Innocent until proven guilty...well, show us!

slambie · Post by **slambie** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:39 am

The Meal wrote:
I, for one, am never eating another Hersey's Kiss again. (Okay, well at least not until our daughter comes back with her Halloween loot.)

LOL. Yeah, you gotta watch out for those Hersey Kisses, Neal.

Kratz · Post by **Kratz** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:45 am

godhugh wrote:Fact of the matter is, CSL is one of the more vocal members of #gg and quite a few people associate him with IRC. When he posts something like that, it reflects badly on the channel as a whole. Unfair or no, that's the way it is.

If you want to dispel "anti-#gg bigotry", then you might want to work on keeping your most vocal members from posting that kind of stuff.

If you don't, then that's 100% okay. It's your choice. Just don't expect the nasty comments and discrimination from other forum members to stop.

godhugh, I think you know how ridiculous this sounds. You can no more say that what CSL does is #gg's fault than I can say what Tony/Unbreakable does is your (the OO mods) fault.

It doesn't have anything to do with me, or Percy, or ElBorto, or Dead_Meat, or ChaoZ or Orpheo, or Zedem or Jow (I'm just reading off some names in IRC right now) - you CAN decide that you will view all of the rest of us based on what CSL says, but you're smart enough to know that's neither fair, nor productive.

The IRC channel is no different from these forums - it's just a place that people who are into games hang out and talk about virtually ANYTHING (and at enormous length, dear god help us). We can't control what people do outside of our 'doors', because they are all individuals who make their own decisions, just as you can't control what people from OO might post on QT3 or CG. CSL is not "our" responsibility. If he is consistently out of line in #gg and does it in such a way that he needs it, he'll get kicked out - the same thing applies here: if someone gets out of line often enough and severely enough, you will kick him/her out, and if they DON'T, you won't, regardless of how they may act on another forum (e.g. Derek Smart, who was around at gone gold long after he'd been removed from QT3, among other places).

I said all this in this thread last night, but apparently it was rational instead of inflammitory, so as per usual, it got no response. Honestly? That just makes it look like you want to fight.

Come on, we're all bigger than this.

Post by **godhugh** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:46 am

Sith Lord wrote:
godhugh wrote: If you want to dispel "anti-#gg bigotry", then you might want to work on keeping your most vocal members from posting that kind of stuff.
Ok, yeah. I'll break his legs the next time I see him.

You know, at first I thought CSL's post was asinine. But the more I see of a mod on this forum defending this anti-#gg attitude based on the actions of a small number of the people who visit there, the more I think his (now edited) post had some real merit.

I never considered myself to be in either "camp." I post on the forums and I occasionally visit the IRC channel. What people like you and slambie don't seem to get is that everytime you take a slap at the whole of #gg (instead of singling out one or more individuals that you actually have issues with) it's a slap in the face to EVERYONE who visits there - people like me and MHS and DarkFyre and Brinstil and dozens of others who, to the best of my knowledge, don't in any way deserve it. Now those people I name may not choose to be offended by it (and I don't mean to speak on their behalf. Nor am I implying that some DO deserve it, though that may well be the case) but it really pisses me off. If you can't understand that your attitude is condescending and inflammatory, then you just don't get it(tm).

Sith

Heh, I'm not defending the attitude at all. I'm pointing out a possible reason it exists. You can choose to take offense to that, but I don't see the reason to do so.

Everything you've said so far regarding people taking unjustified shots at #gg has merit. However, until you realize why people have that view of you and do something to turn it around, it's going to keep happening.

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:52 am

slambie wrote:
The Meal wrote:
I, for one, am never eating another Hersey's Kiss again. (Okay, well at least not until our daughter comes back with her Halloween loot.)
LOL. Yeah, you gotta watch out for those Hersey Kisses, Neal.

That's a pretty good typo! Does dbt have a hearse emoticon?

~Neal

Post by **godhugh** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:52 am

Kratz wrote:
godhugh wrote:Fact of the matter is, CSL is one of the more vocal members of #gg and quite a few people associate him with IRC. When he posts something like that, it reflects badly on the channel as a whole. Unfair or no, that's the way it is.

If you want to dispel "anti-#gg bigotry", then you might want to work on keeping your most vocal members from posting that kind of stuff.

If you don't, then that's 100% okay. It's your choice. Just don't expect the nasty comments and discrimination from other forum members to stop.
godhugh, I think you know how ridiculous this sounds. You can no more say that what CSL does is #gg's fault than I can say what Tony/Unbreakable does is your (the OO mods) fault.

