If anything, the MIB has been my least favourite character. I like Ed Harris, but I've felt like his character in this has been one-dimensional and I haven't found him too interesting in this.

But yeah, Dolores. I much preferred her in season 1.
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Post by LordMortis »

Rented and intended to binge watch season 2 this weekend but my power went out. I got 8 of 10 episodes in.

Without being spolierie

So far the most sympathetic character is Mav. As she was an annoying distraction story in the entire first season, I would have never seen me be most interested in her story in the second season.

Delores, being the central and most interesting character "waking" in season 1, has spent the first 8 episodes with a singularity of unsympathetic purpose. I suppose I get why and her commitment to ideal concurrent with hypocrisy under enlightenment is driving the story but I find it's not the kind of story I like.

I like the expansion of topics and metaphors they are dealing with. Being able to juxtapose Mav's growth with Delores enlightenment is probably one of the biggest unexpected highlights.

I don't care for all the new concepts that should have been evident in first season that are driving the second season. It's easy for me to suspend disbelief and get lost in a well told story a la season 1. It's hard for me to suspend disbelief and be lost in the story when the rules of reality in the first season are different rules of reality in the second season.
Spoiler:
Everyone knows who Hale is in season 2 but she was a mystery in season 1
Park geography and moving about is whacked, where foot traffic in and out happens quickly
The cortical fluid?
60 hosts was a huge deal in season 1 but everywhere, even across parks there dozens and dozens of dead of hosts laying around unattended.
etc...
Maybe the last two episodes will reveal to me I shouldnt' be so hypercritical. I'll find out tonight.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by GreenGoo »

The middle episodes of season 2 were easily the weakest imo. I can't remember why at this point, but I think it had to do with the nature of the storytelling. It was less about specifics and more about setting the tone, for like 3 or 4 episodes which is beyond my tolerance levels that sort of thing.

Trying to redeem story writer dude didn't work for me.

I like the show and they obviously spent enormous amount of time writing Delores' character, and I'm continually impressed with the casting choice for her, but sometimes when things aspire to greatness and fall a little short it's more disappointing than if they never got near greatness in the first place.

Also if I pick up on a metaphor you know they are really hitting you over the head with it. I'm not exactly known for awareness while watching anything.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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GreenGoo wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:48 pm The middle episodes of season 2 were easily the weakest imo. I can't remember why at this point, but I think it had to do with the nature of the storytelling. It was less about specifics and more about setting the tone, for like 3 or 4 episodes which is beyond my tolerance levels that sort of thing.

My problem with the story this time around was that it was so scattered and overly complex to perhaps get around the fact that it wasn't that great of a story to begin with. I felt the series had lost itself amid the complexity. I felt that it was better when it was simpler and more direct, and that was evident in the Akecheta episode which is probably my favourite Season 2 episode. It was simpler and to the point and it was powerful.

I think that the show has an interesting concept that is both a boon and a curse. Creatively, I think it presents many opportunities, but at the same time, I think that if characters namely synths are able to come back time and time again, it diminishes the impact a death can have, and I worry that the more it's used, the more it becomes a crutch. Now Maeve is easily one of my favourite character, and I find she's the most internally consistent character, but after what happened at the end of Season 2, I'm not sure I'd want her back.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by LordMortis »

Man, I really wanted to like Season 2. Again I really like the metaphor and commentary they were playing with but the bad stuff was just so bad that I spent too much time being distracted, as opposed to the good stuff being so good I get lost in the art as much as the story.

As this just came out for us non HBO viewers, I don't want to get spoilery and by the time I would, I'll have forgotten what I saw and what I thought, so whichever. Assuming there is a Season 3, I won't be chomping at the bit to see it. I'll just remember how I felt season 2 was not so much.
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Yeah, I'm not entirely certain I'll be back for season 3 either. And I hate that the producers try to justify the weak writing while demeaning the viewers, as if to say we're not smart enough to follow their "brilliant" writing. I've gotten that tone from them via articles after the season ended. Whatever happened to being humble and accepting that they may have made mistakes?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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Rumpy wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:21 am Yeah, I'm not entirely certain I'll be back for season 3 either. And I hate that the producers try to justify the weak writing while demeaning the viewers, as if to say we're not smart enough to follow their "brilliant" writing. I've gotten that tone from them via articles after the season ended. Whatever happened to being humble and accepting that they may have made mistakes?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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Rumpy wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:21 am Yeah, I'm not entirely certain I'll be back for season 3 either. And I hate that the producers try to justify the weak writing while demeaning the viewers, as if to say we're not smart enough to follow their "brilliant" writing. I've gotten that tone from them via articles after the season ended. Whatever happened to being humble and accepting that they may have made mistakes?
I didn't read any of the self assessment but if that's what the writers think then, whatever. I can't speak for other viewers but my problem is that the artistry of the first season was lacking and the agreement for accepting the vision of the west world world was thrown out the window between seasons and that's just too much of a distraction for me to appreciate what is being put before me. I can suspend disbelief for a good story. While one of my favorite devices in all of the humanities is exploring the engagement between the author and the reader with some sort of active narrative (from breaking the 4th wall to the unreliable narrator to...) I can't handle the author establishing the ground rules and then throwing them out without something to latch on to.

