Rip wrote:Very committed I would say, to the point of being rubes.
I love this stuff. Conspiracy theorists use this logic all the time. When presented with evidence to the contrary, said evidence gets labeled false flag, coverup, stupidity or naivete.
But I'm confident you see clearly from your chair in Louisiana whereas they only embedded with actual Iranians.
I don't claim to know what the average Iranian thinks. I'm not willing to dismiss a report out of hand because it doesn't support my narrative, however.
I'm not dismissing it out of hand as much as saying she has an agenda so I'm not going to assume Iranians aren't anti-American just because she says so. Especially when there are mountains of facts that indicate the opposite.
Please detail the mountain of facts that indicate that rank and file Iranians hate the United States.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
Just read an article with quotes and discussions from within Iran about Netanyahu's speech. Sorry no links, article was on phone, no easy way to get it to my desktop.
As you would expect, the thought processes of Iranians is wildly different from those in Israel or America. Some whacked out opinions, including one from a government higher up that this is just a game of Good Cop/Bad Cop that America/Israel are playing and that Iran won't fall for it. Lol.
A lot of Iranians believe this is the beginning of a major falling out between Israel and the US. I don't think that's true but if it is, it's because Netanyahu doesn't understand who needs who more. The tail doesn't get to wag the dog. Stop trying.
For the record, some of the Iranian government officials referred to Israel/US as the little and big satans.
Rip wrote:
I'm not dismissing it out of hand as much as saying she has an agenda so I'm not going to assume Iranians aren't anti-American just because she says so. Especially when there are mountains of facts that indicate the opposite.
Of course she has an agenda. She is trying to help resolve things without violence. I know that's a crazy subversive agenda, but at least she advertises it.
Is there someone or something that you would believe if they said Iranians are not all anti-US? Who or what is it?
Rip wrote:
I'm not dismissing it out of hand as much as saying she has an agenda so I'm not going to assume Iranians aren't anti-American just because she says so. Especially when there are mountains of facts that indicate the opposite.
Of course she has an agenda. She is trying to help resolve things without violence. I know that's a crazy subversive agenda, but at least she advertises it.
Is there someone or something that you would believe if they said Iranians are not all anti-US? Who or what is it?
Brian Williams..........
I tend not to believe much in what people say so much as what they do. When I see them revolting against religious extremism, hatred of Jews, and for freedom, secularism, and free speech I will believe it.
Here's the most recent polling I could find with a quick Google search. Full poll report (PDF).
Images of the United States – All Iranian groups [Conservatives, Moderates, Reformers] make very sharp distinctions between how they view the American people and the U.S. government. Each group has a predominantly favorable opinion of the American people (52% favorable vs. 38% unfavorable, three group average), but a predominantly negative view of the U.S. government (17% favorable vs. 78% unfavorable on average). On the whole, Iranians show slightly more confidence in President Obama than they had in President Bush (16% vs. 7% a lot or some confidence). Nevertheless, in contrast to most other foreign publics recently surveyed, a majority of Iranians (72%) express little or no confidence in U.S. President Obama.7
Differences between how the three groups view the American people and the U.S. government are not as sharp as the distinctions all of them make between Americans and their government. Pluralities of Conservatives (47%) as well as Moderates (50%) have a favorable opinion of the American people, while clear majorities of these groups have negative views of the U.S. government and President Obama. Three-fourths of Reformers (74%) have a favorable opinion of Americans, but Reformers are closely divided in their assessment of the U.S. government and President Obama. Reformers’ several images of the U.S. are far more positive that those of Moderates (about 25% difference on average), while the Moderates’ images of the U.S. are only slightly more positive than those of Conservatives (7% difference on average). This might be termed a “partial divergent” pattern, with Reformers being the outlier group (Tables 5A-C).
It would be interesting to see more recent data, given the impact of U.S. and European sanctions on Iran's economy. Alternatively, we could just keep posting pictures of people yelling.
AWS260 wrote:Here's the most recent polling I could find with a quick Google search. Full poll report (PDF).
