Octopus Overlords

bb2112 wrote:

Grundbegriff wrote:

Remus West wrote: due to the rarity of death.

Agreed. Finding a way to keep everyone in the game was the brilliant innovation in The Resistance/Avalon, and giving people something to do that *potentially* generates useful information is how Secret Hitler builds onthat foundation.

Say... anyone up for a game of Avalon? It's like this reskinned in Arthurian garb, with the elections but without the policies. Plus Merlin knows everyone's alignment but evil wins if they guess who's Merlin.

I was going to start a sign up page for another Secret Hitler first...

Yes, of course. I wouldn't want to host another before I've tasted a few!

I was just gauging interest.

Remus West wrote:

Grundbegriff wrote:It seemed as if the game was frustrating. Does everyone agree with that sentiment?

More importantly, did you have fun, or did it seem like a chore? Is Secret Hitler a good game?

Loved it! The uncertainty made it enjoyable mostly due to the rarity of death.

Even the uncertainty of Remus having the chance to kill me for shits and giggles at the cost of a Fascist Policy enacted...

Would have been worth it, Chaos.

Yeah I had a great time. It got a little frustrating as the game progressed towards the end - especially once the fourth liberal policy was enacted - because the fascists were pretty much screwed, and I had to defend increasingly absurd positions, so at that point it felt like we were just waiting to die (or for a miracle, which would have happened but for that damn veto). But I don't know that there's much in terms of rule changes as a result - possibly voting time limits that were hashed out during the game to speed things up. And again, I very much enjoyed the game.

Also, in terms of the post-mortem, the big decision I faced was pretty much right at the beginning, when Vorret passed me FL. I enacted a liberal policy mainly figuring that if the Vorret / Guapo administration enacted a fascist policy then the electorate wouldn't let Vorret sniff the chancellorship in the late game (and buying me some early lib cred as well, though that was a minor factor in my decision).

Though thinking about it again in light of experience playing the game, I wonder if it would have been worth it to enact the fascist policy - would have signaled early to Vorret that I was a fascist, and given Vorret one of the two scans (and keeping it out of the hands of those damn liberals). But would anyone have let Vorret near the chancellorship late? I think the ideal plan might have been to pass the F and get into a fake argument with Vorret over it, then play super aggressive, with me effectively serving as the fall guy. BUT there was no way to plan that out with Vorret - I assume he would have backed me up and claimed to have drawn FFF.

Of course, then during the CR / Guapo administration we had two liberal and zero fascist policies, so I felt like I had no choice but to enact a fascist policy and try to blame CR. That was kind of fun, though.

More generally I don't think I factored the scans sufficiently into my early game analysis. If only CR had scanned Holman instead of bb2112...

El Guapo wrote:Also, in terms of the post-mortem, the big decision I faced was pretty much right at the beginning, when Vorret passed me FL. I enacted a liberal policy mainly figuring that if the Vorret / Guapo administration enacted a fascist policy then the electorate wouldn't let Vorret sniff the chancellorship in the late game (and buying me some early lib cred as well, though that was a minor factor in my decision).

Though thinking about it again in light of experience playing the game, I wonder if it would have been worth it to enact the fascist policy - would have signaled early to Vorret that I was a fascist, and given Vorret one of the two scans (and keeping it out of the hands of those damn liberals). But would anyone have let Vorret near the chancellorship late? I think the ideal plan might have been to pass the F and get into a fake argument with Vorret over it, then play super aggressive, with me effectively serving as the fall guy. BUT there was no way to plan that out with Vorret - I assume he would have backed me up and claimed to have drawn FFF.

Of course, then during the CR / Guapo administration we had two liberal and zero fascist policies, so I felt like I had no choice but to enact a fascist policy and try to blame CR. That was kind of fun, though.

More generally I don't think I factored the scans sufficiently into my early game analysis. If only CR had scanned Holman instead of bb2112...

Yeah, it was a first game. The scans really worked against us and it probably would have been better if you came out to Vorret and got the scan by voting the F policy. I think early on that everyone would have believed the FFF and it would have really screwed with the Liberals counting cards scheme. But who knows, it still came down to the wire.

El Guapo wrote:I think the ideal plan might have been to pass the F and get into a fake argument with Vorret over it, then play super aggressive, with me effectively serving as the fall guy. BUT there was no way to plan that out with Vorret - I assume he would have backed me up and claimed to have drawn FFF.

It seems this game requires some flexibility on the part of Fascists. They have to take cues from Hitler to ensure that Hitler remains trusted.
Since it was so early in the game, the odds of actually drawing FFF were high. I think if you had claimed FF and Vorret had confirmed FFF, everyone would've believed it, grudgingly.

Of course, then during the CR / Guapo administration we had two liberal and zero fascist policies, so I felt like I had no choice but to enact a fascist policy and try to blame CR. That was kind of fun, though.

Coming out as Fascist is a viable strategy, especially if you think you'll gain the chance to kill an opponent and skew the vote.