while I loved many things like moving form MMORPG ideas to Social Media studies of customer as product ideas...
Spoiler:
Where was cortical fluid in season one?
How did Hale go from being covert board member infiltrator to a feared person everyone knows in the course of a few hours?
If William's Delos' super secret massive effort of deep in the park indsider programmers and builders and security teams were so superior in every way and know every little move they make why be subservient to Robert and company and why the difficulty of moving the IP off site?
If Bernard has long since infiltrated Delos super secret massive effort of deep in the park and bent it to his will, what the hell Robert even do to set all this in motion?
The geography and moving through these vast worlds so quickly was confusing. William even said, you could be for 40 days and not find who you were looking for and that's just in West World and yet every stumbles on everyone now, like they're StarWars family.
re-purposing 60 hosts was huge fucking ordeal because there were only supposed to be a few hundred. The Samurai army was supposed to be a few hundred
What happened to all these other world hosts? Why were only WW hosts cared about?

And from a subjective spot, I hate Wintermute/Tron anthropomorphism of a virtual world you can become a part of to explain an advanced nature of AI interaction. But that's me. That's not a change in agreement, but rather it feels like dilithium crystal move that I rarely care for.
And the list of distractions goes on and on. I don't want to care about these things. I want to sit back and enjoy the show. I could have nitpicked season 1, but the way they were playing with the art and advancing the story and we came up with an agreement about the world about how perception is not reality and I sat back and enjoyed the show. Season 2 said, well if agree that perception isn't reality then fuck it, the agreement is off. And now I'm going off, when the reality is, Season 2 will ultimately just be forgettable and a reason not worry about the future of the franchise.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Rumpy »

Daehawk wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:12 am
Rumpy wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:21 am Yeah, I'm not entirely certain I'll be back for season 3 either. And I hate that the producers try to justify the weak writing while demeaning the viewers, as if to say we're not smart enough to follow their "brilliant" writing. I've gotten that tone from them via articles after the season ended. Whatever happened to being humble and accepting that they may have made mistakes?
this is the age of its not my fault its theirs remember.
Yep, apparently. It's apparently an increasing sentiment that I see a lot more. And this is despite the fact that Season 2 had lots of criticism compared to the first. Meanwhile, a show is nothing without its viewers. I think the producers got overly confident over the first season's success and over-extended themselves. I've never seen such a drop in quality and tone going from a 1st season to a 2nd season.
LordMortis wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:33 am And the list of distractions goes on and on. I don't want to care about these things. I want to sit back and enjoy the show. I could have nitpicked season 1, but the way they were playing with the art and advancing the story and we came up with an agreement about the world about how perception is not reality and I sat back and enjoyed the show. Season 2 said, well if agree that perception isn't reality then fuck it, the agreement is off. And now I'm going off, when the reality is, Season 2 will ultimately just be forgettable and a reason not worry about the future of the franchise.
Yep, that's certainly part of it. They played it too loosely. Combine the fact that they aren't even internally consistent with the confusing narrative and you have Season 2 in a nutshell. It's frustrating because season 1 was quite good and I had a much easier time following the story. It presented a pretty awesome scenario and I was looking forward to seeing what they'd do with it in Season 2. Then Season 2 came along and it's as if it didn't know what it wanted to be. It was such a letdown, a muddled mess.

I guess you could say Season 1 had a theme of exploration. Guests exploring the frontier, exploring the idea of AI, etc. Even Season 1 Dolores had a wide-eyed optimism about her. Season 2 seems to switch to more of a spaghetti western genre, Dolores turns into a cold-blooded (well cold-oiled?) killer out for revenge and violence is ramped up.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Sepiche »

*shrug* I liked it.
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Post by LordMortis »

Dolores turns into a cold-blooded (well cold-oiled?) killer out for revenge and violence is ramped up.
Even though I didn't care for her character, I assumed it was by design and was willing to give her ironic reduction to a single violent dimension as a statement on being woke, on clarity of purpose, on "fidelity", which I thought were great contemporary explorations within the data aggregating, customers are products framework. It gave a chance for Teddy's character to shed his one dimensional being.