Images of the United States – All Iranian groups [Conservatives, Moderates, Reformers] make very sharp distinctions between how they view the American people and the U.S. government. Each group has a predominantly favorable opinion of the American people (52% favorable vs. 38% unfavorable, three group average), but a predominantly negative view of the U.S. government (17% favorable vs. 78% unfavorable on average). On the whole, Iranians show slightly more confidence in President Obama than they had in President Bush (16% vs. 7% a lot or some confidence). Nevertheless, in contrast to most other foreign publics recently surveyed, a majority of Iranians (72%) express little or no confidence in U.S. President Obama.7
Differences between how the three groups view the American people and the U.S. government are not as sharp as the distinctions all of them make between Americans and their government. Pluralities of Conservatives (47%) as well as Moderates (50%) have a favorable opinion of the American people, while clear majorities of these groups have negative views of the U.S. government and President Obama. Three-fourths of Reformers (74%) have a favorable opinion of Americans, but Reformers are closely divided in their assessment of the U.S. government and President Obama. Reformers’ several images of the U.S. are far more positive that those of Moderates (about 25% difference on average), while the Moderates’ images of the U.S. are only slightly more positive than those of Conservatives (7% difference on average). This might be termed a “partial divergent” pattern, with Reformers being the outlier group (Tables 5A-C).
It would be interesting to see more recent data, given the impact of U.S. and European sanctions on Iran's economy. Alternatively, we could just keep posting pictures of people yelling.
I think they have a disconnect with who they think the American public is or what they think. They don't seem to realize that a substantial portion of what the government does is exactly what the people want. Especially when it comes to foreign policy. I would be more interested in hearing what they disapproved of as far as US policy (most of them probably couldn't name much) and whether they think these things were done without public support. Just because they might like the music, movies, or luxuries we enjoy, I doubt very much they like our ideals (which is who we really are) much at all.
I think it's likely that the average educated Iranian knows more about the complexities of America's social and political cultures than the average educated American knows about Iran's.
Rip wrote:Nice some pictures of a few dozen at most protesters to counter pictures of tens of thousands demonstrating for the opposite.
You're saying that you are not convinced by someone posting pictures of people protesting as representative of how millions of people feel? I can't say I disagree.
Anywho, none of your pictures featured "tens of thousands" demonstrating. That said, if you really want tens of thousands demonstrating:
Note that the people in these pictures (unlike the people in the pictures your posted) are risking beating, death, or imprisonment by the government.
GreenGoo wrote: Some whacked out opinions, including one from a government higher up that this is just a game of Good Cop/Bad Cop that America/Israel are playing and that Iran won't fall for it. Lol.
That thought had occurred to me -- not as a deliberate ploy, but certainly as a reason for Iran to bring these negotiations to a successful conclusion.
When did "progressives" drop their thinly veiled charade of being pro-Israel and decide to come out of the closet as being vigorously anti-Israel? It's happened sometime in the last 6 years when their beloved and very pro-fundamentalist president decided to charge boldly in that direction.
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.
At some places they play football. At Alabama we live it.
msduncan wrote:When did "progressives" drop their thinly veiled charade of being pro-Israel and decide to come out of the closet as being vigorously anti-Israel? It's happened sometime in the last 6 years when their beloved and very pro-fundamentalist president decided to charge boldly in that direction.
msduncan wrote:When did "progressives" drop their thinly veiled charade of being pro-Israel and decide to come out of the closet as being vigorously anti-Israel? It's happened sometime in the last 6 years when their beloved and very pro-fundamentalist president decided to charge boldly in that direction.
When did "conservatives" become so willing to have American foreign policy dictated by foreign rulers?
Both sides can play the "stupid generalization" game.
msduncan wrote:When did "progressives" drop their thinly veiled charade of being pro-Israel and decide to come out of the closet as being vigorously anti-Israel? It's happened sometime in the last 6 years when their beloved and very pro-fundamentalist president decided to charge boldly in that direction.
Nonsense.
Disagreeing with Netanyahu on Iran is not "anti-Israel."
Not agreeing with a flouting of diplomatic protocol related to addresses to Congress is not "anti-Israel".
Where the fuck do you get off calling me "anti-Israel"? I am nothing of the sort.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
msduncan wrote:When did "progressives" drop their thinly veiled charade of being pro-Israel and decide to come out of the closet as being vigorously anti-Israel? It's happened sometime in the last 6 years when their beloved and very pro-fundamentalist president decided to charge boldly in that direction.
When did "conservatives" become so willing to have American foreign policy dictated by foreign rulers?
