[TV] Wheel of Time series

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:04 pm

I rewatched the first two episodes with my wife last night, who is not familiar with the source material. She really loved the whole concept of the Aes Sedai, and caught on quickly to the Dragon Reborn plot. However, I had to convince her that Nynaeve was not a minor throwaway character that would be forgotten after the first episode.

She really loves that I read all the books, because she's able to ask (non-spoiler) questions about the world and characters to help her better understand different scenes.

Also upon the rewatch, I'm REALLY loving Rosamund Pike's portrayal of Moiraine. I find her riveting in every scene. I read that she permanently moved her family to Prague to work on the show, which is a pretty good indication of her dedication to the role.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:28 pm

Did she catch on to the fact that naming someone the Dragon Reborn is literally the worst thing you can name someone?

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:59 pm

Since she only narrowed it down to four she did a blanket mark of death.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:41 pm

I think the thing that throws me off more than anything is the pronunciations. They pronounce *everything* differently than I do (and I'm not exactly a neophyte at fantasy pronunciations.)

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:49 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:41 pm I think the thing that throws me off more than anything is the pronunciations. They pronounce *everything* differently than I do (and I'm not exactly a neophyte at fantasy pronunciations.)

I didn't actually imagine the characters in the book having a British accent. It's...really throwing me off.

disarm · Post by **disarm** » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:35 pm

Blackhawk wrote:I think the thing that throws me off more than anything is the pronunciations. They pronounce *everything* differently than I do (and I'm not exactly a neophyte at fantasy pronunciations.)

The books have a glossary that includes pronunciations for all the names though. I haven't had time to watch yet, but I'm guessing the show is correct...

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:55 pm

Then I'm sure I developed my pronunciations from the books. The ones that stood out to me (Moiraine, Shadar Logoth) I checked against the pronunciation guides. I had them right (mwah-RAIN, LOH-goth) while the show did not (mor-rain, log-əth.)

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:39 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:55 pm Then I'm sure I developed my pronunciations from the books. The ones that stood out to me (Moiraine, Shadar Logoth) I checked against the pronunciation guides. I had them right (mwah-RAIN, LOH-goth) while the show did not (mor-rain, log-əth.)

This kind of inattention to detail annoys me. In a 7-book Kevin Anderson series, the reader of the first six books pronounced a robot, I/O, as Eye Oh. The reader of the last combined them together and is was "eeoh." Bugged the shit out of me. It was also a problem that turned me off of Librivox; a lot of the books were by non-native English speakers...I give them an A for effort, but often a failing grade on a the project as I can't listen to common words being consistently mispronounced.

I only read the first book of the series and wasn't impressed, so I might find the series a little more to my liking (but I didn't care for the Magician's" books either, and didn't care for the show they made of it either...too many unlikeable characters). My main problem with it is exactly what Blackhawk referred to in the books thread...it seemed like Jordan was doing a narrative of a D&D adventure (except without specific IP). Given the love here, I can only assume they get better as the world develops, but that first book did not hook me at all. If the TV show does, I might take a crack at the second book.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:51 am

I'm not sure they do. Jordon has the distinction of kicking off the trend of writing a huge, sprawling, complex fantasy epic with a serious tone. A lot of other authors have since taken up the model (Martin and Erikson come to mind.) I've only read the first half or so of the series, and that was years ago (I got tired of rereading for new releases to keep track and decided to wait for it to be finished), but I understand they really plodded in the middle, and that Jordan ended up with so many characters and plot threads that he couldn't keep up with them all.

I'll absolutely defer that view to anyone who's read them more recently (and read more of them.)

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:03 am

Well, Martin was good. As I read him as a full-formed adult with some literary creds, I'm pretty sure if I did re-read him, it would still be good. But I read (listened to the audiobook production) of Jordan's first novel about 2 years ago and found no reason to be impressed. And there's the constant reminders that mid-series it gets worse. Much worse. Now, I generally have a tolerance for slow-developing series...because I do enjoy epic stories. That Anderson series I mentioned I was confused at best after the first book...so much so I kind of want to read it again to see if it made more sense after reading the whole 7 book series.

