SPACE - random thread about space stuff

[Daehawk]

Neptune's Elusive Rings Captured by James Webb Telescope

[dbt1949]

How long til they take a picture of some guy taking a pee on another planet?

[jztemple2]

Seeing that booster rollback in Texas makes me think about how they are going to do it at the Kennedy Space Center. It is quite a distance from their Assembly Building to Pad A.

[Zaxxon]

Solid thread. November looking more and more likely as weather forecast for next week solidifies.

[jztemple2]

NASA will have to make a decision soon since there are quite a number of preps to do if they need to roll back to the VAB. Makes the need for a waiver on the flight termination system moot

[Zaxxon]

[malchior]

Weird stuff from today's press conference which one commentator called 'off the rails' and led to several meteorologists scratching their heads. Perhaps it was some sort of super dry joking...but who knows. It ultimately sounded like they are going to tightly monitor the storm and make a decision tomorrow about whether they'll roll it back.

During the news conference, one NASA official demonstrated outright flippancy toward tropical weather. As deputy associate administrator for "Common Exploration Systems" at NASA, Tom Whitmeyer provides leadership for the development and flight of SLS and Orion. He did not sound overly concerned about leaving them out in a storm.

"As a reminder on weather, it is not even a named storm," Whitmeyer said during the call. "It’s a tropical depression, number nine. It’s very early on, and some of the traces we’ve seen go to different directions, at different speeds, and have different intensity."

...

However, Whitmeyer was fairly dismissive of their trade.

"I wish we were better at predicting weather absolutely five days in advance, and if I did, I would pretty much quit this job to go work for the weather bureau," he said. "I'm not from Florida. I'm from Washington DC, and the way we track weather in Washington DC is we pick up The Washington Post in the morning we see if it's going to rain this day. And so I actually am always amazed when I'm down here."

[Holman]

Question:

Why is NASA largely based in the South? Kennedy Space Center is in Florida and the Johnson Space Center is in Houston. Even the Marshall Space Flight Center is in Alabama.

Is this all largely because the South traditionally enjoys less heavy cloud cover year-round, or is there some other geographical reason? Or is it simply political?

It seems to me that climate change (hurricanes, etc) will soon make the South a less amenable region for rocket launches. If so, where should the next US spaceport be located?

[Zaxxon]

Question:

Why is NASA largely based in the South? Kennedy Space Center is in Florida and the Johnson Space Center is in Houston. Even the Marshall Space Flight Center is in Alabama.

Is this all largely because the South traditionally enjoys less heavy cloud cover year-round, or is there some other geographical reason? Or is it simply political?

It seems to me that climate change (hurricanes, etc) will soon make the South a less amenable region for rocket launches. If so, where should the next US spaceport be located?

Proximity to the equator.

[Kraken]

Launch sites are situated as far south as is practical because they get more oomph from the planet's rotation. You naturally want your control centers near the launch complexes. But there's a lot of politics involved, too. At one point Cambridge, Mass. was going to have a major NASA facility, but Nixon didn't like Mass. so he scotched that, and we got the Volpe Transportation Center as a consolation prize. As it turns out, that's on some of the most valuable real estate in the US (the heart of Kendall Square, next door to MIT) and it's now being redeveloped.

[Holman]

I was wondering about the equator. Thanks.

[jztemple2]

Regarding space centers, there are NASA centers up north, like Glenn in Ohio. Kennedy is located at Cape Canaveral because it was the best location for unobstructed launch trajectories. Marshall is at Huntsville because that was a major Army research and production during WW2 and indeed it was an Army Redstone that took the first Mercury capsules into space. Johnson Space Center is in Houston because of politics.

Those were some truly stupid comments made at the press conference about the weather. I hope they drop that clown from his position.

[Kraken]

From a comment on Ars Technica:

"Everyone said I was daft to leave a rocket in the path of a hurricane, but I left it there all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest rocket in all of Florida."

[jztemple2]

From a comment on Ars Technica:

"Everyone said I was daft to leave a rocket in the path of a hurricane, but I left it there all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest rocket in all of Florida."

I hope they gave proper attribution to Monty Python and the Holy Grail .

Seriously though, the use of the Cape for launches was a compromise, as any location would have been. But the clear downrange trajectory for launches and the closeness to the equator made it the best choice, even allowing for hurricanes. And having worked out there through several hurricanes, I know from experience how well prepared pretty much all of the structures are for hurricanes.

My concern would be that perhaps , with a new program, some of the lessons we learned about hurricane preparedness during Shuttle have been forgotten by this new generation. We shall see.

