Octopus Overlords

Chevy is starting to ramp up their Bolt talk now that they are being produced for delivery by EoY. They announced yesterday that their previously-nebulous 'at least 200 miles of range' is an EPA rating of 238 miles. Press drives are happening (and are positive), and there's now a Chevy website aimed at educating folks on how an EV works, complete with FAQ videos.

I remain on the Tesla Model 3 bandwagon, but it's nice to see that GM is possibly going to treat the Bolt like an actual vehicle that it wants to sell rather than just as a compliance car. If we can get a couple more manufacturers on board with similarly-competitive EVs, we'll be in business.

Are any of you considering this car, or the Model 3, next-gen Leaf, or other full EV?

The only fully EV Ford has now is the Focus and I won't get another Focus. They're too uncomfortable and I'm getting too old for too uncomfortable.

I'd consider a Fusion type EV or Edge Hybrid chargeable, if it weren't my home electric being so shoddy. That and I'd want more than the Focus electric estimated 110 miles per charge. Beyond that, even with family discount, the pricing of the Focus Electric is out of my price range so the Fusion or Edge would be non starters.

A slowdown at work has changed my new car buying plans. I was pretty much shooting for a Volt by the end of the year, but now that isn't happening - likely for at least 18 months, possibly longer.

I would totally consider the Bolt, but my wife is not on board with any all electrical vehicle. Doesn't matter that 95% of our drives are less than 50 miles or that we still have the minivan when we want to go farther. I'm not sure how to get through that roadblock.

stessier wrote:A slowdown at work has changed my new car buying plans. I was pretty much shooting for a Volt by the end of the year, but now that isn't happening - likely for at least 18 months, possibly longer.

I would totally consider the Bolt, but my wife is not on board with any all electrical vehicle. Doesn't matter that 95% of our drives are less than 50 miles or that we still have the minivan when we want to go farther. I'm not sure how to get through that roadblock.

I'm hoping for the money for a fuel efficient version of the Fusion within the next two years and that both my car and my body can survive another two years working together. If the Fusion is replaced or drastically changed in the next two years I don't know what I'll do. I don't trust any make or model of new car.

Yeah, I've been giving some thought to electric / PHEV cars lately, especially with our Civic maintenance costs on the upswing (and the generous tax credits on this). It's on my to do list to do some more research on it.

238 miles is great, so I'll definitely take a look at the Bolt. I'm a little wary though, even with the long range, of whether it would be too much of a hassle to use as our only car (since we're not going to have two cars any time soon). It's not like we take a ton of road trips, but we not infrequently do things like drive from Boston to western Mass. and back (~ 108 miles each way), which could create some PITA logistics. But I guess I should watch the FAQ videos.

I do think that a PHEV is likely to be more practical, though.

108 mi each way in a Bolt shouldn't be too bad. Unless you're a lead foot or the weather is terrible you're likely looking at a single charge. If you can plug in overnight at the destination or find even a single DC fast-charge station that you're content to use for 30 min on either leg of the trip and you're golden.

Although the Bolt looks small, so its feasibility in general on road trips would be questionable to me.

Zaxxon wrote:108 mi each way in a Bolt shouldn't be too bad. Unless you're a lead foot or the weather is terrible you're likely looking at a single charge. If you can plug in overnight at the destination or find even a single DC fast-charge station that you're content to use for 30 min on either leg of the trip and you're golden.

Although the Bolt looks small, so its feasibility in general on road trips would be questionable to me.

What I worry about is that stopping to charge mid-route for 30 minutes is definitely too long to be feasible for family road trips. It would be great if a battery could be swapped out for a fresh (charged) battery, though google seems to indicate that that's not in the cards, at least not anytime soon. I guess the question is whether charging stations are conveniently located such that we'd charge during a road stop for lunch, or something.

There's the possibility of charging at our destination (e.g., sister's house), though I don't know how convenient outlets are located at my relative's houses.

Don't you have kids? Stopping for 30 minutes every 90 minutes is almost guaranteed with mine.

stessier wrote:Don't you have kids? Stopping for 30 minutes every 90 minutes is almost guaranteed with mine.

