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The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:25 pm
by Isgrimnur
There's bound to be plenty to sustain a thread on this for at least the next ... 22 months.

Starting off, if you have enough pull, you can run the State Department, but never get issued an official e-mail address.
Hillary Rodham Clinton exclusively used a personal email account to conduct government business as secretary of state, State Department officials said, and may have violated federal requirements that officials’ correspondence be retained as part of the agency’s record.

Mrs. Clinton did not have a government email address during her four-year tenure at the State Department. Her aides took no actions to have her personal emails preserved on department servers at the time, as required by the Federal Records Act.

It was only two months ago, in response to a new State Department effort to comply with federal record-keeping practices, that Mrs. Clinton’s advisers reviewed tens of thousands of pages of her personal emails and decided which ones to turn over to the State Department. All told, 55,000 pages of emails were given to the department. Mrs. Clinton stepped down from the secretary’s post in early 2013.

Her expansive use of the private account was alarming to current and former National Archives and Records Administration officials and government watchdogs, who called it a serious breach.
...
A spokesman for Mrs. Clinton, Nick Merrill, defended her use of the personal email account and said she has been complying with the “letter and spirit of the rules.”

Under federal law, however, letters and emails written and received by federal officials, such as the secretary of state, are considered government records and are supposed to be retained so that congressional committees, historians and members of the news media can find them. There are exceptions to the law for certain classified and sensitive materials.

Mrs. Clinton is not the first government official — or first secretary of state — to use a personal email account on which to conduct official business. But her exclusive use of her private email, for all of her work, appears unusual, Mr. Baron said. The use of private email accounts is supposed to be limited to emergencies, experts said, such as when an agency’s computer server is not working.
...
Regulations from the National Archives and Records Administration at the time required that any emails sent or received from personal accounts be preserved as part of the agency’s records.

But Mrs. Clinton and her aides failed to do so.

How many emails were in Mrs. Clinton’s account is not clear, and neither is the process her advisers used to determine which ones related to her work at the State Department before turning them over.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:00 pm
by Fireball
It appears that John Kerry is the first secretary of state to use an official government email account, and that previous secretaries did what Clinton did.

So, I have an interesting perspective on this. Part of my job involves traveling overseas as a representative of the United States government. I even have a fancy special passport and everything. While stateside, I use a government-issued iPhone that accesses my government email and actually connects behind the government firewall. When I travel internationally, I am strongly discouraged from taking that phone. In fact, we have a special international travel phone that we hand out for such purposes, which does not have connections to the firewall. When traveling, we forward our official mail to an unofficial account, which we access through the phone, so that nothing official is ever exposed on a phone taken outside of the country. Perhaps previous Secretaries were receiving similar guidance?

Government systems use older versions of Exchange or Lotus Notes. In a lot of ways, Google Apps might be more secure.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:09 pm
by Rip
Not that anyone with a brain is surprised.
At 4:07 p.m., just minutes after the terrorist attack began, Cheryl Mills, Secretary Clinton’s chief-of-staff, and Joseph McManus, Mrs. Clinton’s executive assistant, received an e-mail from the State Department’s operations center (forwarded to her by Maria Sand, a special assistant to Secretary Clinton).

About a half-hour later, another e-mail — this one from Scott Bultrowicz, then director of diplomatic security (DSCC) — related:

Code: Select all

15 armed individuals were attacking the compound and trying to gain entrance. The Ambassador is present in Benghazi and currently is barricaded within the compound. There are no injuries at this time and it is unknown what the intent of the attackers is. At approximately 1600 [4 p.m.] DSCC received word from Benghazi that individuals had entered the compound. At 1614 [4:14 p.m.] RSO advised the Libyans had set fire to various buildings in the area, possibly the building that houses the Ambassador [REDACTED] is responding and taking fire.
At 6:06 p.m., another e-mail that went to top State Department officials explained that the local al-Qaeda affiliate had claimed responsibility for the attack:

Code: Select all

Ansar al-Sharia Claims Responsibility for Benghazi Attack (SBU):  “(SBU) Embassy Tripoli reports the group claimed responsibility on Facebook and Twitter and call for an attack on Embassy Tripoli”
Despite this evidence that her top staffers were informed from the start that a terrorist attack was underway and that an al-Qaeda-affiliated terrorist group had claimed credit for it, Secretary Clinton issued an official statement claiming the assault may have been in “response to inflammatory material posted on the Internet.”
This is going to be a fun election. If only the Republicans will put up someone other than Bush or Christie.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:26 pm
by hepcat
Oh look, Benghazi. It's the conservatives' Watergate...without the actual gate, that is.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:33 pm
by Jaymann
I for one welcome our new Clinton Overlords. If nothing else we get lot's of entertainment from the "First Man."