I think with Jordan it wasn't just the whole "D&D adventure" vibe its that when I was running D&D adventures, mine probably told a more interesting story.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:57 am

Having read the entire series twice and the early books maybe five to six times, the common criticisms are somewhat overblown.

Could the books be improved with a better editor? Certainly. But it’s not like it’s going to take your brain any time to start mentally deleting the crutches as you go.

The first six books are outstanding (4/5/6 > 1/2/3). For some, there’s a lull for a bit there, but they can be fast reads so I never noticed. The last three are definitely worth it.

That said, I wasn’t an old man when I started reading them. Maybe I would hate them if I tried to start today? But I didn’t, I started reading in the early 90s as a late teen.

I’m not someone that needs every syllable of every word to contribute to the plot. For me, when I read books like the WoT, I feel like I’m looking through a window to complex world with many things happening. Sometimes those things aren’t in direct service to the plot. I’m fine with that.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:25 am

The first book is very Tolkien-derivative, but as the series goes on it really fleshes out into one of the best fantasy worlds in literature. I've read a LOT of fantasy, and I rank the Wheel of Time as my third favorite series behind Lord of the Rings and Song of Ice and Fire. I agree with RunningMn9 re: the common criticisms. As much as I love to rag on the braid-tugging and Jordan's lack of editing, it's the kind of criticism that comes from love rather than hate.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:51 am

Jeff V wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:03 am Well, Martin was good. As I read him as a full-formed adult with some literary creds, I'm pretty sure if I did re-read him, it would still be good. But I read (listened to the audiobook production) of Jordan's first novel about 2 years ago and found no reason to be impressed. And there's the constant reminders that mid-series it gets worse. Much worse. Now, I generally have a tolerance for slow-developing series...because I do enjoy epic stories. That Anderson series I mentioned I was confused at best after the first book...so much so I kind of want to read it again to see if it made more sense after reading the whole 7 book series.

I think with Jordan it wasn't just the whole "D&D adventure" vibe its that when I was running D&D adventures, mine probably told a more interesting story.

Are they as bad as the Brian Herbert Dune crap?

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:32 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:51 am Are they as bad as the Brian Herbert Dune crap?

You mean the crap you didn't read and have no basis for a credible opinion? That crap? Jordan I thought was a magnitude shittier, so evaluate the relative merit of feces as you wish.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:33 pm

Keep that up and you’re getting the Herbert series for Christmas, hepcat.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:57 pm

No thanks, I don't have a fireplace.

xenocide · Post by **xenocide** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:47 pm

Well I really liked it. I'm similar to runningmn9 in that I've read the entire series 3 times, books 1-6 more. I also agree with his and yellowking's assessment of the books (6 is my favorite of the series, 5 is my least favorite of the first 6). On to the show...

I'll admit the first episode was jarring with the changes. After getting over that, episodes 2 and 3 were great. I plan on rewatching the first 3 and I think I'll like episode one much more knowing the changes beforehand.

Perrin was the biggest shock to me. I've read some things on Reddit that claim a lot of input/interference from the Amazon higher ups on episode one and I believe it because I think it shows. There was clearly some kind of issues going on between Perrin and his wife that I assume the explication for was cut because your can see it but it's never explained. I do see why they did it, can't be in his head for internal dialog and this gives obvious motivation for future actions.

I have to admit I liked Matt. I like his show background as much as his book one. He is not that great of a character in the first couple books. Yes, Able got a big change but he is so minor a character it does not bother me.

Rand and Egwene sexy time caught me off guard but is another change I like in retrospect. The characters are older in the show and it makes it feel a little more real.

Personally I loved the whitecloaks. Makes them a great advisory to the aes sedai.

Loved the trollocs. Are they a bit goofy? Maybe, but they are a bit goofy in the books also. Show trollocs were a scary, brutal kind of goofy while remaining different enough from other fantasy orcs.

Loved, loved Moraine and Nynaeve, thought they were perfect. Really liked Thom as well.

Diverse small town? Come on guys, let's not get crazy. That was perfectly fine and matters not at all to the story. Of all the things one needs to hand wave in fantasy that's as low down the list as we can get. Only thing they needed to do was make Rand the same as the Aeil and they did.