Yeah, I never understand when people (and I don't just mean Guapo--it's all over the place) say that a 30-min stop is untenable. It's not like these chargers are placed in the middle of the desert. Stop, send those that need to pee over to a restroom, perhaps get a bite to eat, and you've spent no time that you wouldn't have already had to spend.

There are exceptions of course, but I think stopping every couple hours is the rule, not the exception. It's more of an issue on a 230-mile Bolt with 50kW charging than on a 300-mile Tesla with 135 kW charging, but it's still a small issue for me so long as I'm not considering replacing a car that's used for 90% road trips or something. Remember, during the [presumably far, far larger percentage of] time when you're not road-tripping, you're saving time by spending 5-10 seconds plugging in each day vs several minutes at the gas station each week.

I kid you not, this came across my feed just after my last reply:

Chargepoint announces completion of express charging corridors, including near Boston. Includes info on amenities nearby these fast-charge stations.

Zaxxon wrote:I kid you not, this came across my feed just after my last reply:

Chargepoint announces completion of express charging corridors, including near Boston. Includes info on amenities nearby these fast-charge stations.

How timely!

It's not that 30 minutes is too long, it's just that I worry about a mandatory 30 minute stop at an inconvenient time. But I haven't done my homework on this, so it seems totally plausible that my concerns on this are unfounded. I will say, perhaps most importantly, that I don't have a great handle on where exactly these charging stations are located. Like, are there charging locations at highway rest stops? That would be the ideal.

So how much does it cost to use the charging stations (I know Tesla's are free)? None of the articles ever seem to include that. Is it just standard electric rates?

El Guapo wrote:It's not that 30 minutes is too long, it's just that I worry about a mandatory 30 minute stop at an inconvenient time. But I haven't done my homework on this, so it seems totally plausible that my concerns on this are unfounded. I will say, perhaps most importantly, that I don't have a great handle on where exactly these charging stations are located. Like, are there charging locations at highway rest stops? That would be the ideal.

My read is that the true fast-charge stations (also called level 3) are pretty spotty right now outside of Tesla-only Superchargers and certain build-outs like the one linked above. Most public chargers are level 2, which charge at around 25 miles per hour. Definitely not road trip stops. It does seem like the L3 chargers are largely placed near major highways and within walking distance to restaurants or shopping. That's certainly been Tesla's M.O.

But it's also true that other than Tesla, we're only now starting to see vehicles sold which can really use the fast-charge stations effectively on road trips. I think that in the next 12-24 months the number of L3 stations will skyrocket if the Bolt, et al sell well.

stessier wrote:So how much does it cost to use the charging stations (I know Tesla's are free)? None of the articles ever seem to include that. Is it just standard electric rates?

Depends. I've only got a PHEV (and have only had it for 2 months), so I've only used a handful of stations myself. They've ranged from free to $1/hour. New Leafs get free charging on certain networks that would ordinarily cost, and I think GM is planning something similar for the Bolt.

I have read of some that charge less attractive rates, something like $0.50/kWh, which would put a full 200-mile charge at around $30. Haven't run into any of those myself yet. So far most of my experience has been with ChargePoint, which has had reasonable or free rates as I mentioned above. More info on their fast-charging network here.

Also, Tesla Supercharging to this point has been 'free' (meaning 'part of the cost of the vehicle'), but the rumor is that for Model 3 they'll decouple it from the cost of the car.

I'll probably check out the Bolt when it hits the showrooms later this year. I'm curious if I'll be comfortable in it as I'm over 6ft. I read in Car & Driver that it handles really well and is quite nice to drive. I may lease one for a few years while I wait for the Tesla 3 to arrive providing I could get my hands on one next spring.

CNET Roadshow video of a 240-mile trip in a Bolt.

I alternately like the video for the information and hate the video for his YouTube voice. Good that was grating.

How Did GM Create Tesla's Dream Car First?

Pretty positive review of the Bolt.

Doing some preliminary digging though, I'm not sure I'm seeing a huge advantage to getting an EV rather than a PHEV.

