Vaping news....old considering vaping thread.

[Isgrimnur]

CNN

Marlboro owner Altria's big gamble on vaping is not panning out as well as hoped. The cigarette giant announced Thursday it was taking a $4.5 billion writedown on its investment in Juul.

Altria (MO) invested $12.8 billion for a 35% stake in Juul in 2018. The deal quickly went south as concerns mounted about the health risks of vaping and US regulators pushed for a crackdown on e-cigarettes. Juul was also criticized for selling pods with flavors like mango, creme and cucumber that became popular with teens.

Juul CEO Kevin Burns stepped down last month and was replaced by Altria executive K.C. Crosthwaite. Since then, Juul said that it will end the sale of its flavored products in the US. And the company announced another management shakeup earlier this week.

The problems at Juul have taken a toll on Altria. The stock is down more than 5% this year and the company abandoned talks about a possible reunification with Philip Morris (PM), which sells Marlboro and other cigarettes internationally, last month. Altria had spun off Philip Morris in 2008.

[Smoove_B]

Latest update from the CDC:

Recent CDC laboratory testing of bronchoalveolar lavage (BAL) fluid samples (or samples of fluid collected from the lungs) from 29 patients with EVALI submitted to CDC from 10 states found vitamin E acetate in all of the BAL fluid samples. Vitamin E acetate is used as an additive in the production of e-cigarette, or vaping, products. This is the first time that we have detected a potential chemical of concern in biologic samples from patients with these lung injuries.

CDC continues to recommend that people should not use e-cigarette, or vaping, products that contain THC, particularly from informal sources like friends, or family, or in-person or online dealers. We will continue to provide updates as more data become available.

Of note:

No one compound or ingredient has emerged as the cause of these illnesses to date; and it may be that there is more than one cause of this outbreak. Many different substances and product sources are still under investigation.
While it appears that vitamin E acetate is associated with EVALI, evidence is not yet sufficient to rule out contribution of other chemicals of concern to EVALI.

[LawBeefaroni]

I will say this about to tobacco. While it's not safe, the fact that humans have been using it for thousands of years means that it does not contain deadly toxins at normal dosages. And a lot of the harm it does was not as big an issue when life expectancies were in the 3 and 4 decade range. Now? Yeah we know it's bad but it never killed people in a year or two.

With vaping compounds we are in literally the very first instant of usage. And making matters worse, it's not a single plant or type of plants. It's random chemical concoctions that are pretty much unregulated. Best not to be a guinea pig. And we really need regulation and open recipes.

[Daehawk]

Again, inhaling aerosoled oils does not sound great. Water I could see as ok in small quantities. Dont want pneumonia.

[morlac]

I will say this about to tobacco. While it's not safe, the fact that humans have been using it for thousands of years means that it does not contain deadly toxins at normal dosages. And a lot of the harm it does was not as big an issue when life expectancies were in the 3 and 4 decade range. Now? Yeah we know it's bad but it never killed people in a year or two.

With vaping compounds we are in literally the very first instant of usage. And making matters worse, it's not a single plant or type of plants. It's random chemical concoctions that are pretty much unregulated. Best not to be a guinea pig. And we really need regulation and open recipes.

And legalization because it is the black market pot vapes killing people.

[Isgrimnur]

Detroit

The surgeon who transplanted two lungs into a teenage boy who was going to die from vaping used the word "evil."

Another doctor at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit on Tuesday afternoon openly begged anyone who vapes to stop.

Dr. Hassan Nemeh, the surgical director of Thoracic Organ Transplant, said the inflammation and scarring in the 17-year-old's lungs were "nothing that I have ever seen" across 20 years of similar surgeries.
...
Information about the anonymous patient was limited. He tu[r]ned 17 in the hospital. He's an athlete, a sailor, a typical young man who likes goofing around with his friends and playing video games.
...
He was admitted to Ascension St. John Hospital on Detroit's east side on Sept. 5, suffering from what appeared to be pneumonia. Struggling to breathe, he was intubated a week later, then transferred to Children's Hospital of Michigan on Sept. 17 and hooked up to a long-term heart-lung machine known as an ECMO device.

Children's Hospital reached out to Henry Ford's transplant department on Oct. 3. With Henry Ford's specialized transport team busy elsewhere, Nemeh and Yeldo loaded a portable ECMO machine into the back of Nemeh's SUV, drove it to Children's, attached it and had the boy loaded into an ambulance.

By Oct. 8, he was on the national organ transplant waiting list. By Oct. 15, with ECMO losing effect and only days to live, he'd shot to the top, and he was undergoing six hours of surgery.

[Daehawk]

And yet thousands vape everyday. I see streamer on Twitch all the time vaping and they've been doing it years. Not a single cough. Strange stuff.

[Smoove_B]

I said it earlier. People that are vaping are part of a 10+ study that's currently unfolding. We might just start to learn about what happens to people that regularly vape for a decade (or longer) in the next few years.