One thing I have not seen anyone mention and am going to look for in my rewatch: do they ever mention saidin or saidar by name? I only remember them saying the one power? That, combined with how the reds talked about men wielding the power, combined with Moraine saying dragon reborn could be a girl, makes me wonder if they did away with saidin and saidar and combined them into the one power. I hope not, that could bother me. The taint on the male half is fundamental, not sure how they would work that.

For those interested, Brandon Sanderson made a post on the wot Reddit with his thoughts on the first 3 episodes and his involvement with the show. For example he argued against Perrin having a wife and thought her role should have been given to master Luhan.

Looking forward to more episodes.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:14 pm

xenocide wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:47 pm Loved the trollocs. Are they a bit goofy? Maybe, but they are a bit goofy in the books also. Show trollocs were a scary, brutal kind of goofy while remaining different enough from other fantasy orcs.

When I read the books as they were released back in the 90s, I was an avid Warhammer player. In my mind's eye I always saw the trollocs as chaos beastmen. The show got pretty close to that.

I'm actually going to sit down and give the books another spin. I read them as they came out, and always re-read the previous ones. Due to the complexity and number of characters, it was too hard to remember what was what otherwise. So when #2 came out I reread #1. And when #3 came out, I read #1 and #2. By the time #7 came out, I'd read #6 twice, #3 five times, etc. That's when I decided to toss them on the shelf and just wait until the thing was done.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:33 pm

xenocide wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:47 pm Well I really liked it. I'm similar to runningmn9 in that I've read the entire series 3 times, books 1-6 more. I also agree with his and yellowking's assessment of the books (6 is my favorite of the series, 5 is my least favorite of the first 6). On to the show...

I'll admit the first episode was jarring with the changes. After getting over that, episodes 2 and 3 were great. I plan on rewatching the first 3 and I think I'll like episode one much more knowing the changes beforehand.

Perrin was the biggest shock to me. I've read some things on Reddit that claim a lot of input/interference from the Amazon higher ups on episode one and I believe it because I think it shows. There was clearly some kind of issues going on between Perrin and his wife that I assume the explication for was cut because your can see it but it's never explained. I do see why they did it, can't be in his head for internal dialog and this gives obvious motivation for future actions.

I also read the whole series multiple times. I have no clear preference for any of the books before TPOD where I divide where Jordan lost the plot pace. If I had to pick one 3 or 6 would probably be my favorite but not by much.

What they did with Perrin/Mat/Rand/Egwene/Nynaeve makes sense to me for tv. In the books, the three boys are essentially farm boys who were indistinguishable and developed over time. That doesn't cut it for "tv" so I get that. They needed to cleave the Egwene/Rand storyline early and they hit us over the head with it. I wanted to scream...we get it! Also, the Nynaeve change was supposed to show us how clever she is but just tracking Lan should have been enough like it was in the book. The trolloc/cave thing was a little much. As to Perrin, it certainly does feel like there was a subtext that got cut for time and he isn't getting enough screen time to make it all that impactful. It was the change I found least useful/needed.

One thing I have not seen anyone mention and am going to look for in my rewatch: do they ever mention saidin or saidar by name? I only remember them saying the one power?

No and it didn't even mention the one power until well into episode 2.

That, combined with how the reds talked about men wielding the power, combined with Moraine saying dragon reborn could be a girl, makes me wonder if they did away with saidin and saidar and combined them into the one power. I hope not, that could bother me. The taint on the male half is fundamental, not sure how they would work that.

It does seem like they decided to combine them...but it isn't clear yet.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:19 pm

I'm late to the party and picked up the show today.

The pilot sent me into a (mental) sputtering fury over how it disregarded and re-wrote huge and important chunks of the main plot and character details that spanned 14 books. I felt like they were pissing on a story I was intimately familiar with since the age of 15.

I left the show on but checked out and played a game while it toiled on in the background screen. I admit to only being passingly aware of what was happening at that point and that made it more tolerable.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:46 pm

Oh, please tell me that's not who I think it is...

Spoiler image from upcoming episode.