Aside from the lack of an engine to have issues, improved torque and reduced emissions?

So to start I don't really know what torque is, besides something that you want your car to do better.

The "fewer things to go wrong" has some appeal but it's hard to assess how much of a difference that would make over the long term maintenance wise.

Torque in an EV = 100% of maximum go power immediately. You'll get this to some extent with a PHEV, as well, but a full EV will have a stronger motor and bigger pack, so more go juice. Just makes for a fun drive. And carrying around a giant engine when the goal is to not use it 95% of the time...

Of course, I have a PHEV so I may ring hollow. But had there been an EV suitable for our needs when we got this, we'd have gone full EV.

I'm still on pace to get either the Volt or Bolt by the end of the year (trying to time it as close to the end as possible to get the Federal tax break as near as to when I get my return as possible). I originally was sure I'd be getting the Volt, but have fallen in love with the concept of the Bolt. I still haven't test driven it, so things may still change.

But - I need help convincing my wife that full EV is possible in today's world. Whatever I get, we will still have a Town & Country as our second car. My current car is a Honda Civic Hybrid and in 15 years of ownership, I think I've driven it on day trips less than 20 times. In the last 5 years, I've never had to drive it more than 100 miles one way - which is why the Bolt is so appealing. With a 238 mile range, I could go someplace and back with range to spare. My wife is terrified of the concept though. I need a strategy to convince her.

I'm thinking of pulling up PlugShare and showing the possibilities. Also mentioning how I would be getting a plug converter to be able to run off any outlet we find. Any other suggestions/strategies?

stessier wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:53 pm I'm still on pace to get either the Volt or Bolt by the end of the year (trying to time it as close to the end as possible to get the Federal tax break as near as to when I get my return as possible).

Keep in mind that there's no need to do this--you can submit a new W-4 whenever you want to lower your withholding accordingly such that your paychecks rise right away. Can even do it before you buy the car if you're sure you'll be doing it this year. As long as your ultimate 2018 withholding is in line with your 2018 taxes owed, the IRS doesn't care. Don't give the IRS an interest-free loan!

I originally was sure I'd be getting the Volt, but have fallen in love with the concept of the Bolt. I still haven't test driven it, so things may still change.

PHEVs are stopgaps. If the Bolt meets your need, get it, not the Volt. And I say this as someone who owns a PHEV. Their era is quickly ending.

But - I need help convincing my wife that full EV is possible in today's world. Whatever I get, we will still have a Town & Country as our second car. My current car is a Honda Civic Hybrid and in 15 years of ownership, I think I've driven it on day trips less than 20 times. In the last 5 years, I've never had to drive it more than 100 miles one way - which is why the Bolt is so appealing. With a 238 mile range, I could go someplace and back with range to spare. My wife is terrified of the concept though. I need a strategy to convince her.

I think you're generally on the right track. If the plan is to take the T&C on your road trips, that's half the battle right there. If once or twice in your ownership of the Bolt you need to rent a car to use for a long trip, you'll still come out well ahead in fuel savings, not to mention maintenance.

The only tip I'd mention is to avoid relying on the 238 mile range. That's EPA estimate, and maywill vary widely. In ideal conditions you'll easily top 250, and in terrible conditions (think sub-20 degrees F, snow, heat blasting, car full to the brim, etc) you'll be lucky to hit 175.

I'm thinking of pulling up PlugShare and showing the possibilities. Also mentioning how I would be getting a plug converter to be able to run off any outlet we find. Any other suggestions/strategies?

You can do this, but be realistic. On long trips, a J1772 (by far the most prevalent public charger that does not require a Tesla) ain't gonna cut it unless it's for an overnight or all-day charge. They generally charge at 6.6 kW, which will fill a Bolt in something like 10 hours. You'd have to focus on CCS quick-chargers which are far less prevalent, and while Chevy touts 'about 90 miles added in about 30 minutes', that only holds for the low end of the charge--to go from, say, 30 miles to 230 would take 90-120 minutes by my estimation.