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:39 pm
by LordMortis
Email as official documents and record keeping has always bothered me.

Speaking of the Watergate wail is actually pretty convenient here.

I don't think I've ever seen anywhere that treats email as controlled document medium. As a collective, we really have this organic definition for what email should and should not be, all of the legal voodoo we like to invoke surrounding email just seems like puppies.

Somehow, I feel like I'm defending Hillary. I feel dirty.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:49 pm
by Rip
LordMortis wrote:Email as official documents and record keeping has always bothered me.

Speaking of the Watergate wail is actually pretty convenient here.

I don't think I've ever seen anywhere that treats email as controlled document medium. As a collective, we really have this organic definition for what email should and should not be, all of the legal voodoo we like to invoke surrounding email just seems like puppies.

Somehow, I feel like I'm defending Hillary. I feel dirty.
Yea it is horrible. Something only commoners should be subjected to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_archiving
Regulatory Compliance
As enterprises of all sizes grow more reliant on email, the business value of that content is also growing. To protect this increasingly valuable information (intellectual property), numerous standards and regulations have been enacted to require records protection and retention as well as timely response to legal (discovery) and information (FOIA) requests.[2] Modern email archiving solutions allow companies to meet regulatory requirements or corporate policies by securing and preserving data and providing flexible data management policies to enable authorized users to enact 'legal holds', set retention and purge policies, or conduct searches across multiple mailboxes to complete various inquiries.

Some of the primary compliance requirements driving the need for secure email archiving are:

United States

FDA Title 21 CFR Part 11
Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (FRCP)
Freedom of Information Act
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act
HFTA (Hedge Fund Transparency Act)
HIPAA
Investment Advisors Act
NASD Rule 3110 and NYSE Rule 440
Sarbanes-Oxley
SB 1386 (Only in California)
Securities and Exchange Commission Rule 17a-4 and SEC Rule 17a-3
The USA Patriot Act
Note, that many of the compliance regulations require the preservation of "electronic business communications" which consist of not only email, but may include instant messaging, file attachments, Bloomberg Messaging, Reuters Messaging, PIN-to-PIN and SMS text messages, VoIP and other electronic messaging communications used in business.
Kinda hypocritical to demand businesses do something then neglect it yourself.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:40 pm
by Defiant
It seems there are two issues here. The first would be transparency - that the emails weren't archived. The second (at least to me, though it hasn't been mentioned in the articles I've read) is from a security standpoint - that the emails are probably not encrypted and would be (presumably) hosted by a private company.

I guess the big question is, assuming everything does get handed over to archives and nothing had been deleted, is was anything sensitive ever passed through email (although even if she hadn't sent anything out that was sensitive, there's still the risk that someone replying to it would send something sensitive, so it's still a stupid idea.

I'm guessing if they did delete anything to hide some email, there's a good chance it might be discovered, since they wouldn't be able to (easily?) delete it from the other side of the email exchange.
Fireball wrote:It appears that John Kerry is the first secretary of state to use an official government email account, and that previous secretaries did what Clinton did.
This is not true (eg, Rice apparently had and used a state dept email address). And while she's not the only person to use a private email address, what's unusual is that she exclusively used it.

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that they would actually type much work email themselves - isn't that what Mrs. Landingham is for?

Edit: Also, if you're using your private email on a government server, wouldn't there be an increased risk of getting malware sent through email, since it's not goign through the government filtering - not that government filtering is necessarily perfect, but I would assume they have more safeguards than a typical email service.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:54 am
by Defiant
Here is an article that discusses some of the security aspects of using a private company to send email, instead of a government email.

Also, apparently, the email domain that she (and at least a couple of aides) used was created the day she started her confirmation hearing which seems like an odd day to create a private email address.
There are plenty of good jokes out there about how Secretary of State Hillary Clinton likely used her old CompuServe account as her private email address while conducting business (and whatever else) at the State Department. It turns out the operation was a bit more sophisticated than that, with someone reportedly registering the ClintonEmail.com domain the first day of her Senate confirmation hearing.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:49 am
by hepcat
I'm not a big fan of the Clinton family (Rip, pick your jaw up off the floor) so my vote was already decided, but I'm surprised to find out that there are more than a few folks in Washington using private mail for what appears to be sensitive information. Hopefully these recent revelations will cause them to step up their game.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:49 pm
by Jeff V
hepcat wrote:I'm surprised to find out that there are more than a few folks in Washington using private mail for what appears to be sensitive information. Hopefully these recent revelations will cause them to step up their game.
Snapchat. It's good for more than just sending penis pics.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:51 pm
by hepcat
Jeff V wrote:
hepcat wrote:I'm surprised to find out that there are more than a few folks in Washington using private mail for what appears to be sensitive information. Hopefully these recent revelations will cause them to step up their game.
Snapchat. It's good for more than just sending penis pics.
Sadly, I wouldn't know.