On top of that, we have another group of individuals that are part of a smaller study, apparently linked to the use of (or exposure to) a specific chemical while vaping. This exposure seemingly causes very specific lung problems to develop rapidly.

By all accounts, the general vaping that's been going on for the last 10+ years *appears* to be a healthier alternative to traditional smoking, but to say it's harmless? Nope.

[Drazzil]

I said it earlier. People that are vaping are part of a 10+ study that's currently unfolding. We might just start to learn about what happens to people that regularly vape for a decade (or longer) in the next few years.

On top of that, we have another group of individuals that are part of a smaller study, apparently linked to the use of (or exposure to) a specific chemical while vaping. This exposure seemingly causes very specific lung problems to develop rapidly.

By all accounts, the general vaping that's been going on for the last 10+ years *appears* to be a healthier alternative to traditional smoking, but to say it's harmless? Nope.

If this was a thing 30 years ago it would have been banned. Now we can't ban it. Not without making things more unsafe.

[McNutt]

Holy crap! Critical lung damage by 17?

[Isgrimnur]

*16.99

[Daehawk]

Ya and this is just the start of his health problems. He has a lifetime of troubles ahead of him. And a shorter life at that. Rejection fears, medications, cancer due to immune suppression...you name it.

[Isgrimnur]

The National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute reports survival rates of nearly 80% after one year and more than 50% after five years, with slightly more success for double lung transplant patients: a median survival rate of 6.6 years, compared to 4.6 years for single lung recipients.

Pulmonologist Lisa Allenspach, who directs Henry Ford's lung transplant program, said that given his youth and improvements in the transplant process, he could far outlive the norm. He is breathing on his own, and scheduled to be transferred soon to a rehabilitation facility.

[Daehawk]

He seems to have gotten lungs really fast. Not to knock him ..I mean everyone should get a life...but he did this to himself and there must be others who were on these lists like cystic fibrosis patients longer than him. Maybe it was jus ta match that was meant to be .

[Isgrimnur]

[Daehawk]

Why isn't immune system compatibility listed for lungs?

Anyways always thought its a shame all organs cant simply work in everyone.

[Isgrimnur]

‾\_(ツ)_/‾

Mayo Clinic

Even with the best possible match between you and the donor, your immune system will try to attack and reject your new lung or lungs. The risk of rejection is highest soon after the lung transplant and is reduced over time.

[noxiousdog]

National Institute of health: "An estimated 88,000 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women) die from alcohol-related causes annually, making alcohol the third leading preventable cause of death in the United States. "

As far as health goes, vaping is better than a lot of things.

[Isgrimnur]

Are we sure about that?

[McNutt]

As far as health goes, vaping is better than a lot of things.

I think the jury is still out on that, unless you're talking about Krokodil or walking into lion exhibits. If my kids took up vaping I would freak the hell out. They're not dumb enough to do the first two things, but vaping seems to be sneaking in because it's being misrepresented as safe.

[Daehawk]

I thought you misspelled crocodile and had to look it up. Ew

[noxiousdog]

Are we sure about that?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Your chart shows alcohol 3rd at 88,000 per year.....

[Isgrimnur]

And Tobacco Smoking is that radioactive green line. Vaping is replacing that, and has not been studied as a healthy replacement.

[noxiousdog]

As far as health goes, vaping is better than a lot of things.

I think the jury is still out on that, unless you're talking about Krokodil or walking into lion exhibits. If my kids took up vaping I would freak the hell out. They're not dumb enough to do the first two things, but vaping seems to be sneaking in because it's being misrepresented as safe.

This is only true in the scaremongering areas. An estimated 9,000,000 people vape. A few hundred have been hospitalized. The deaths are nearly all linked to being stupid and buying black market goods.

3,000 people die from food poisoning per year and there's 128,000 hospitalizations.

But sure. Vaping is super dangerous.

Let me know when we get up to water level (3000 accidental drownings per year) of dangerous.

[noxiousdog]

And Tobacco Smoking is that radioactive green line. Vaping is replacing that, and has not been studied as a healthy replacement.

Yes, yes it has.

According to Siegel, the strongest evidence that vaping is safer than smoking is a set of clinical studies showing that when smokers switch from smoking to vaping, they experience "both subjective and objective improvement in their lung function."

Other experts pointed to research from the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine. In a 2018 meta-analysis that looked at more than 800 peer-reviewed scientific studies, the authors wrote that lab tests and human studies "suggest that e-cigarettes are likely to be far less harmful than combustible tobacco cigarettes." While vaping exposes users to some toxicants, they wrote, vapor has "fewer numbers and lower levels of most toxicants" than cigarette smoke.

British health authorities have taken a dramatically different approach to e-cigarettes than the United States. The British government encourages vaping for smokers who have otherwise been unable to quit, claiming that vaping is no more than 5% as dangerous as smoking.

[McNutt]

But sure. Vaping is super dangerous.