In other words, when I talked to my wife about the Leaf, I largely focused on how we don't need it for long trips, not how we could have a somewhat-doable-but-way-more-painful-than-gasoline way to road trip. Currently for full EV road-tripping beyond around 1.5x of the car's range, it's Tesla or bust, IMO. If you've got a 275-mile one-way trip to see in-laws or something, that's another story so long as there's a CCS station somewhere on your route, as that's not going to add a ton of time to your trip. Anything much more than that and it's a losing proposition, IMO.

If it's true that you've never gone more than 100 miles one-way in your current car, you might also consider the new Leaf. It's a bit cheaper than the Bolt, and EPA range is far less at 150 miles, but if my market is any indication the dealers are already dealing--Boulder Nissan has their whole fleet of new Leafs advertised at $5k off sticker before you even enter the dealership.

I'm not trying to steer you toward one or the other, but if I wasn't getting close to buying a Model 3, I'd heavily consider the new Leaf if I could save a few $k on it, with the intention of maybe not keeping it as long as I'd keep the Bolt, then tossing it in favor of a new EV in a few years when cost is down and availability/typical range are up.

Good luck!

stessier wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:53 pm I'm still on pace to get either the Volt or Bolt by the end of the year (trying to time it as close to the end as possible to get the Federal tax break as near as to when I get my return as possible). I originally was sure I'd be getting the Volt, but have fallen in love with the concept of the Bolt. I still haven't test driven it, so things may still change.

But - I need help convincing my wife that full EV is possible in today's world. Whatever I get, we will still have a Town & Country as our second car. My current car is a Honda Civic Hybrid and in 15 years of ownership, I think I've driven it on day trips less than 20 times. In the last 5 years, I've never had to drive it more than 100 miles one way - which is why the Bolt is so appealing. With a 238 mile range, I could go someplace and back with range to spare. My wife is terrified of the concept though. I need a strategy to convince her.

I'm thinking of pulling up PlugShare and showing the possibilities. Also mentioning how I would be getting a plug converter to be able to run off any outlet we find. Any other suggestions/strategies?

Isn't the fact that the Bolt would be a second car enough to satisfy the range issues? The 238 mile average range is going to be more than enough to cover daily driving around town, and you have the Town & Country to cover long trips. Is she uncertain as to whether the Bolt range would cover daily driving? If so, you might suggest that she just keep track of her daily driving mileage - presumably she won't get too close to the Bolt range, and hopefully that would convince her.

Also, have you looked up tax incentives to getting a charger installed at your house / garage? I found some when I was looking at EVs (though, since it would have been our only car, I ultimately didn't bite), although South Carolina is a little more hostile to pro-Green endeavors.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:50 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:53 pm I'm still on pace to get either the Volt or Bolt by the end of the year (trying to time it as close to the end as possible to get the Federal tax break as near as to when I get my return as possible).

Keep in mind that there's no need to do this--you can submit a new W-4 whenever you want to lower your withholding accordingly such that your paychecks rise right away. Can even do it before you buy the car if you're sure you'll be doing it this year. As long as your ultimate 2018 withholding is in line with your 2018 taxes owed, the IRS doesn't care. Don't give the IRS an interest-free loan!

I originally was sure I'd be getting the Volt, but have fallen in love with the concept of the Bolt. I still haven't test driven it, so things may still change.

PHEVs are stopgaps. If the Bolt meets your need, get it, not the Volt. And I say this as someone who owns a PHEV. Their era is quickly ending.

I agree with this. My wife, not so much (particularly on how soon the PHEV era is ending).

The only tip I'd mention is to avoid relying on the 238 mile range. That's EPA estimate, and maywill vary widely. In ideal conditions you'll easily top 250, and in terrible conditions (think sub-20 degrees F, snow, heat blasting, car full to the brim, etc) you'll be lucky to hit 175.

Thanks, I found this in a Bolt forum as well. Seems like the owners are reporting 20% drops down to 0F and then 40-50% below that. Reasonable, but important given the possibility of moving to MN in my future. Still totally doable, though, as my average commute would be around 70 miles - and then only if I did shopping or something on the way home.