Spoiler:

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:00 pm

Re: Blackhawk's spoiler - oh well, it was good while it lasted.

disarm · Post by **disarm** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:06 pm

Blackhawk wrote:Oh, please tell me that's not who I think it is...

Spoiler image from upcoming episode.

Spoiler:

Ugh...a part of me can understand doing something different from the books for simplicity/budget reasons for someone who will be onscreen so much, but that just looks awful

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:45 pm

Nice to see that Grizzly Adams is still getting work.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:57 pm

Oh dear heavens, we're not suggesting that's

Spoiler:

Are we?

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:59 pm

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:01 pm

Womp womp.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:11 pm

I'm get strong vibes of this from that photo for some reason

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:18 pm

I never once imagined him having a giant red mop of hair shaped like like Moss's hair from the IT Crowd.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:16 pm

He looks like the guy invited to the Wheel of Time costume party that forgot about it until 30 minutes before he was supposed to show up.

malchior wrote:I'm get strong vibes of this from that photo for some reason

I would pay good money to see him break into "Little Miss Can't Be Wrong" re: Moiraine.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:43 pm

Feels like a good time for the Treatment(tm).

xenocide wrote:Well I really liked it.

We’ll see if we can change that.

xenocide wrote:I'll admit the first episode was jarring with the changes. After getting over that, episodes 2 and 3 were great. I plan on rewatching the first 3 and I think I'll like episode one much more knowing the changes beforehand.

I’ve seen each episode three times so far. I can confirm that repeated viewings lessen the rage. Episode 3 was the best for me so far because it felt like it changed things in a “normal” way.

xenocide wrote:Perrin was the biggest shock to me. I've read some things on Reddit that claim a lot of input/interference from the Amazon higher ups on episode one and I believe it because I think it shows. There was clearly some kind of issues going on between Perrin and his wife that I assume the explication for was cut because your can see it but it's never explained.

Am I the only one that felt like whatever was between Perrin and his wife had something to do with Egwene?

I assume that entire fiasco was to justify him hating to use his axe. It was a bit ham-fisted to me.

xenocide wrote:I have to admit I liked Matt. I like his show background as much as his book one. He is not that great of a character in the first couple books. Yes, Able got a big change but he is so minor a character it does not bother me.

I like Mat better the most so far (which is a shame). They provided some context for how he is, but gave him some sympathetic factors because of how protective of his sisters he is.

Abel got done dirty and I will not accept it.

xenocide wrote:Rand and Egwene sexy time caught me off guard but is another change I like in retrospect. The characters are older in the show and it makes it feel a little more real.

Sexy time itself was perfectly acceptable. In the middle of the common room of an inn with guests seemed odd.

xenocide wrote:Personally I loved the whitecloaks. Makes them a great adversary to the aes sedai.

Once they revealed that the first guy was a Questioner, that made more sense. Seeing the normal Whitecloak, that guy was more what I expected. Why they didn’t help me out with a Shepherds crook, I don’t know.

xenocide wrote:Loved the trollocs. Are they a bit goofy? Maybe, but they are a bit goofy in the books also. Show trollocs were a scary, brutal kind of goofy while remaining different enough from other fantasy orcs.

Had no issues with the Trollocs or the Fades. Sounds like I’m going to have some issues with the Ogier.

xenocide wrote:Loved, loved Moraine and Nynaeve, thought they were perfect.

Moraine feels slightly off to me. Rosamund Pike is just slightly too detached and cold for me. I have no thoughts on Nynaeve.

xenocide wrote:Really liked Thom as well.

This Thom is a bit rougher than I expected, but I dug his Chris Cornell unplugged impression.

xenocide wrote:One thing I have not seen anyone mention and am going to look for in my rewatch: do they ever mention saidin or saidar by name? I only remember them saying the one power? That, combined with how the reds talked about men wielding the power, combined with Moraine saying dragon reborn could be a girl, makes me wonder if they did away with saidin and saidar and combined them into the one power. I hope not, that could bother me. The taint on the male half is fundamental, not sure how they would work that.

I thought it odd the way they are presenting the power. If they are doing away with saidin and saidar, then what’s the point? Why would men suffer madness (they are clearly keeping that), but women wouldn’t?