By the way, I just texted you!

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:21 pm
by Jeff V
If you're going to hold the camera so close, be sure to switch to macro mode!

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:30 pm
by Defiant

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:42 pm
by Rip

You mean her people ran it at her house.

I would bet every penny to my name she didn't actually run the server herself.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:45 pm
by hepcat
:doh:

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:59 pm
by Defiant
Rip wrote:

You mean her people ran it at her house.

I would bet every penny to my name she didn't actually run the server herself.
Well, Sure. But who does that?

This seems designed to be a preventative move to make it easier in case there were any CYA incidents that might happen.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:25 pm
by Smoove_B
All this is just secondary to the fact that we're not going to elect a 69 year old person (man or woman) to the office of president. I refuse to believe it will happen.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:30 pm
by hepcat
My issue with Hillary is twofold:

I honestly do think there's been some underhandedness in her family's dealings. I know that in light of my usual democratic stance, I should be giving her the benefit of the doubt. But there's been too many tales that sound a bit off to me. This latest with the emails is a perfect example.

Secondly, I'm not a fan of dynasties. I'm probably overreacting, but I'm wary whenever I see yet another familiar family name on a ballot, or bandied about in discussions for an office.

We need fresh blood in the Oval Office, not another Bush or Clinton.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:35 pm
by Zekester
wow hepcat....theres still some semblance of an American left in you.

Why is Hillary even being considered? What is the draw for her? Anything outside of being a woman?

Honest question.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:35 pm
by Defiant
Smoove_B wrote:All this is just secondary to the fact that we're not going to elect a 69 year old person (man or woman) to the office of president. I refuse to believe it will happen.
Uh, we already did so once.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:36 pm
by hepcat
Zekester wrote:wow hepcat....theres still some semblance of an American left in you.

Why is Hillary even being considered? What is the draw for her? Anything outside of being a woman?

Honest question.
And now I want to vote for her.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:39 pm
by Smoove_B
Defiant wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:All this is just secondary to the fact that we're not going to elect a 69 year old person (man or woman) to the office of president. I refuse to believe it will happen.
Uh, we already did so once.
I should have been clearer. We did - absolutely. It will never happen again.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:43 pm
by GreenGoo
hepcat wrote:I'm not a big fan of the Clinton family (Rip, pick your jaw up off the floor) so my vote was already decided, but I'm surprised to find out that there are more than a few folks in Washington using private mail for what appears to be sensitive information. Hopefully these recent revelations will cause them to step up their game.
The best part is that email isn't even encrypted. It's literally clear text over the internet. Putting sensitive information in it is insane for anyone, but a national government? Craziness.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:51 pm
by GreenGoo
Zekester wrote:wow hepcat....theres still some semblance of an American left in you.

Why is Hillary even being considered? What is the draw for her? Anything outside of being a woman?

Honest question.
She is a seasoned politician with actual ability to govern. She was pretty darn good as secretary of state (if benghazi isn't apocalyptic for you. It shouldn't be. I realize it is for a lot of the right). She's popular. She's confident, strong willed, intelligent and listens to advice. She's not overly left of center.

She possesses pretty much everything required in a political leader, with experience to back it up.

I'm not saying you should vote for her, but you asked why Hillary is being considered. If you think her only qualifications are her gender, then a) that gender has never, ever put someone in the white house, ever, so the idea that gender is her only attribute is bizarre and b) you haven't been paying attention. If Obama hadn't come along and grabbed everyone's imagination in 2008, chances are she would already have been president for nearly 8 years.

Do I think she should be president? No opinion at this stage. Do I think she is a contender and should be? Yes. Easily. And far more so than many potentials on the Republican side so far, despite their statistically more advantageous gender.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:56 pm
by Zekester
She's a seasoned politician alright...just like Bill. Seasoned liars. But to be fair, most politicians are anyway.

The reset button attempt was an embarrassment, and seriously put a dent in her perceived effectiveness at foreign policy.