I'm thinking of pulling up PlugShare and showing the possibilities. Also mentioning how I would be getting a plug converter to be able to run off any outlet we find. Any other suggestions/strategies?

You can do this, but be realistic. On long trips, a J1772 (by far the most prevalent public charger that does not require a Tesla) ain't gonna cut it unless it's for an overnight or all-day charge. They generally charge at 6.6 kW, which will fill a Bolt in something like 10 hours. You'd have to focus on CCS quick-chargers which are far less prevalent, and while Chevy touts 'about 90 miles added in about 30 minutes', that only holds for the low end of the charge--to go from, say, 30 miles to 230 would take 90-120 minutes by my estimation.

I was largely going to pull the Plugshare info to show here there are chargers out there. I don't think we'd ever have to use them. I have 2 kids - if we're going on a trip, we're using the T&C. I don't think she is thinking about starting every morning with 238 miles of range. She's still thinking of an ICE that you drive until you need to fill up.

If it's true that you've never gone more than 100 miles one-way in your current car, you might also consider the new Leaf. It's a bit cheaper than the Bolt, and EPA range is far less at 150 miles, but if my market is any indication the dealers are already dealing--Boulder Nissan has their whole fleet of new Leafs advertised at $5k off sticker before you even enter the dealership.

The possible MN move kills that. There are two trips that would likely be common that are 140 miles round trip. I could rent a company car for that, but I would prefer to just get my own that could handle it. I also get a supplier discount on GM, so that helps a bit.

Thanks for all the ideas!

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:17 pmIsn't the fact that the Bolt would be a second car enough to satisfy the range issues? The 238 mile average range is going to be more than enough to cover daily driving around town, and you have the Town & Country to cover long trips. Is she uncertain as to whether the Bolt range would cover daily driving? If so, you might suggest that she just keep track of her daily driving mileage - presumably she won't get too close to the Bolt range, and hopefully that would convince her.

I think it's a bit of fear-of-the-unknown and not thinking about starting every day out with 230 miles of range (or whatever).

She does not particularly like our cars. The T&C is 10 years old and has broken down twice on the road (hose came lose once and radiator cracked the other time). She feels the car is doomed and doesn't trust it even though she has no real basis for it as mechanics have said it is sound. I think she wonders what will happen if the T&C dies and we're left with the Bolt for some period of time. But she hasn't thought that fully through because even doing all the school & work trips on one car ends up less than 100 miles.

Also, have you looked up tax incentives to getting a charger installed at your house / garage? I found some when I was looking at EVs (though, since it would have been our only car, I ultimately didn't bite), although South Carolina is a little more hostile to pro-Green endeavors.

I haven't! I know there is a $2000 credit for the car itself, but didn't think the charger installation might have a credit as well. I'll look into it!

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:48 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:17 pm

Also, have you looked up tax incentives to getting a charger installed at your house / garage? I found some when I was looking at EVs (though, since it would have been our only car, I ultimately didn't bite), although South Carolina is a little more hostile to pro-Green endeavors.

I haven't! I know there is a $2000 credit for the car itself, but didn't think the charger installation might have a credit as well. I'll look into it!

Or not. Looks like only Gas/Electric hybrids ever qualified for the state rebate. All electric were excluded because of the already low gas taxes (according to one lawmaker interviewed). And it appears they ended all rebates at the end of 2017.

Still looking for a charger incentive, but I'm not holding out much hope.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:43 pmI agree with this. My wife, not so much (particularly on how soon the PHEV era is ending).

She can disagree, and be wrongI mean I fully understand your situation and concur with your strategy to pursue other avenues of convincing.

Thanks, I found this in a Bolt forum as well. Seems like the owners are reporting 20% drops down to 0F and then 40-50% below that. Reasonable, but important given the possibility of moving to MN in my future. Still totally doable, though, as my average commute would be around 70 miles - and then only if I did shopping or something on the way home.

