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Racism in America (with data)

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Blackhawk »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:25 pm Enlarge Image
geezer wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:06 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:39 pm My problem isn’t with the legal outcome. My problem is with a system that allows someone to insert themselves into a potentially violent situation with a loaded gun, creating the situation in which they felt the need for self-defense, killed two people and wounded a third - and the system places absolutely no responsibility on that person for the outcome.

It’s gross.
This.

Something interesting, maybe a little tangential (or maybe not)... I was listening to an interview with Dan Abrams (Mediaite and a legal analyst for CNN I think) and he gave the opinion that if one of the three that went after Rittenhouse, believing him to be an "active shooter," had killed Rittenhouse (instead of being killed themselves), that THEY would have *also* been found not guilty.
Stole my bit.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:10 pm A thought that's been kicking around my head. If the guy with the skateboard or the jumpkick guy or Glock guy killed Rittenhouse, they would probably get acquitted on self defense grounds as well.
And now I'm visualizing a scenario where armed protestors and armed counter-protestors face each other down and a full-on shooting battle breaks out. Dozens are killed, and both sides can (successfully) claim self defense, because both sides felt themselves faced with active armed aggressors.

It's open season on humans.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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:violence-rapidfire: :violence-ripper: :violence-snipersmiley: :violence-rocket:

:angry-screaming:
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:09 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:25 pm Enlarge Image
geezer wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:06 pm
RunningMn9 wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:39 pm My problem isn’t with the legal outcome. My problem is with a system that allows someone to insert themselves into a potentially violent situation with a loaded gun, creating the situation in which they felt the need for self-defense, killed two people and wounded a third - and the system places absolutely no responsibility on that person for the outcome.

It’s gross.
This.

Something interesting, maybe a little tangential (or maybe not)... I was listening to an interview with Dan Abrams (Mediaite and a legal analyst for CNN I think) and he gave the opinion that if one of the three that went after Rittenhouse, believing him to be an "active shooter," had killed Rittenhouse (instead of being killed themselves), that THEY would have *also* been found not guilty.
Stole my bit.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:10 pm A thought that's been kicking around my head. If the guy with the skateboard or the jumpkick guy or Glock guy killed Rittenhouse, they would probably get acquitted on self defense grounds as well.
And now I'm visualizing a scenario where armed protestors and armed counter-protestors face each other down and a full-on shooting battle breaks out. Dozens are killed, and both sides can (successfully) claim self defense, because both sides felt themselves faced with active armed aggressors.

It's open season on humans.
Its called "mutual combat."
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by $iljanus »

What the collective fuck!?!
Arbery’s mother, Wanda Cooper-Jones, left the courtroom after Hogue said that “turning Ahmaud Arbery into a victim after the choices that he made does not reflect the reality of what brought Ahmaud Arbery to Satilla Shores in khaki shorts, with no socks to cover his long dirty toenails,” referring to the neighborhood where he was killed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... arguments/
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by malchior »

Yep. They basically went for a hail Mary by hoping the jury was chock full of racists. Let's see how it goes. This might go severely sideways.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Freyland »

Didn't.... Didn't we just finish 4 pages discussing how the law didn't care that Rittenhouse went out of his way to put himself in danger?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

What am I missing about khaki shorts?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Also, this is the "the way she was dressed, she was asking for it" argument. Like literally.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Dan256 »

Haven't followed this case at all, but I imagine what they are getting at is - joggers do not typically jog in Khakis, nor do joggers go sockless very often, nor do joggers have long toe-nails (I was told that long toe-nails and running shoes just don't go together, I dunno).

I was also told that the defense had done a very good job of showing that Arbery was in fact a burglar who used the jogging excuse as a ruse. (At least that was the opinion of a black lawyer and former prosecutor who had been watching this case closely.)
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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Dan256 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:06 am Haven't followed this case at all, but I imagine what they are getting at is - joggers do not typically jog in Khakis, nor do joggers go sockless very often, nor do joggers have long toe-nails (I was told that long toe-nails and running shoes just don't go together, I dunno).

I was also told that the defense had done a very good job of showing that Arbery was in fact a burglar who used the jogging excuse as a ruse. (At least that was the opinion of a black lawyer and former prosecutor who had been watching this case closely.)
I've heard this a couple times now. Last I checked, burglary is not a capital offense with the execution duties relegated to local rednecks with shotguns.

I don't care if dude was walking off with everything not nailed down...it's still not an excuse to murder him.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hepcat »

That's what it boils down to for me. These were vigilantes and there's a reason law enforcement hates vigilantes. By nature, they act as judge, jury and executioner. The killers should have called the cops. Period. No one was in personal danger initially.

Also, if you purposely put yourself into a situation where you need to claim self defense for killing someone, you've already failed.

p.s. The toenails thing was beyond ridiculous and outrageous. I'm glad it's getting called out as such in many places.
Last edited by hepcat on Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Octavious »

I'll be way more pissed if these guys get off. There's zero grey area in what happened with this case. But they probably get off and go on Tucker Carlson as well. ;)
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:36 am
Dan256 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:06 am Haven't followed this case at all, but I imagine what they are getting at is - joggers do not typically jog in Khakis, nor do joggers go sockless very often, nor do joggers have long toe-nails (I was told that long toe-nails and running shoes just don't go together, I dunno).