More generally I don't think I factored the scans sufficiently into my early game analysis. If only CR had scanned Holman instead of bb2112...

I wouldn't know, since I haven't played yet, but I can imagine that lying about scans is a powerful weapon in the hands of Fascists.

Yeah I feel the next game will be played much more aggressively from both Hitler and the Fascist now that we kinda know what to expect.

I got Hitler, first presidency and was matched with a Fascist chancellor, that's some crazy odds right there.

Grundbegriff wrote:

El Guapo wrote:I think the ideal plan might have been to pass the F and get into a fake argument with Vorret over it, then play super aggressive, with me effectively serving as the fall guy. BUT there was no way to plan that out with Vorret - I assume he would have backed me up and claimed to have drawn FFF.

It seems this game requires some flexibility on the part of Fascists. They have to take cues from Hitler to ensure that Hitler remains trusted.
Since it was so early in the game, the odds of actually drawing FFF were high. I think if you had claimed FF and Vorret had confirmed FFF, everyone would've believed it, grudgingly.

I don't doubt that people would have mostly believed it at the time, absent some dispute between me and Vorret. My concern was more that later in the game Vorret might well have a cloud of suspicion lingering around him that would impede his chancellorship chances.

Who knows, though knowing what I know now I would be inclined to pick the fascist policy in those circumstances.

There was a cloud over everyone until the Holman/Chaos admin did what it did. I sincerely believed you were Liberal for much of the game.

I think if El Guapo had passed a F policy right away and then he and Vorret had argued about it they would have gained more trust. People would have sided with one or the other and with only 1 remaining scan.....

El Guapo wrote:I don't doubt that people would have mostly believed it at the time, absent some dispute between me and Vorret. My concern was more that later in the game Vorret might well have a cloud of suspicion lingering around him that would impede his chancellorship chances.

You're probably right about that. Especially stessier, who always had a good eye for the logical gaps that interfered with trust.

Remus West wrote:I think if El Guapo had passed a F policy right away and then he and Vorret had argued about it they would have gained more trust. People would have sided with one or the other and with only 1 remaining scan.....

Yeah, that would have been the ideal outcome, but without PMs I assume that Vorret would have backed me up (claimed FFF). It would be hard for me to signal to him that I want him to dispute me, because a nominal liberal chancellor wouldn't fight the president unless and until they claimed that they passed FL instead of FF.

El Guapo wrote:

Remus West wrote:I think if El Guapo had passed a F policy right away and then he and Vorret had argued about it they would have gained more trust. People would have sided with one or the other and with only 1 remaining scan.....

Yeah, that would have been the ideal outcome, but without PMs I assume that Vorret would have backed me up (claimed FFF). It would be hard for me to signal to him that I want him to dispute me, because a nominal liberal chancellor wouldn't fight the president unless and until they claimed that they passed FL instead of FF.

It's a good tactic. So the thing to note, wrt Hitler/Fascist relations, is that if Hitler is Prez, and Fascist plays an F, Hitler can productively go either way-- confirm FFF or deny and bicker. And Fascist, knowing that Hitler is Hitler, will have to pick up the cue and play along with the harmony or bickering.

Hitler calls the shots, in that case.

I'm beginning to think that the first Fascist who get matched up with Hitler has to lie (if he's the Chancellor) or dispute him (if the Fascist is the President). Hitler needs a point of reference and the black mark from a dispute can be turned if other policies get passed (see the Vorret/Holman FFF turn).

Mental note for next game: Force the President to announce his draw first......

Remus West wrote:Mental note for next game: Force the President to announce his draw first......

That'll be hard since the official rules prohibit them from speaking!

Remus West wrote:Mental note for next game: Force the President to announce his draw first......

I was surprised no one did that. The only requirement is that the Chancellor announce his policy - not that he say what the second card was.

Edit: I took this to mean have the President announce what he passed after the Policy is shown but before the Chancellor says what the other card was.

I know, I know...

"We have ways of making them talk."

Grundbegriff wrote:

Remus West wrote:Mental note for next game: Force the President to announce his draw first......

That'll be hard since the official rules prohibit them from speaking!

After the policy is passed.
Chanc announces L/F
President says I drew FFF/FFL/FLL/LLL
Chanc announces what he was given to work with.
but, yeah, the was due to the rules and the thinking that all that does is switch the burden of bicker or not onto the Fascist from Hitler.

stessier wrote:Edit: I took this to mean have the President announce what he passed after the Policy is shown but before the Chancellor says what the other card was.

On reflection, I think your reading of Remus is right.

stessier wrote:I'm beginning to think that the first Fascist who get matched up with Hitler has to lie (if he's the Chancellor) or dispute him (if the Fascist is the President). Hitler needs a point of reference and the black mark from a dispute can be turned if other policies get passed (see the Vorret/Holman FFF turn).

Yeah, had El G picked F I would have known of at least one ally.
But then the rest of the game would have been really different so it's hard to tell what the result would have been!