It doesn't have anything to do with me, or Percy, or ElBorto, or Dead_Meat, or ChaoZ or Orpheo, or Zedem or Jow (I'm just reading off some names in IRC right now) - you CAN decide that you will view all of the rest of us based on what CSL says, but you're smart enough to know that's neither fair, nor productive.

The IRC channel is no different from these forums - it's just a place that people who are into games hang out and talk about virtually ANYTHING (and at enormous length, dear god help us). We can't control what people do outside of our 'doors', because they are all individuals who make their own decisions, just as you can't control what people from OO might post on QT3 or CG. CSL is not "our" responsibility. If he is consistently out of line in #gg and does it in such a way that he needs it, he'll get kicked out - the same thing applies here: if someone gets out of line often enough and severely enough, you will kick him/her out, and if they DON'T, you won't, regardless of how they may act on another forum (e.g. Derek Smart, who was around at gone gold long after he'd been removed from QT3, among other places).

I said all this in this thread last night, but apparently it was rational instead of inflammitory, so as per usual, it got no response. Honestly? That just makes it look like you want to fight.

Come on, we're all bigger than this.

Look at it this way, if a mod here were to post a picture telling someone who'd helped you out to STFU don't you think that would reflect badly on the mod group as a whole?

Now, as I said, it's not exactly fair or justified that it works that way, but it does. When you actively associate yourself with a group, whether it be official (mods) or unofficial (#gg), your actions in public reflect upon them.

Trust me, I've learned this particular lesson many times here on GG/OO and I'm still working to adjust my behavior too it. I'm not telling you or anyone else to change (other then not posting that picture again), but I'd ask, if the anti-#gg stuff really pisses you off, to be a bit more conscious of what you're posting and how it's going to look.

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:04 am

Sith Lord wrote: you just don't get it(tm).

Sith

Kratz · Post by **Kratz** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:05 am

godhugh wrote:Trust me, I've learned this particular lesson many times here on GG/OO and I'm still working to adjust my behavior too it. I'm not telling you or anyone else to change (other then not posting that picture again), but I'd ask, if the anti-#gg stuff really pisses you off, to be a bit more conscious of what you're posting and how it's going to look.

What? Man, **I** didn't post it. I can't force CSL to do stuff, and I wouldn't try. That doesn't mean he, or anyone, won't get shit in IRC for acting like a knob, but we can't control him outside of that channel, and just as you aren't going to ban someone for something they do on #gg, we aren't going to ban someone from there (our only real "power") for something they do in here (which is why Unbreakable didn't get the boot until he started lying his ass off in there).

I don't come here and blame you for how someone from the forums acts in IRC, and people from QT3 didn't come to GG and complain about how you were 'letting' Lord Ebonstone be a dick on their forums - it's not your problem, and we're smart enough to make that distinction, as are 90% of the people on these boards. I don't know what it is that causes some people to blame all of us for the actions of one person in a different place, but jesus... I know you are able to make the distinction, but I don't understand why you choose not to.

Post by **godhugh** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:26 am

Kratz wrote:
godhugh wrote:Trust me, I've learned this particular lesson many times here on GG/OO and I'm still working to adjust my behavior too it. I'm not telling you or anyone else to change (other then not posting that picture again), but I'd ask, if the anti-#gg stuff really pisses you off, to be a bit more conscious of what you're posting and how it's going to look.
What? Man, **I** didn't post it. I can't force CSL to do stuff, and I wouldn't try. That doesn't mean he, or anyone, won't get shit in IRC for acting like a knob, but we can't control him outside of that channel, and just as you aren't going to ban someone for something they do on #gg, we aren't going to ban someone from there (our only real "power") for something they do in here (which is why Unbreakable didn't get the boot until he started lying his ass off in there).

I don't come here and blame you for how someone from the forums acts in IRC, and people from QT3 didn't come to GG and complain about how you were 'letting' Lord Ebonstone be a dick on their forums - it's not your problem, and we're smart enough to make that distinction, as are 90% of the people on these boards. I don't know what it is that causes some people to blame all of us for the actions of one person in a different place, but jesus... I know you are able to make the distinction, but I don't understand why you choose not to.

This is my last post on the subject since it appears I'm just making things worse.

