Abortion news and discussion

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Dogstar
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Dogstar »

For anyone that's interested or feels like sharing information about how someone's phone could be used against them as we move forward from here, there was an excellent Twitter thread on the subject with suggestions and links to other articles.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1522 ... 95904.html
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Smoove_B »

It's amazing what happens when someone no longer worries about being re-elected


All hat, no cattle.
NEW: @GOP Senator Susan Collins, who earlier this week accused SCOTUS Justices Kavanaugh and Gorsuch of lying to her about their support for Roe, will NOT support Senate Democrats' bill to secure abortion protections in law.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by El Guapo »

Honestly I was expecting her to hide behind deliberations and the filibuster - e.g., "I am open to codifying Roe with the right bill, but the filibuster is essential to preserve for bipartisan deliberations so I won't vote to amend filibuster rules to pass any such bill."

Is she straight up saying no to any Roe bill?
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Defiant »

Collins and Murkowski are putting their own bill forward, IIUC. One that protects religious freedoms for providers who have objections to performing abortions.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by YellowKing »

SC has now put up high fences in addition to the barricades. Because nothing says "We are making a decision the American public agrees with" like having to hide behind barricades and fences in fear for your life.

The more I think about it, the more I realize democracy has been dead for a long time. How many things that a majority of Americans actually want do we actually have? We don't have sensible gun control. We don't have affordable health care.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Blackhawk »

To be fair, the Supreme Court isn't there to reflect the public's views or will. That's Congress. That X% of the population being in favor or against something isn't something it's their job to take into account, something I see quoted a lot. In fact, sometimes things that are legitimately unconstitutional are hugely popular, and need to be struck down or sent back to be reworked.

That isn't to say that the aren't compromised, partisan, and broken, or that their decisions are legitimate, or that they're doing they're paying attention the factors that it is their responsibility to heed. But if 80% (or whatever) of Americans support something, it's up to Congress to implement that if appropriate, not the SC.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Holman »

Defiant wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 3:54 pm Collins and Murkowski are putting their own bill forward, IIUC. One that protects religious freedoms for providers who have objections to performing abortions.
If that's what's gettable, we should take it. But I doubt there are eight more Republicans willing to go with that. (Or nine, since Manchin would probably be a No.)
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by stessier »

Is there some epidemic of people being forced to perform abortions that has somehow failed to make the news?
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Defiant »

Wow, this is bad phrasing:



(He's trying to satire the argument that women, should be the ones to decide where the line is divided when it comes to their own bodies, not men, but I don't think he intended to come out of the closet).
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Holman »

stessier wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 4:47 pm Is there some epidemic of people being forced to perform abortions that has somehow failed to make the news?
Collins' worry is that the language of the law would create a right to abortion that would require Catholic and other religiously affiliated hospitals to provide them.

It's perhaps just theater, since you can't walk into a small local hospital and expect brain surgery if you need it. You'd be sent somewhere that provides that.
Last edited by Holman on Thu May 05, 2022 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Holman »

Defiant wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 5:13 pm (He's trying to satire the argument that women, should be the ones to decide where the line is divided when it comes to their own bodies, not men, but I don't think he intended to come out of the closet).
Superb example of a misplaced modifier. I'll have to save that one for class.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Holman »

Men need to be thinking about this in personal rather than abstract terms.

I've parted friends with all of my exes and I've never had a one-night stand, so I don't believe I've ever had a partner who had an abortion. However, the condom broke the first time I slept with my now-wife (a decade before we chose to have a kid together), and she made sure to get a Morning-After pill the following day.

Under the kind of laws we can expect to be seeing (like Louisiana's "it's murder after fertilization" act), even that would be illegal.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Holman »

I'm also realizing that I know two personal friends who've had ectopic pregnancies (and, as an introvert, I don't know that many people who would have brought that up with me).
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Alefroth »

Defiant wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 3:54 pm Collins and Murkowski are putting their own bill forward, IIUC. One that protects religious freedoms for providers who have objections to performing abortions.
If only we could use religious freedom somehow to ensure the right to abortion.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Holman »

Alefroth wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 5:50 pm
Defiant wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 3:54 pm Collins and Murkowski are putting their own bill forward, IIUC. One that protects religious freedoms for providers who have objections to performing abortions.
If only we could use religious freedom somehow to ensure the right to abortion.
There has been a lot of discussion about how traditional Jewish teaching asserts a right to abortion.

Even the narrowest interpretation maintains the right in case of risk to the mother, but there are doctrines going back many centuries that assert that a fetus is not a person until birth and that the conditions of the mother's life (i.e. choice) have a bearing on carrying to term.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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Holman wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 5:48 pm I'm also realizing that I know two personal friends who've had ectopic pregnancies (and, as an introvert, I don't know that many people who would have brought that up with me).
I didn't know you knew my sister, Marie?
She had a couple of abortions for that diagnosis. It beat dying in agony.