[jztemple2]

Just heard over the TV, no Artemis launch attempt on the 27th, preps for a possible rollback today, final decision tonight or early tomorrow on rollback with it occuring either Sunday afternoon or Monday morning.

[Zaxxon]

What an unforeseeable development!

[Kraken]

I know from experience how well prepared pretty much all of the structures are for hurricanes.

Structures, sure. Moon rockets? Let's not find out.

[jztemple2]

I know from experience how well prepared pretty much all of the structures are for hurricanes.

Structures, sure. Moon rockets? Let's not find out.

I'm sure the folks in charge aren't going to take any risks, not to mention getting a chance to deal with the flight termination system batteries.

[Holman]

From a comment on Ars Technica:

"Everyone said I was daft to leave a rocket in the path of a hurricane, but I left it there all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest rocket in all of Florida."

Latitudinally speaking, it seems like a launch site in extreme-southern CA/AZ/NM or southwest TX would be nearly as close to the equator as Cape Canaveral but with much more reliable weather.

[Kraken]

From a comment on Ars Technica:

"Everyone said I was daft to leave a rocket in the path of a hurricane, but I left it there all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest rocket in all of Florida."

Latitudinally speaking, it seems like a launch site in extreme-southern CA/AZ/NM or southwest TX would be nearly as close to the equator as Cape Canaveral but with much more reliable weather.

Yeah, but you'd be launching over land (to the east). Musk's choice of Boca Chica in southeast TX avoids that problem.

[jztemple2]

Latitudinally speaking, it seems like a launch site in extreme-southern CA/AZ/NM or southwest TX would be nearly as close to the equator as Cape Canaveral but with much more reliable weather.

Yeah, but you'd be launching over land (to the east). Musk's choice of Boca Chica in southeast TX avoids that problem.

Yes, but the launch trajectories (the azimuths) are somewhat limited from Boca Chica. It's ok for test flight but for commercial and moon shots the Cape is the place

[jztemple2]

By the way, after WW2 the Army did launch captured German V2's and derivatives from White Sands NM. When one went off course and landed in Mexico it motivated the search for a new launch site that resulted in Cape Canaveral being chosen.

[Unagi]

From a comment on Ars Technica:

"Everyone said I was daft to leave a rocket in the path of a hurricane, but I left it there all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest rocket in all of Florida."

Latitudinally speaking, it seems like a launch site in extreme-southern CA/AZ/NM or southwest TX would be nearly as close to the equator as Cape Canaveral but with much more reliable weather.

Also, in case it wasn’t clear - an eastward launch is essential.

[jztemple2]

From a comment on Ars Technica:

"Everyone said I was daft to leave a rocket in the path of a hurricane, but I left it there all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest rocket in all of Florida."

Latitudinally speaking, it seems like a launch site in extreme-southern CA/AZ/NM or southwest TX would be nearly as close to the equator as Cape Canaveral but with much more reliable weather.

Also, in case it wasn’t clear - an eastward launch is essential.

To be more precise, launching directly to eastward adds the Earth's rotational speed at that latitude to the rocket's horizontal trajectory. Deviation to the north or south lessens the benefit. Launching to the west subtracts the rotational speed. This is why the European Space Agency launches from French Guiana.

[Holman]

I do know some of that. Kerbal Space Program FTW!

[jztemple2]

I do know some of that. Kerbal Space Program FTW!

Me too!

[gbasden]

Also, in case it wasn’t clear - an eastward launch is essential.

To be more precise, launching directly to eastward adds the Earth's rotational speed at that latitude to the rocket's horizontal trajectory. Deviation to the north or south lessens the benefit. Launching to the west subtracts the rotational speed. This is why the European Space Agency launches from French Guiana.

What kinds of payloads get launched from Vandenburg? I think the launches are south/southwest?

[Unagi]

Also, in case it wasn’t clear - an eastward launch is essential.

To be more precise, launching directly to eastward adds the Earth's rotational speed at that latitude to the rocket's horizontal trajectory. Deviation to the north or south lessens the benefit. Launching to the west subtracts the rotational speed. This is why the European Space Agency launches from French Guiana.

What kinds of payloads get launched from Vandenburg? I think the launches are south/southwest?

They are shooting for a polar orbit. Pretty high-cost orbit, since you still need to achieve all the physics (delta V) involved in achieving an orbit, but you can't let the earth's rotation help you, in fact, you need to compensate for it.
These are orbits that are going mostly from pole-to-pole, instead of around the earth like a wobbling-belt.

edit: since the earth rotates under these satellites as they orbit N-S from pole to pole, the kinds of payload that want a polar orbit tend to be weather/imagery/spy satellites.