I am able to make that distinction. I did not insult #gg as a whole. What I did (and could have done better in my first post, admittedly) and am trying to do, is point out why some people have a negative opinion of #gg. It's obvious you, and Sith-Lord, believe it exists and I agree with you.

No one is getting banned here, and I'm not saying you should ban anyone from #gg. I'm asking that you (in the general sense, not you personally Kratz) be a bit more conscious of what you're posting because, like it or not, in the minds of a lot of folks you're (again, in the general sense) representing #gg and the type of folks who are there. It's not fair, it's not justified, but it happens.

Kratz · Post by **Kratz** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:36 am

godhugh wrote:I'm asking that you (in the general sense, not you personally Kratz) be a bit more conscious of what you're posting because, like it or not, in the minds of a lot of folks you're (again, in the general sense) representing #gg and the type of folks who are there. It's not fair, it's not justified, but it happens.

Well, then help us out then - when CSL pulls a boner, and say things like 'CSL, you should be a bit more conscious of what you're posting' instead of pointing out that he visits the IRC channel, which doesn't help anything, and adds to the conception some people have that it's 'the channel' that does these things, and not individuals.

elborto · Post by **elborto** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:42 am

godhugh wrote:What I did (and could have done better in my first post, admittedly) and am trying to do, is point out why some people have a negative opinion of #gg.

And I think what Kratzer is trying to do, is point out that these people are idiots for it, and accordingly it is not on the part of the monolithic entity that is #gg to get these people's heads out of these people's asses.

Claas

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:02 pm

elborto wrote:
godhugh wrote:What I did (and could have done better in my first post, admittedly) and am trying to do, is point out why some people have a negative opinion of #gg.
And I think what Kratzer is trying to do, is point out that these people are idiots for it...

And that's *absolutely* correct. I doesn't make sense to judge a group based on the activities of a select few (assuming, of course, that the group doesn't consist of the underlings of the select few above them or somesuch -- it *is* permissible to judge {or form opinons at least} an administrator or manager based on the activities of her underlings, but hopefully that doesn't really apply here).

What can you do? People form opinions (valid or not) for whatever reasons they want. And you don't get to separate opinions from the folks based on whether they come from valid concerns or not. Forum staff deals with that on a nearly daily basis. #gonegolders as a whole get to deal with that. R&Pers get to deal with it. It sucks to have other people form opinions on you based on the people you associate with (unless, of course, you've managed to create an association method that controls everyone you let into your select elitist club, in which case you've got no excuses). People are idjits. (Now who's painting with broad generalizations?)

~Neal

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:16 pm

Kratz · Post by **Kratz** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:16 pm

The Meal wrote:What can you do?

Well, mods on this forum can start by not bringing up someone's visitation of the IRC channel, e.g. 'This is why #gg gets a bad name', when they act like an asshat.

gellar · Post by **gellar** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:20 pm

slambie wrote:
If you can't step back and act juvenile, it's certainly best for you to stay away.
This is so much fun!

And I look so cool with my thumb and my foot in my mouth and this big fancy asshat on my head. Everyone loves it! They fall to their knees and worship me.

I'm going to retreat to a corner with my friends and giggle over it all afternoon.

Seriously... what's wrong with you?

gellar

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:26 pm

Kratz wrote:
The Meal wrote:What can you do?
Well, mods on this forum can start by not bringing up someone's visitation of the IRC channel, e.g. 'This is why #gg gets a bad name', when they act like an asshat.

Direct that to "the mods" in question, then. (Have we become ironic symbols of the issue we're discussing yet? Should we keep working on that?)

~Neal

Kratz · Post by **Kratz** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:34 pm

The Meal wrote:
Kratz wrote:
The Meal wrote:What can you do?
Well, mods on this forum can start by not bringing up someone's visitation of the IRC channel, e.g. 'This is why #gg gets a bad name', when they act like an asshat.
Direct that to "the mods" in question, then. (Have we become ironic symbols of the issue we're discussing yet? Should we keep working on that?)

~Neal

Okay...

Godhugh, as mod on this forum, can start by not bringing up someone's visitation of the IRC channel, e.g. 'This is why #gg gets a bad name', when they act like an asshat.

And no, you haven't become ironic symbols yet... it is slightly different since 'the mods' really ARE an organized, supposedly unified group and literally represent 'your' site. CSL is just some ass who goes to IRC.

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:42 pm

That's well said, all the way around.

~Neal

Mr. Fed · Post by **Mr. Fed** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:36 pm

Kratz wrote:Okay...