She also towed the Obama line a bit too much to think that she may not be as far left as him.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:05 pm
by hepcat
Well, at least you've moved past "She's an ugly bitch!" as your primary reason for why she isn't a good candidate. You realize you only hurt yourself more when you spout stuff like that and then ask to be taken seriously, right?

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:19 pm
by Defiant
GreenGoo wrote:
hepcat wrote:I'm not a big fan of the Clinton family (Rip, pick your jaw up off the floor) so my vote was already decided, but I'm surprised to find out that there are more than a few folks in Washington using private mail for what appears to be sensitive information. Hopefully these recent revelations will cause them to step up their game.
The best part is that email isn't even encrypted. It's literally clear text over the internet. Putting sensitive information in it is insane for anyone, but a national government? Craziness.
Depends on the system. There are encrypted email services.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:21 pm
by Defiant
GreenGoo wrote:
Zekester wrote:wow hepcat....theres still some semblance of an American left in you.

Why is Hillary even being considered? What is the draw for her? Anything outside of being a woman?

Honest question.
She is a seasoned politician with actual ability to govern. She was pretty darn good as secretary of state (if benghazi isn't apocalyptic for you. It shouldn't be. I realize it is for a lot of the right). She's popular. She's confident, strong willed, intelligent and listens to advice. She's not overly left of center.

She possesses pretty much everything required in a political leader, with experience to back it up.

I'm not saying you should vote for her, but you asked why Hillary is being considered. If you think her only qualifications are her gender, then a) that gender has never, ever put someone in the white house, ever, so the idea that gender is her only attribute is bizarre and b) you haven't been paying attention. If Obama hadn't come along and grabbed everyone's imagination in 2008, chances are she would already have been president for nearly 8 years.

Do I think she should be president? No opinion at this stage. Do I think she is a contender and should be? Yes. Easily. And far more so than many potentials on the Republican side so far, despite their statistically more advantageous gender.
She's not without her faults, to be sure, but for the most part, this.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:21 pm
by Fireball
If nominated, Hillary Clinton would be the most experienced and qualified candidate for President since George H.W. Bush — who, despite his flaws and his failure to get re-elected, I consider to have been a pretty good President, easily the third best of my lifetime. She is unquestionably smart and strategic in her thinking. She doesn't take dogmatic positions and then refuse to backdown (something some people mistake for weakness, because those people are stupid).

I supported Senator Clinton up until it became practically impossible for her to win the nomination in 2008 (which was on Super Tuesday), and then ended up voting for Senator Obama in the primary.

Right now, I don't see a Democratic candidate more likely to win the general election. If one emerges, I may well end up supporting him or her. If not, then I'll support Secretary Clinton in the primary and, of course, in the general.

Gender is no reason to vote for her, or against her, even though her election would be an important historical moment. Age is also no reason to vote against her, in my opinion, though it does make her selection of a vice presidential candidate marginally more serious.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:34 pm
by Defiant
Fireball wrote:If nominated, Hillary Clinton would be the most experienced and qualified candidate for President since George H.W. Bush
I think this might be a somewhat debatable - Bill Clinton had twelve years of executive experience (plus a couple of more as AG), as opposed to Hillary's twelve years as Senator + Secretary. I'd also say that apart from experience, IMO, Bill has more skills for being President than Hillary does. Of course, that's speaking from hindsight as we've already seen Bill's ability at being the president.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:35 pm
by Fireball
Defiant wrote:
Fireball wrote:If nominated, Hillary Clinton would be the most experienced and qualified candidate for President since George H.W. Bush
I think this might be a somewhat debatable - Bill Clinton had twelve years of executive experience (plus a couple of more as AG), as opposed to Hillary's twelve years as Senator + Secretary. I'd also say that apart from experience, IMO, Bill has more skills for being President than Hillary does. Of course, that's speaking from hindsight as we've already seen Bill's ability at being the president.
Hillary has major executive experience, having run the State Department, major diplomatic experience, major legislative experience, and, of course, the innate knowledge that comes from being part of a successful White House for eight years. I think that dwarfs Bill's 12 years as governor, which only covered one of those areas.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:37 pm
by Rip
Plus she has lots of experience running an e-mail server.

:ninja:

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:44 pm
by Defiant
Fireball wrote:
Defiant wrote:
Fireball wrote:If nominated, Hillary Clinton would be the most experienced and qualified candidate for President since George H.W. Bush
I think this might be a somewhat debatable - Bill Clinton had twelve years of executive experience (plus a couple of more as AG), as opposed to Hillary's twelve years as Senator + Secretary. I'd also say that apart from experience, IMO, Bill has more skills for being President than Hillary does. Of course, that's speaking from hindsight as we've already seen Bill's ability at being the president.
Hillary has major executive experience, having run the State Department, major diplomatic experience, major legislative experience, and, of course, the innate knowledge that comes from being part of a successful White House for eight years. I think that dwarfs Bill's 12 years as governor, which only covered one of those areas.
I said it was somewhat debatable. It's more of a judgement call, depending on what matters to the person in the qualities for president by the person doing the judging.