Also, it's used for some of the more exotic orbits, like a Sun-synchronous orbit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun-synchronous_orbit

[jztemple2]

Yesterday Vandenberg launched a spy satellite for the NRO. It went from Space Launch Complex Six (SLC-6 aka "Slick Six") which was the pad from which we were going to launch the Air Force Shuttle (aka Blue Shuttle). I was there in early 1986 as work was continuing on preparing the pad, but it was just after Challenger and there was already a lot of talk that the Air Force program was going to be canceled, which is was.

[Zaxxon]

Useful thread from also-a-meteorologist Eric Berger on what to expect today.

[Zaxxon]

And more...

[jztemple2]

From this morning's NASA Artemis Blog:

NASA continues to closely monitor the weather forecast associated with Tropical Storm Ian as preparations for rolling back the Space Launch System rocket and Orion spacecraft to the Vehicle Assembly Building continue. The agency is making incremental decisions that prioritize the agency’s people and hardware and its process is in accordance with established NASA policies for tropical storms and hurricanes.

The latest information provided by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the U.S. Space Force, and the National Hurricane Center indicates a slower moving and potentially more westerly track of the storm than yesterday’s predictions showed, providing more time for the agency’s decision making process and for employees to prioritize their families should the storm impact the Kennedy Space Center area.

NASA managers will meet this evening to evaluate whether to roll back or remain at the launch pad to preserve an opportunity for a launch attempt on Oct. 2. The exact time of a potential rollback will depend on future weather predictions throughout the day and could occur Monday or very early Tuesday morning.

According to the official launch chart I downloaded a while ago, there are launch windows October 1-4, then the next opportunities would be starting October 17th. So it's a tough call whether to roll back to the VAB and and go in the second half of next month or stay at the pad and trying to go a week from now.

There's a good article and video report from our Spectrum 13 folks interviewing my old Shuttle Launch Director Bob Sieck. He has a good quote:

“Like all weather-related calls, you wait until you absolutely can’t wait anymore, to see what the weather is going to do," Sieck said. "Then you make the call."

Bob was known as a weather guru when he was LD, often holding the Cape Weather officer's feet over the fire when Cape Weather would dither and meander over giving a straight answer. He was very knowledgeable about weather and had a number of weather info displays up at his station so he could make better informed decisions.

Sometime I'll related another old Shuttle era war story of mine, back when Bob Sieck was a NASA project engineer and I was still a wunderkind.

[jztemple2]

Great article, Delta 4-Heavy rocket deploys spysat on final planned mission from ‘Slick Six’

United Launch Alliance sent a triple-core Delta 4-Heavy with a top secret U.S. government spy satellite into orbit Saturday from California’s Central Coast, closing out a chapter in the tangled history of a launch pad originally built to support military astronaut missions on Titan rockets and space shuttles.

The spy satellite on-board the Delta 4-Heavy is owned by the National Reconnaissance Office, which discloses few details about its spacecraft. The circumstances of the launch Saturday — its launch site, rocket configuration, and flight track after liftoff — led independent analysts to conclude the Delta 4 likely carried a high-resolution electro-optical surveillance satellite into orbit.

The article touches on the NRO satellite program and the history of the Delta 4 program which now has only two launches left, both from the Cape. And there is also a nice history of "Slick Six", its past and its uncertain future.

[Kraken]

Great article, Delta 4-Heavy rocket deploys spysat on final planned mission from ‘Slick Six’

Link bad. Bad link!

[jztemple2]

Great article, Delta 4-Heavy rocket deploys spysat on final planned mission from ‘Slick Six’

Link bad. Bad link!

Link fixed. Fixed link! Delta 4-Heavy rocket deploys spysat on final planned mission from ‘Slick Six’

[raydude]

Today is IMPACT day!

We should hit the asteroid around 7:14 EDT. The software written by yours truly should get the final images out a few minutes later, followed by inspection and validation by the science team before we release them to NASA, which will then release them to the general public by 8pm.

It's going to be a madhouse at APL. They expect around 1500 visitors with lots of media coverage, parking lots have been blocked off for the impact event, and there's supposed to be some kind of pyrotechnics display at the Lab timed when we hit.

[Zaxxon]

Good luck!

[Isgrimnur]

[Unagi]

We should hit the asteroid around 7:14 EDT. The software written by yours truly should get the final images out a few minutes later, followed by inspection and validation by the science team before we release them to NASA, which will then release them to the general public by 8pm.

That is just so cool to me - /admiration!

So, question: the NASA Live official stream of this will not really be a live stream of the approach/crash - but rather something shared with us after 8pm EDT?

[Jaymann]

That is awesome, man.