Godhugh, as mod on this forum, can start by not bringing up someone's visitation of the IRC channel, e.g. 'This is why #gg gets a bad name', when they act like an asshat.

And no, you haven't become ironic symbols yet... it is slightly different since 'the mods' really ARE an organized, supposedly unified group and literally represent 'your' site. CSL is just some ass who goes to IRC.

Will the same logic apply to, say, particular forums?

gellar · Post by **gellar** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:37 pm

Mr. Fed wrote:
Kratz wrote:Okay...

Godhugh, as mod on this forum, can start by not bringing up someone's visitation of the IRC channel, e.g. 'This is why #gg gets a bad name', when they act like an asshat.

And no, you haven't become ironic symbols yet... it is slightly different since 'the mods' really ARE an organized, supposedly unified group and literally represent 'your' site. CSL is just some ass who goes to IRC.
Will the same logic apply to, say, particular forums?

No.

gellar

Mr. Fed · Post by **Mr. Fed** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:43 pm

gellar wrote:
No.

gellar

I thought not.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:56 pm

Kratz wrote:
The Meal wrote:What can you do?
Well, mods on this forum can start by not bringing up someone's visitation of the IRC channel, e.g. 'This is why #gg gets a bad name', when they act like an asshat.

As I recall the visitation of the IRC was brought up early on by Tilt. Obviously by posting that link CSL felt he was defending it. The whole comment was based on the subject of conduct of people on IRC, which the person in charge of that organization placed a link to in this thread, inviting a critique. Well actually I think it was intended to be funny, I for one just didn't find it so.

I'll avoid additional comment on the subject however as I really don't care how anyone acts. per se.

Allow me to make public my association with the site however so there can be no more confusion.

I provide the server and network for this site and I asked the forum mods to run it independently. They hear my opinion and I see what gets said. I have zero say in rules, bannings, etc. The may someday decide to to move it somewhere else, that's up to them. All I have asked of them in return is as follows.

A. Must hear my opinion. Discard it at will, but at least hear it.
B. Free advertising at some point in the future.
C. Do not violate my hosting AUP/TOS.

The mods here are very fair and balanced and that is why I was willing to give so much. I on the other hand am a very judgemental, right wing, stubborn prick. Please do not misconstrue my opinions and comments for those of the moderators. They have enough to worry about without needing to defend my often over the top opinion.

slambie · Post by **slambie** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:04 pm

gellar wrote: Seriously... what's wrong with you?

Who? Me?

Kratz · Post by **Kratz** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:34 pm

Mr. Fed wrote:
Kratz wrote:Okay...

Godhugh, as mod on this forum, can start by not bringing up someone's visitation of the IRC channel, e.g. 'This is why #gg gets a bad name', when they act like an asshat.

And no, you haven't become ironic symbols yet... it is slightly different since 'the mods' really ARE an organized, supposedly unified group and literally represent 'your' site. CSL is just some ass who goes to IRC.
Will the same logic apply to, say, particular forums?

How about just coming out and saying what you mean instead of trying to lay one of your clever traps for people.

Rip wrote:some stuff in reply to me

I was talking to godhugh, actually - see my posts above.

Rip wrote:As I recall the visitation of the IRC was brought up early on by Tilt ... ... the person in charge of that organization placed a link to in this thread, inviting a critique...

TiLT isn't in charge.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:52 pm

Kratzer wrote:
Rip wrote:some stuff in reply to me
I was talking to godhugh, actually - see my posts above.

OK. I think he was simply speaking out of anger (not to excuse it) mostly because it was directed at me. Which hopefully everyone can uderstand knowing the situation. This is also why I will try to hold my opinion a little more. I sometimes a little froggy, especially when my back hurts the way it has the last week or two. I don't want to risk anyone having to take some of my heat out of a desire to watch my back if you will.

Rip wrote:As I recall the visitation of the IRC was brought up early on by Tilt ... ... the person in charge of that organization placed a link to in this thread, inviting a critique...

TiLT isn't in charge.[/quote]

Sorry false assumption on my part, up to this point I don't really recall if anyone really is. I guess that is part of the IRC attraction, kinda like going to east LA and playing badass all day without having to actually get punked up

It seems I am getting old, because I get no satisfation from "chatting" I have some niece's and nephews who always want to get on AIM on Yahoo or whatever. Strangely often while they are on the cell phone at the same time. Actually the little I post here is all the communication I do outside of my family that isn't business related, although I try to put in a social paragraph or two in many business e-mails. Perhaps I just enjoy my work to much

Mr. Fed · Post by **Mr. Fed** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:14 pm

"How about just coming out and saying what you mean instead of trying to lay one of your clever traps for people."