I've known of eight women who had abortions. Half were due to the fetus having horrible defects that prevented post birth survival, and the other half were due to inability to have a newborn and shelter at the same time, although one girl would not have lost her home. She was fourteen, though.
In all of these circumstances, I understand the womens' reasons and fully support them. It was easy to see how forcing them to carry the baby to term would end up wrecking their lives from end to end. It only took a bit of empathy and the number of brain cells that God gave a caterpillar to understand why.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by hepcat »

Wait, Matt Gaetz doesn’t want you to forget he’s an awful goddamn sack of shit amidst all this hoopla!

Covfefe!
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Zaxxon »

Does... does he know what causes the need for an abortion?
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Holman »

Default wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:22 pm
Holman wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 5:48 pm I'm also realizing that I know two personal friends who've had ectopic pregnancies (and, as an introvert, I don't know that many people who would have brought that up with me).
I didn't know you knew my sister, Marie?
She had a couple of abortions for that diagnosis. It beat dying in agony.

I've known of eight women who had abortions. Half were due to the fetus having horrible defects that prevented post birth survival, and the other half were due to inability to have a newborn and shelter at the same time, although one girl would not have lost her home. She was fourteen, though.
In all of these circumstances, I understand the womens' reasons and fully support them. It was easy to see how forcing them to carry the baby to term would end up wrecking their lives from end to end. It only took a bit of empathy and the number of brain cells that God gave a caterpillar to understand why.
Yeah. The stats are that very nearly 1/4 of American women have had an abortion.

Taking that right away and putting that many people at risk is quite a Holy Grail for the Conservative movement.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Holman »

It's worth reminding American men that court-mandated child support generally starts at 25% of annual income.

Let's get that one higher with more aggressive legislation.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Freyland »

Holman wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 5:48 pm I'm also realizing that I know two personal friends who've had ectopic pregnancies (and, as an introvert, I don't know that many people who would have brought that up with me).
They didn't have abortions. They had removal of inflamed fallopian tubes. 👍
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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Alefroth wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 5:50 pm
Defiant wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 3:54 pm Collins and Murkowski are putting their own bill forward, IIUC. One that protects religious freedoms for providers who have objections to performing abortions.
If only we could use religious freedom somehow to ensure the right to abortion.
Well, Judaism requires abortion if the life of the mother is at risk.

(That wouldn't be pro-choice in that scenario, though)
Last edited by Defiant on Thu May 05, 2022 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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hepcat wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:29 pm Wait, Matt Gaetz doesn’t want you to forget he’s an awful goddamn sack of shit amidst all this hoopla!

The best followup I heard to this is that this is Matt Gaetz - for him, over educated means having a high school diploma.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Smoove_B »

Holman wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:37 pm Taking that right away and putting that many people at risk is quite a Holy Grail for the Conservative movement.
I wanted to preface this with saying that I swear not everything is connected to public health, but...

When you look at maternal and infant death data for the United States and compare us with comparable nations around the globe, we are terrible. In 2018 we were ranked 33 out of 36 comparable nations for infant mortality. I want to say maternal mortality was something like 47th out of 50, but things are hazy right now. We're certainly not Top 10, not even Top 25. And it's so much worse when you look at state-level data. We're an absolute mess, so maybe it's not that much of a surprise that there are some looking to make it even worse?
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:00 pm
Holman wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:37 pm Taking that right away and putting that many people at risk is quite a Holy Grail for the Conservative movement.
I wanted to preface this with saying that I swear not everything is connected to public health, but...

When you look at maternal and infant death data for the United States and compare us with comparable nations around the globe, we are terrible. In 2018 we were ranked 33 out of 36 comparable nations for infant mortality. I want to say maternal mortality was something like 47th out of 50, but things are hazy right now. We're certainly not Top 10, not even Top 25. And it's so much worse when you look at state-level data. We're an absolute mess, so maybe it's not that much of a surprise that there are some looking to make it even worse?
You don't think it's working as intended? And that this isn't furtherance of the strategy?

2018, infant mortality rates by race and ethnicity were as follows:

Non-Hispanic black: 10.8
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander: 9.4
American Indian/Alaska Native: 8.2
Hispanic: 4.9
Non-Hispanic white: 4.6
Asian: 3.6
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Smoove_B »

Oh yeah, absolutely.

It just seems like maybe if there was genuine, authentic concern over precious, beautiful babies the GOP would be doing everything they could to invest money in improving maternal and infant health outcomes right now. Better health care. Better prenatal care. Better postpartum support.

When you look at infant mortality in the US, we're on par with other nations in terms of making sure babies are delivered and survive. However after that first month things start to ratchet up and when you look at 6+ months out comparing rates of infant mortality in the United States to other nations, that's where everything falls apart.