I still think Bill has more ability at the Presidency than Hillary. But I'd welcome being proven wrong.

Edit: Wait, what about Gore, who was Representative, Senator and Vice Presidency with 24 years of experience. (Kerry and McCain might be potential contenders, but that's harder to argue when Gore's available.)

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:53 pm
by Fireball
Defiant wrote:
Fireball wrote:
Defiant wrote:
Fireball wrote:If nominated, Hillary Clinton would be the most experienced and qualified candidate for President since George H.W. Bush
I think this might be a somewhat debatable - Bill Clinton had twelve years of executive experience (plus a couple of more as AG), as opposed to Hillary's twelve years as Senator + Secretary. I'd also say that apart from experience, IMO, Bill has more skills for being President than Hillary does. Of course, that's speaking from hindsight as we've already seen Bill's ability at being the president.
Hillary has major executive experience, having run the State Department, major diplomatic experience, major legislative experience, and, of course, the innate knowledge that comes from being part of a successful White House for eight years. I think that dwarfs Bill's 12 years as governor, which only covered one of those areas.
I said it was somewhat debatable. It's more of a judgement call, depending on what matters to the person in the qualities for president by the person doing the judging.

I still think Bill has more ability at the Presidency than Hillary. But I'd welcome being proven wrong.

Edit: Wait, what about Gore, who was Representative, Senator and Vice Presidency with 24 years of experience. (Kerry and McCain might be potential contenders, but that's harder to argue when Gore's available.)
Yeah, Gore has a pretty good case for being more qualified than Hillary Clinton, I'll grant you. My consideration is more on the breadth of the types of experience a candidate has, rather than their drill down on any one category. I don't recall how much Gore was involved with foreign policy as Vice President, but he was pretty active in it. And he, clearly, matches Secy. Clinton in terms of participation in a successful White House.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:09 pm
by Moliere
White House says Clinton did not heed e-mail policy
“Very specific guidance has been given to agencies all across the government, which is specifically that employees in the Obama administration should use their official e-mail accounts when they’re conducting official government business,” Earnest said. “However, when there are situations where personal e-mail accounts are used, it is important for those records to be preserved, consistent with the Federal Records Act.”

Earnest said the administration would have to rely on Clinton’s assurances that she met the fallback requirement of sending along the pertinent e-mails to be archived.
Has anyone started calling this Emailgate yet?

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:15 pm
by Jaymann
Smoove_B wrote:All this is just secondary to the fact that we're not going to elect a 69 year old person (man or woman) to the office of president. I refuse to believe it will happen.
69 is the new 60. Besides, she could always get a head transplant.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:20 pm
by Kraken
Fireball wrote:
Defiant wrote:
Fireball wrote:If nominated, Hillary Clinton would be the most experienced and qualified candidate for President since George H.W. Bush
I think this might be a somewhat debatable - Bill Clinton had twelve years of executive experience (plus a couple of more as AG), as opposed to Hillary's twelve years as Senator + Secretary. I'd also say that apart from experience, IMO, Bill has more skills for being President than Hillary does. Of course, that's speaking from hindsight as we've already seen Bill's ability at being the president.
Hillary has major executive experience, having run the State Department, major diplomatic experience, major legislative experience, and, of course, the innate knowledge that comes from being part of a successful White House for eight years. I think that dwarfs Bill's 12 years as governor, which only covered one of those areas.
She is also, it must be said, uniquely qualified to take on the right wing. She's a cautious centrist but I doubt that she would be a compromiser. Too much personal experience with what it took Obama six years to learn.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:22 pm
by Defiant
Jaymann wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:All this is just secondary to the fact that we're not going to elect a 69 year old person (man or woman) to the office of president. I refuse to believe it will happen.
69 is the new 60. Besides, she could always get a head transplant.
Especially considering that (looking it up) life expectancy for men in 1980 was 70, while life expectancy for women now is 81.

Re: The Hillary Clinton thread

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:23 pm
by Defiant
Kraken wrote: She is also, it must be said, uniquely qualified to take on the right wing. She's a cautious centrist but I doubt that she would be a compromiser. Too much personal experience with what it took Obama six years to learn.
Some would stay he still needs to learn it.