The taint on the male half of the true source is the critical element that makes the Dragon Reborn such a threat to the world even while he can be their savior. If a woman can be the Dragon, what’s the downside?

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:12 am

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:43 pmThe taint on the male half of the true source is the critical element that makes the Dragon Reborn such a threat to the world even while he can be their savior. If a woman can be the Dragon, what’s the downside?

This really does feel like they were unsure with how the source material would be received with modern eyes versus the importance of it to plot elements. They've got time to clarify it but it does feel a bit ham-fisted and circumscribed at the moment.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:18 am

I cracked open The Great Hunt last night for the first time in... crap, 25 years since Crown of Swords, which I think was the last one I read.

Are New Spring/The Strike at Shayol Ghul/Earlier - Ravens worth reading at some point?

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:27 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:18 am I cracked open The Great Hunt last night for the first time in... crap, 25 years since Crown of Swords, which I think was the last one I read.

Are New Spring/The Strike at Shayol Ghul/Earlier - Ravens worth reading at some point?

They are worth a read:

New Spring is good for insight into both Lan/Moraine and their relationship

Strike at Shayol Ghul is essentially an epilogue to book 4 and is really short - about 10 pages IIRC.

Earlier - Ravens - a good re-ground of Egwene with some nice Emond's field cameos.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:22 am

RunningMn9 wrote:Rosamund Pike is just slightly too detached and cold for me.

I think this will change. They've gone out of their way to demonstrate just how cold and detached she is, which signals to me they're setting up a character arc of her slowly warming up to the kids under her protection.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:26 am

That seems to be my general observation with *all* the characters and their stories (well, except Lan - my man has ice running through his veins). In order to (1) translate to a TV show and (2) speed up the story, they all seem to have received a drama infusion by way of personality/character trait or background. It's not bad for the TV show, but it is definitely happening at breakneck speed in comparison to how things unfolded (as I remember) in the books.

I actually like how Pike is portraying Moiraine. I didn't think I would, but I think she really works for the part.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:32 am

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:26 am That seems to be my general observation with *all* the characters and their stories (well, except Lan - my man has ice running through his veins). In order to (1) translate to a TV show and (2) speed up the story, they all seem to have received a drama infusion by way of personality/character trait or background. It's not bad for the TV show, but it is definitely happening at breakneck speed in comparison to how things unfolded (as I remember) in the books.

Agreed. It certainly makes things feel rushed, but they were always going to feel rushed. 8 episodes per book? Balderdash.

I actually like how Pike is portraying Moiraine. I didn't think I would, but I think she really works for the part.

Ditto that. She's the highlight of the show for me so far.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:47 am

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:26 am It's not bad for the TV show, but it is definitely happening at breakneck speed in comparison to how things unfolded (as I remember) in the books.

If it didn't, they wouldn't get to Shadar Logoth until season 4!

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:06 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:22 am
RunningMn9 wrote:Rosamund Pike is just slightly too detached and cold for me.
I think this will change. They've gone out of their way to demonstrate just how cold and detached she is, which signals to me they're setting up a character arc of her slowly warming up to the kids under her protection.

It also aligns to how it worked in the books.

ydejin · Post by **ydejin** » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:20 am

Amazon seems pretty happy with how the show is being received so far:

“We can firmly say that Wheel of Time was the most watched series premiere of the year and one of the Top 5 series launches of all time for Prime Video,” Amazon Studios head Jennifer Salke told Deadline about the debut …

In an encouraging sign for The Wheel Of Time‘s longevity, the series’ first three episode made available at launch also logged some of the highest completion rates on the service ever, Salke added. Additionally, according to third party TV-I, The Wheel of Time was the #1 series on social across all releases last weekend and is the biggest Amazon Original series on social this year. …

Salke would not disclose further viewership information about The Wheel Of Time premiere but said that “it’s definitely trending to exceed our expectations which were high.”

Also in the same article:

One of the company’s newest hopefuls in the arena is Mass Effect. Amazon Studios is nearing a deal to develop a series based on the best-selling sci-fi video game franchise from Electronic Arts.