Sorry, I really didn't see that as being obscure; I was trying to phrase it in a non-confrontational way. If there is any possible doubt here it is more clearly: people don't like generalizations of #gonegold or the universe of #gonegold users based on the actions of a few users. Fair enough. But then isn't it also fair to avoid generalizations of, say, R&P and its denziens based on objections to the actions of a few? Or am I missing something?

It comes down to whether people are asking for a form of respect that they are not willing to extend to others.

Edit: Anyone know why the hell this post is doing this all of a sudden?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:19 pm

'People' are looking into it.

Biyobi · Post by **Biyobi** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:21 pm

Not wanting to derail anything, but is anyone else's formatting of this page fuXored too? I've got most everyone's posts set on the left half of the screen and then Fed's post on the bottom set all the way to the right.

It's only this page of the thread and I'm on IE.

Edit: damn you quick typists!

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:22 pm

whew, I'm not the only one. I thought the Herpes finally got to my brain.

Kratz · Post by **Kratz** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:23 pm

Mr. Fed wrote:"How about just coming out and saying what you mean instead of trying to lay one of your clever traps for people."

Sorry, I really didn't see that as being obscure; I was trying to phrase it in a non-confrontational way. If there is any possible doubt here it is more clearly: people don't like generalizations of #gonegold or the universe of #gonegold users based on the actions of a few users. Fair enough. But then isn't it also fair to avoid generalizations of, say, R&P and its denziens based on objections to the actions of a few? Or am I missing something?

It comes down to whether people are asking for a form of respect that they are not willing to extend to others.

Edit: Anyone know why the hell this post is doing this all of a sudden?

Maybe if I post it will fix it...

Anyway, in answer to your question - I'm quite willing to take each person as an individual (and I think I have a pretty good track record for doing so). Doesn't mean I don't give some people shit, but it is on a person by person basis.

Except for R&P, everyone who posts there is retarded and should be kept locked up in a back room with 'Religion & Politics' on the door.

Seriously though, is there something I've said here that makes you think I'm not willing to do just that?

Kadoth Nodens · Post by **Kadoth Nodens** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:25 pm

The Internet is trying to reject this thread before it contaminates other websites.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:42 pm

As I said, people are looking into it. Top. People.

Gedd · Post by **Gedd** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:48 pm

Fixed. I haven't found the true problem yet, but I found out where the code was getting messed up. I'll try to diagnose it a bit later.

Samurai · Post by **Samurai** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:17 pm

Look down for my argument, this post is now superfluous.

slambie · Post by **slambie** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:35 pm

Nothin'

slambie · Post by **slambie** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:35 pm

*snicker*

I can see now why Unbreakable was able to so completely pwn you guys. You're way too easy.

Dirt · Post by **Dirt** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:45 pm

gellar wrote:
slambie wrote:
If you can't step back and act juvenile, it's certainly best for you to stay away.
This is so much fun!

And I look so cool with my thumb and my foot in my mouth and this big fancy asshat on my head. Everyone loves it! They fall to their knees and worship me.

I'm going to retreat to a corner with my friends and giggle over it all afternoon.
Seriously... what's wrong with you?

gellar

Seriously, you're throwing gas onto fire nobody needs. It'll burn out on it's own if you just ignore it.

Dirt · Post by **Dirt** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:46 pm

SuperHiro wrote:whew, I'm not the only one. I thought the Herpes finally got to my brain.

You too?

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:48 pm

I'm still waiting for TiLT or some other qualified #gger to e-mail ME proof that IRC Unbreakable was really in there admitting he was Tony.

Because until I see it, I'm not going to go into the IRC channel and spy for Running Man *any more*.

Kratz · Post by **Kratz** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:58 pm

Interesting you chose to quote gellar and not slambie, Dirt.

slambie, the 'I have no response, so I'll pretend like I got you' response doesn't suit you.

You want to imply that every single person who hangs out in IRC is young, immature, and childish? Fine - turnabout is fairplay - here's a newsflash:

You're old, your jokes are tired, and the whole 'I'm a girl thing' stopped being cute for you thirty five years ago.

Lord Percy · Post by **Lord Percy** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:01 pm

Zing!