Cool. You can typically also reduce the range hit a bit by preheating the vehicle remotely before leaving for a trip when it's that cold out. If it's in your garage and plugged in, you'll leave with a warm cabin & battery and avoid that initial efficiency penalty you'd otherwise see.

I don't think she is thinking about starting every morning with 238 miles of range. She's still thinking of an ICE that you drive until you need to fill up.

Yes, this is something I had to point out to my wife, as well.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:09 pm Still looking for a charger incentive, but I'm not holding out much hope.

The federal 30% credit for EVSEs died as of 12/31/16. It was extended in the 2018 tax bill... through 2017.

Went and test drove the Bolt yesterday. The one pedal driving is very cool.

I like it. My one disappointment is that it doesn't feel like a $40k car. It's not bad - leather steering wheel, leather seats, etc - but the seats are manual and most of the trim is plastic. It doesn't really matter to me but I can see how some people would be turned off. I think I've convinced my wife (helps that we are staying in the South rather than MN) and am targeting August/September for pulling the trigger.

Awesome. Yeah, I had a similar impression. You can tell that most of the budget went to the powertrain. But the center display is fairly slick, I thought.

This purchase may have been moved up substantially. It's like the Civic knows it's days are numbered and has decided to go in a corner and die.

For the last 18 months, I've known I needed to replace the friction plates. The car stutters when it starts from a stop as they slip. The mechanics said as long as I can live with it, it's not really a big deal, so I've been putting that off. About 2 months ago, the check engine line came on and it's either the O2 sensor or the catalytic converter that needs replacing. Since it only degrades gas mileage, I decided to let it roll. Last Thursday, as I tried to start at an intersection, the car wouldn't shift out of first gear and the light started blinking on the drive indicator. I was only 0.25 miles from the house, so I made it home and went to the internet to check it out. Apparently I was supposed to count the long and short blinks as that would have told me what the issue was, but turning off and back on the car reset it and it's been fine since (knock on wood). This morning, on the way into work, the IMA (integrated motor assist) came on which likely means the battery pack needs replacing.

So rough estimates -

Frictions plates - $2000
O2/Catalytic converter - $500-1300 depending
Drive position light - ???
Hybrid battery - $1200 or $2800 (used vs new)

Car is 15 years old with 226k miles and I paide $19,750 new. Replaced the battery back at 125k miles back in 2011. It's been a good ride, but I think it's time to tell the kids I'm sending it to a quiet place in the country where it can roam some wide open space...

Having to order my preferred vehicle. They had one in the system that matched everything, but had a white interior and we hated that particular option most. So with the factory shut down for the holiday and the factory switching over for the 2019 version (even though I've heard there are no changes) they are expecting 12 weeks for delivery.

So yay, but I'm also stocking up on duct tape to keep my current ride going until then.

Good luck!

Hopefully only 11 weeks left. This is going to be painful.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:32 pm Hopefully only 11 weeks left. This is going to be painful.

Hey, we can have a race, though I think odds are in your favor. I have:

Delivery between Sep. '18 - Nov. '18

...so 8-17 weeks.

Oh man - if you win, my wife will kill me. One of the points I made was that the Bolt would be available sooner (the second was that we couldn't afford the Tesla). How was I to know they were opening the floodgates!?!

11 weeks painful. LOL. I think I hit 109 and change between the deposit for my 3 and delivery.

I only ordered my Tesla a little over 6 weeks ago, so it should be a little better for me.

Perhaps an interesting development - I was perusing my local dealer's website (as I am wont to do) and noticed they have one Bolt listed for sale and that it appears to exactly match what I ordered. I just sent an email to my salesman asking if that was my car and if not, if it matched everything I ordered if I could have that one. It will be interesting to see the response. The message boards I follow suggest that inventory shows up on local websites after production but before the car arrives so a) this could really be my car and just not have arrived yet, b) it could be someone else's order, or c) it was just a model that happens to match everything I ordered that they got in for general sale...before my order.

Considering I've had zero information since I placed the order, these are all exciting developments. I still have to order and install a charger and secure financing, so I kind of hope I have another couple of weeks, but it would be great to know there is progress!