Both sides can play the "stupid generalization" game.
Maybe when our own leader demonstrates that he cant lead very well?
generally speaking, of course
Name the 3 branches of the US Government: "Judicial, legislative....I can twerk"
Rip wrote:Nice some pictures of a few dozen at most protesters to counter pictures of tens of thousands demonstrating for the opposite.
You're saying that you are not convinced by someone posting pictures of people protesting as representative of how millions of people feel? I can't say I disagree.
Anywho, none of your pictures featured "tens of thousands" demonstrating. That said, if you really want tens of thousands demonstrating:
Not convinced. You need to post "Iranian" pictures from Egypt and Indonesia, like Rip did.
Rip wrote:Nice some pictures of a few dozen at most protesters to counter pictures of tens of thousands demonstrating for the opposite.
You're saying that you are not convinced by someone posting pictures of people protesting as representative of how millions of people feel? I can't say I disagree.
Anywho, none of your pictures featured "tens of thousands" demonstrating. That said, if you really want tens of thousands demonstrating:
Not convinced. You need to post "Iranian" pictures from Egypt and Indonesia, like Rip did.
Hoooo boy do Egyptians hate Americans. Probably because we've spent the last several decades supporting governments that have been oppressing them.
Rip wrote:Nice some pictures of a few dozen at most protesters to counter pictures of tens of thousands demonstrating for the opposite.
You're saying that you are not convinced by someone posting pictures of people protesting as representative of how millions of people feel? I can't say I disagree.
Anywho, none of your pictures featured "tens of thousands" demonstrating. That said, if you really want tens of thousands demonstrating:
Not convinced. You need to post "Iranian" pictures from Egypt and Indonesia, like Rip did.
Hoooo boy do Egyptians hate Americans. Probably because we've spent the last several decades supporting governments that have been oppressing them.
Huh, I'm kind of picking up on a trend here...
ya, we suck.
that's the "in" thing these days, apparently
Name the 3 branches of the US Government: "Judicial, legislative....I can twerk"
msduncan wrote:When did "progressives" drop their thinly veiled charade of being pro-Israel and decide to come out of the closet as being vigorously anti-Israel? It's happened sometime in the last 6 years when their beloved and very pro-fundamentalist president decided to charge boldly in that direction.
Anti-nonsensical war is not anti-Israel. Anti-Warmonger is not Anti-Israel. Anti-Netanyahu is not anti-Israel.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
msduncan wrote:When did "progressives" drop their thinly veiled charade of being pro-Israel and decide to come out of the closet as being vigorously anti-Israel? It's happened sometime in the last 6 years when their beloved and very pro-fundamentalist president decided to charge boldly in that direction.
Anti-nonsensical war is not anti-Israel. Anti-Warmonger is not Anti-Israel. Anti-Netanyahu is not anti-Israel.
anti-Obama is not racism. anti-Hillary is not misogyny. anti-gay agenda is not homophobia.
shall we keep going?
Name the 3 branches of the US Government: "Judicial, legislative....I can twerk"
Rip wrote:Nice some pictures of a few dozen at most protesters to counter pictures of tens of thousands demonstrating for the opposite.
You're saying that you are not convinced by someone posting pictures of people protesting as representative of how millions of people feel? I can't say I disagree.
Anywho, none of your pictures featured "tens of thousands" demonstrating. That said, if you really want tens of thousands demonstrating:
Note that the people in these pictures (unlike the people in the pictures your posted) are risking beating, death, or imprisonment by the government.
Awesome.
He go what a third of the vote? So he had about as much chance as Sarah Palin would have for POTUS.
msduncan wrote:When did "progressives" drop their thinly veiled charade of being pro-Israel and decide to come out of the closet as being vigorously anti-Israel? It's happened sometime in the last 6 years when their beloved and very pro-fundamentalist president decided to charge boldly in that direction.
Anti-nonsensical war is not anti-Israel. Anti-Warmonger is not Anti-Israel. Anti-Netanyahu is not anti-Israel.
We aren't averting a war we are just making it more likely and more deadly if it does come. But it is all good. I think it will be better to have it come sooner rather than later.
msduncan wrote:When did "progressives" drop their thinly veiled charade of being pro-Israel and decide to come out of the closet as being vigorously anti-Israel? It's happened sometime in the last 6 years when their beloved and very pro-fundamentalist president decided to charge boldly in that direction.