But then
a muddled mess
Spoiler:
She wakes to discover she created Bernard whose real purpose is to be judge about the worthiness of hosts for the promised land, something he would have never known if Eilse hadn't taken him to find out about it, Eilse whom Ford didn't trust, and Ford could foresee all the need for this going back a decade or more, plotting his puppet-mastery for every one concurrently while being the only capable of doing the code to run the hosts that assist in his bidding, well everyone except for the super secret Delos people whom Barnard was created to infiltrate, only no one seems to remember that Bernard that was an integral piece to the the super secret valley network which contained an undetectable external IO device capable of instantly taking on Hosts (of which we only care about westworld hosts) that the Delos security techs were ignorant of when they knew everything the Westworld techs and more know. Oh, and who knew you could control hosts with batch file spread by bluetooth? Only the spirit of Ford, I guess, who didn't bother to even let the host that was to use it know.

On and on and on. And again I didn't want to be distracted by these things but you didn't give me the pretty shiny pieces to keep me from getting distracted.
Sepiche wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:16 pm *shrug* I liked it.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by em2nought »

I think I noticed Season One for $9 at Walmart. What's the consensus on Westworld? Is the lack of conversation regarding it all I need to know?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Smoove_B »

I really liked S1. It's slow and you need to pay attention, but it's also something that will likely benefit from multiple viewings. I've just stared S2 so I can't comment. The general lack of conversation about any show (I take) as the relatively short shelf-life TV entertainment has anymore. With so many new shows being added to various platforms (even during slow summer / off-season times), I don't think it's possible to keep up anymore. We're absolutely in a golden-age of entertainment.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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em2nought wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:09 am I think I noticed Season One for $9 at Walmart. What's the consensus on Westworld? Is the lack of conversation regarding it all I need to know?
The first season was great. Avoid spoilers if at all possible. The second season... was. I would definitely recommend season 1 and then maybe pretend it ended there. I'm still hopeful for season 3 to give me what season 2 failed to deliver.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by pr0ner »

coopasonic wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:16 am
em2nought wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:09 am I think I noticed Season One for $9 at Walmart. What's the consensus on Westworld? Is the lack of conversation regarding it all I need to know?
The first season was great. Avoid spoilers if at all possible. The second season... was. I would definitely recommend season 1 and then maybe pretend it ended there. I'm still hopeful for season 3 to give me what season 2 failed to deliver.
I wonder if I rewatch Season 2 if I'll understand it more. Because I certainly struggled at time to time to keep all the threads together, and that's generally not an issue for me! It's like they tried to be extra convoluted because they could.

I will say that the Season 3 trailer greatly intrigues me, and I'll gladly welcome the addition of Aaron Paul and Vincent Cassel to the cast.
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Post by LordMortis »

I thought Season 1 was some of the best TV series stuff out there. Season 2 left me not caring about a Season 3 in the works.

I could watch Season 1 again and I've seen it twice already. I wouldn't sit through Season 2 a second time. For $9, I might go out and buy it if I were a person who ever bothered to shop or order from WalMart.

My problem with Season 2 might be my own. With 1 being so good, my expectations may have had me picking apart too much, leaving suspension of disbelief and love of narration in the back seat.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by em2nought »

coopasonic wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:16 am
em2nought wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:09 am I think I noticed Season One for $9 at Walmart. What's the consensus on Westworld? Is the lack of conversation regarding it all I need to know?
I would definitely recommend season 1 and then maybe pretend it ended there.
I can do that, it's what I did for the Highlander movies. :wink:
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

Oh, they made other Highlander films after the first one?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Rumpy »

LordMortis wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:19 am I thought Season 1 was some of the best TV series stuff out there. Season 2 left me not caring about a Season 3 in the works.
Yep, this. A bit like the differences between True Detective Seasons 1 & 2. The showrunners are going to have to show me they've learned their lesson from season 2 in order for me to have any interest in season 3.

Without giving anything away, Season 2 feels like the showrunners misjudged very poorly what was popular with the 1st season and amped that up to 11. Season 2 was needlessly confusing, a maze of timelines with much less focus on actual storytelling. The one episode they had telling an actual story without resorting to a timeline mess, it was stronger for it. As it is though, season 2 doesn't have great payoff for what they put viewers through.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Zarathud »

hepcat wrote:Oh, they made other Highlander films after the first one?
That was not a Highlander sequel. It was “Lee’s Folly” after our friend who insisted it would be the greatest movie made. “I was wrong,” he said afterwards.
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