I'm not saying it is, but I'm very concerned that the long-term effects of vaping will show that it was super dangerous. We've had generations of data to show how and why other nicotine delivery methods are dangerous.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, again there is general confusion. Vaping (as currently practiced) has been widely commercially available for about a decade. Early studies suggest that it is indeed a likely safer option than smoking, however that doesn't mean it's harmless in the long run. We have absolutely no idea what it means to vape for 20+ years because no one has done it. With cigarette use, they are the gold standard for attributable risk. I don't think stronger correlation data has ever been generated than what was seen for cigarette use and the development of lung cancer.

I'd say we're at least another decade out before we can truly start to say whether or not vaping is a healthier alternative to cigarette use.

The latest issue with the chemical additives is a complete side-bar. It's great information and it's something that should be studied, but it is wholly unrelated to the 25+ year unofficial study that's currently going on with people that vape. And even then, there are going to be so many confounding issues to untangle. Were they smokers first before vaping? Did they only vape? Did their job involve any potential exposure to risk factors? Did they only vape custom blends or manufacturer-produced? Presenting vaping as a healthy alternative is disingenuous. Comparing chronic illness with likely latency period of 20+ years to short-term foodborne illness is equally so.

[noxiousdog]

But sure. Vaping is super dangerous.

I'm not saying it is, but I'm very concerned that the long-term effects of vaping will show that it was super dangerous. We've had generations of data to show how and why other nicotine delivery methods are dangerous.

We've had generations of data to show how and why cigarettes and smokeless tobacco is dangerous. Nicotine is "not cancer-causing or excessively harmful on its own".

I'm not saying there isn't risk, but it needs to be in context. For example, nearly all health organizations have guidelines limiting the amount of red meat you should eat and avoid processed meats completely.

While I'm sure there's a few folks here doing that, I'm guessing that most are not. The evidence against red and processed meats is much more conclusive to be harmful than vaping.

Which also isn't to say you can't have risk. People should make their own choices, but relative risk is pretty important.

[Isgrimnur]

People should make their own choices

People should be able to make informed choices, but when those in power and those with an interest have made it a thing to hide, obfuscate, and outright lie about what the correct information actually is, it's not possible.

[noxiousdog]

People should make their own choices

People should be able to make informed choices, but when those in power and those with an interest have made it a thing to hide, obfuscate, and outright lie about what the correct information actually is, it's not possible.

Oh, like saying vaping hasn't been studied as a healthy replacement?

[Isgrimnur]

Chalk that one up to ignorance rather than malfeasance.

[LawBeefaroni]

"Vaping is safer than the number one leading cause of preventable death!"

I don't see that as a ringing endorsement.

[noxiousdog]

"Vaping is safer than the number one leading cause of preventable death!"

I don't see that as a ringing endorsement.

If only we had numbers of people that vape and hospitalizations over the last decade.....

[Daehawk]

Everything is bad for you. Heck just breathing the normal polluted air of Earth will kill you these days.

[dbt1949]

How many kid vaping is there compared to adults?

[LawBeefaroni]

"Vaping is safer than the number one leading cause of preventable death!"

I don't see that as a ringing endorsement.

If only we had numbers of people that vape and hospitalizations over the last decade.....

Compared to what? Smokers over their first 10 years of smoking? Smoking rarely sends people to the hospital in the first 10 years. Vaping may actually have a worse rate.

[Smoove_B]

How many kid vaping is there compared to adults?

The most current data suggests that smoking rates (all ages) is down to an all-time low. However, vaping is at a concerning level for teens.

It's almost like...we've finally managed to adequately communicate the risks for smoking. But then at some point, people (teens in particular) were given the message that vaping was totes safe. Except:

But even before the appearance of the mystery illness, researchers have been finding that vaping — while less dangerous than smoking — certainly isn’t risk-free. Though it’s long-term health effects remain unknown, it’s already been tied to seizures, an increased risk in wheezing, and potential cardiovascular toxicity.

[noxiousdog]

"Vaping is safer than the number one leading cause of preventable death!"

I don't see that as a ringing endorsement.

If only we had numbers of people that vape and hospitalizations over the last decade.....

Compared to what? Smokers over their first 10 years of smoking? Smoking rarely sends people to the hospital in the first 10 years. Vaping may actually have a worse rate.

Compared to food poisoning or accidental drowning or eating red meat or any other myriad of non-risk free behaviors that we all pick and choose.

[Isgrimnur]

There's no such thing as secondhand drowning or meat-eating.

[noxiousdog]

How many kid vaping is there compared to adults?

The most current data suggests that smoking rates (all ages) is down to an all-time low. However, vaping is at a concerning level for teens.

It's almost like...we've finally managed to adequately communicate the risks for smoking. But then at some point, people (teens in particular) were given the message that vaping was totes safe. Except:

But even before the appearance of the mystery illness, researchers have been finding that vaping — while less dangerous than smoking — certainly isn’t risk-free. Though it’s long-term health effects remain unknown, it’s already been tied to seizures, an increased risk in wheezing, and potential cardiovascular toxicity.

Context:

Over the past decade, there have been at least 35 reports of seizures — sudden and uncontrolled disturbances in the brain — following e-cigarette use.