I know it's cliche that to say the the GOP cares about the child right up until birth, but it's kinda true. What I don't understand is how no one can seem to get them to address the data and justify their over their alleged over the top-support of infants when their lack of policy and financial support for kids after they are born is an embarrassment. I guess because money and aid would be going to the poors and non-whites? Like...it's just right there, out in the open and no one is pressing them on it.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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Blackhawk wrote:To be fair, the Supreme Court isn't there to reflect the public's views or will. That's Congress. That X% of the population being in favor or against something isn't something it's their job to take into account, something I see quoted a lot.
Yeah, I know. It doesn't change the fact that they're now unabashedly partisan towards a party that leads by minority rule.
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It’s because the GOP has degenerated to special interest talking points, not policy. There is no driving conservative principle but power to reward your allies and punish enemies.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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Alefroth wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 5:50 pm
Defiant wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 3:54 pm Collins and Murkowski are putting their own bill forward, IIUC. One that protects religious freedoms for providers who have objections to performing abortions.
If only we could use religious freedom somehow to ensure the right to abortion.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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coopasonic wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 11:54 am
Alefroth wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 5:50 pm
Defiant wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 3:54 pm Collins and Murkowski are putting their own bill forward, IIUC. One that protects religious freedoms for providers who have objections to performing abortions.
If only we could use religious freedom somehow to ensure the right to abortion.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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Image
He/Him/His/Porcupine
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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stimpy wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 10:40 pm Image
Love it. That's perfect.
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Abortion news and discussion

Post by Dogstar »

Referencing a CDC report, sure, but that’s the type of language that probably shouldn’t find itself in any kind of judicial decision, even as a reference.






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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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How thoughtful of them to consider the supply chain problem with regard to infants. :ninja:
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Blackhawk »

We have a domestic supply of adoptable children. A surplus, in fact, thanks to the Common Orphan Vital Increase Develpment program (COVID, for short.)
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Holman »

How do they plan to prosecute laws banning travel to another state for an abortion?

I assume they won't pregnancy-test at the border, but if there are Texas-style "bounties" for informants, we'll still be in Atwood's Underground Femaleroad territory.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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It’s probably requires a subscription to the WaPo (which I happily have) but this article breaks down very nicely the differences in such things as paid family leave, income for women, health insurance in states that have “trigger” laws that will outlaw abortion if Roe falls or pre-Roe laws that can be enforceable again vs states where abortion will remain legal. The differences, highlighted by nice color coded maps are striking and let’s just say there are certain states that value life after a baby is born more than others…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/parentin ... -abortion/

Some choice quotes:
The United States in general ranks poorly on a number of measures related to maternal support and outcomes, and a state-by-state breakdown offers a look at the varied experience of having and raising a child in this country. While child care tends to be more affordable in states with trigger laws, the rates of uninsured women and maternal deaths are among the highest in the country; no state with a trigger law or pre-Roe ban has legislation in place to guarantee paid leave, which helps women recover from giving birth without losing income.
Paid family leave has been a fraught battle for over a century in the United States, one of the few countries in the world that does not offer paid maternity leave. The Family Medical Leave Act (FMLA), passed by Congress in 1993, guarantees 12 weeks of unpaid leave within one year, but it only applies to companies with 50 or more employees, and only to employees who have been with the company for a full year.

Ten states and Washington, D.C., have expanded on FMLA to provide some sort of paid leave. Massachusetts offers 12 weeks of paid leave, while California and D.C. offer eight. Other states provide nothing other than FMLA.

In states where abortion rights are likely to be rescinded, women earn lower salaries than women in other states.

Women in Idaho and Mississippi earn the lowest median salary, about $24,000. Next are West Virginia, Utah, New Mexico, Montana and Alabama, where women make about $25,000 on average.

Health insurance is an important factor in the ability to access prenatal, maternity and pediatric care; lack of insurance is linked to numerous negative outcomes for both mother and child.

Most states with trigger laws contain a high percentage of women who do not have private or public health insurance. Meanwhile, childbirth costs vary by area, but are typically more than $10,000 for a vaginal delivery. As of 2021, 26.3 percent of women ages 19 to 44 in Texas had no insurance coverage.
And the article ends on this note:
The maternal death rate in states with abortion bans or trigger is 42 percent higher than in states with wider access.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Holman »

I'm imagining ways to subvert Red State abortion restrictions.

If I run a university in a Red State, I create a system where students can enroll in short-term (even mid-semester) study-away programs in states or countries where partner universities facilitate medical care. Class time lost by travel may be made up in future semesters with no penalties.

If I run a Red State based corporation, I do something similar with short-term internships in free Blue States.

Of course the losers here are still the poorly educated, poorly resourced Red State denizens without access to such assistance. But of course the cruelty and control exerted against them are the point of these laws.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

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Amend my post just above as Study Abroad.
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