My reasoned response to this is fuck you. If you're not willing to engage in reasonable discussion then we might as well get down to really saying what we feel.
Not supporting Netanyahu is not anti-israel. It's anti-netanyahu.
Unless you being anti-Obama means you're anti-America. You reactionist, sound bite spewing shill.
While I realize you're saying things just to get a reaction, I do hope you enjoyed mine.
Zekester wrote:
anti-Obama is not racism. anti-Hillary is not misogyny. anti-gay agenda is not homophobia.
shall we keep going?
Not inherently, no. I'm not a fan of Hillary but it's not because she's Seldom Bin Layed.
Also, what is this gay agenda and why would someone be anti-it?
Zeke, people label racists and misogynists when they exhibit signs of racism and misogyny, not because they don't like a political figure. This isn't rocket science. Not liking a political figure because of their race or their female gender are signs of racism and misogyny. In case there is confusion.
Rip wrote:Nice some pictures of a few dozen at most protesters to counter pictures of tens of thousands demonstrating for the opposite.
You're saying that you are not convinced by someone posting pictures of people protesting as representative of how millions of people feel? I can't say I disagree.
Anywho, none of your pictures featured "tens of thousands" demonstrating. That said, if you really want tens of thousands demonstrating:
Not convinced. You need to post "Iranian" pictures from Egypt and Indonesia, like Rip did.
Hoooo boy do Egyptians hate Americans. Probably because we've spent the last several decades supporting governments that have been oppressing them.
Huh, I'm kind of picking up on a trend here...
ya, we suck.
that's the "in" thing these days, apparently
As a foreigner, I can say that your government has done some questionable things in the last few decades. Mostly it has been to screw over the American people, which is what is the most upsetting. That you can on one hand condemn your government for various things (such as net neutrality) and on the other hand claim that any criticism of your government by others is just a fad of America self loathing is mind boggling to me.
What is your deal? Is the American government beyond reproach or is it the source of all evil? Pick a damn principle and stick with it for more than 5 seconds.
WASHINGTON—In what is being regarded as a further provocation on top of his already controversial address before Congress, Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu doubled down against President Obama Tuesday with a PowerPoint presentation on the perils of the Affordable Care Act. “As you’ll see here in this chart, Obamacare restricts freedom of choice for people who were previously insured through their employers, while simultaneously causing insurance companies to raise their premiums,” said Netanyahu, who according to witnesses had finished his original speech criticizing Obama’s opposition to further Iran sanctions and immediately announced he would be discussing the president’s “fatally flawed and unconstitutional” health care overhaul. “Now, if we click over to the next slide, we see that the individual mandate forces many Americans to purchase insurance policies they cannot afford or simply don’t want. Why should the government be making our health care decisions for us?” At press time, Netanyahu was asking if he might have a few more minutes for an abbreviated version of his PowerPoint on the troubling unanswered questions that still surrounded Benghazi
msduncan wrote:When did "progressives" drop their thinly veiled charade of being pro-Israel and decide to come out of the closet as being vigorously anti-Israel? It's happened sometime in the last 6 years when their beloved and very pro-fundamentalist president decided to charge boldly in that direction.
Anti-nonsensical war is not anti-Israel. Anti-Warmonger is not Anti-Israel. Anti-Netanyahu is not anti-Israel.
anti-Obama is not racism. anti-Hillary is not misogyny. anti-gay agenda is not homophobia.
shall we keep going?
By you logic though, anti Obama is anti American
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Zekester wrote:
anti-Obama is not racism. anti-Hillary is not misogyny. anti-gay agenda is not homophobia.
shall we keep going?
Not inherently, no. I'm not a fan of Hillary but it's not because she's Seldom Bin Layed.
Also, what is this gay agenda and why would someone be anti-it?
Zeke, people label racists and misogynists when they exhibit signs of racism and misogyny, not because they don't like a political figure. This isn't rocket science. Not liking a political figure because of their race or their female gender are signs of racism and misogyny. In case there is confusion.
I am confused, but over your point.
All I did was mirror pyper's point, but with a different perspective. Did that make it less legitimate?
Name the 3 branches of the US Government: "Judicial, legislative....I can twerk"