I was also told that the defense had done a very good job of showing that Arbery was in fact a burglar who used the jogging excuse as a ruse. (At least that was the opinion of a black lawyer and former prosecutor who had been watching this case closely.)
I've heard this a couple times now. Last I checked, burglary is not a capital offense with the execution duties relegated to local rednecks with shotguns.

I don't care if dude was walking off with everything not nailed down...it's still not an excuse to murder him.
But in nearly all states, you can't generally use deadly force merely to defend your property. (Texas appears to be an exception, allowing use of deadly force when there's no other way to protect or recapture property even in situations involving simple theft or criminal mischief, though only at night, Tex. Penal Code § 9.42; see, e.g., McFadden v. State (Tex. Ct. App. 2018).) That's where we get the conventional formulation that you can't use deadly force just to defend property.

[2.] This conventional formulation, though, omits an important limitation: In basically all states, you can use nondeadly force to defend your property—and if the thief or vandal responds by threatening you with death or great bodily harm, you can then protect yourself with deadly force. So in practice, you can use deadly force to protect property after all, if you're willing to use nondeadly force first and expose yourself to increased risk.

And in some states, you don't even need to expose yourself to such increased risk, if you reasonably fear at the outset that nondeadly protection of property would be too dangerous. In those states, to quote the Model Penal Code formulation (which some have adopted), deadly force can be used if...

https://reason.com/volokh/2020/06/02/ar ... -property/
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Dan256 »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:36 am
Dan256 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:06 am Haven't followed this case at all, but I imagine what they are getting at is - joggers do not typically jog in Khakis, nor do joggers go sockless very often, nor do joggers have long toe-nails (I was told that long toe-nails and running shoes just don't go together, I dunno).

I was also told that the defense had done a very good job of showing that Arbery was in fact a burglar who used the jogging excuse as a ruse. (At least that was the opinion of a black lawyer and former prosecutor who had been watching this case closely.)
I've heard this a couple times now. Last I checked, burglary is not a capital offense with the execution duties relegated to local rednecks with shotguns.

I don't care if dude was walking off with everything not nailed down...it's still not an excuse to murder him.
Yeah, I don't disagree with you on that. I was merely answering as to why the defense would paint Arbery in that light. It seems like a very legitimate paint job to me. One would expect the defense to do this; they'd be remiss if they had not.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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I read an opinion from a civil rights lawyer stating that he felt the "long dirty toenails" line is dangerously close to "escaped slave" in its context.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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I know the point isn't really being argued, but I would like to point out that not dressing (or manicuring) as expected for a runner does not necessarily mean you're a thief disguised as a runner.

There was a guy in my old neighborhood that I used to see when I was out jogging. This guy always had on long khaki pants, slip on dress shoes, and a polo shirt. And this dude could run circles around me. I'd go out for 3 mile runs around a loop near my house, and this guy would be running when I got there and still running when I left.

Some people may not be able to afford the proper clothes and shoes. Some may just choose to wear what's comfortable. All I know is me in my $150 running shoes, Nike shorts and Under Armour shirt didn't mean jack shit when it came down to which of us was the better runner.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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hepcat wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:25 pm I read an opinion from a civil rights lawyer stating that he felt the "long dirty toenails" line is dangerously close to "escaped slave" in its context.
It's seems quite obvious to me that "long toe-nails" is in reference to "Jogger's Toe", a very common ailment. It is in no way, shape, or form close to "escaped slave" in its context. I'm not at all surprised though that a civil rights lawyer would proffer such a disingenuous "opinion".
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Does "dirty" have any relevance?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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Dan256 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:45 pm
hepcat wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:25 pm I read an opinion from a civil rights lawyer stating that he felt the "long dirty toenails" line is dangerously close to "escaped slave" in its context.
It's seems quite obvious to me that "long toe-nails" is in reference to "Jogger's Toe", a very common ailment.
To me, THAT takeaway sounds utterly ridiculous. Unless you're being sarcastic perhaps?
Last edited by hepcat on Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by malchior »

hepcat wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:25 pm I read an opinion from a civil rights lawyer stating that he felt the "long dirty toenails" line is dangerously close to "escaped slave" in its context.
Maybe that is a stretch but it at the very least was meant as a dehumanizing element. Especially since it was in a freight train of dehumanizing elements that the 3 defense attorneys strung together.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by stimpy »

What if you have long, dirty fingernails?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hepcat »

Then apparently you play handball.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Dan256 »

YellowKing wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:40 pm I know the point isn't really being argued, but I would like to point out that not dressing (or manicuring) as expected for a runner does not necessarily mean you're a thief disguised as a runner.

There was a guy in my old neighborhood that I used to see when I was out jogging. This guy always had on long khaki pants, slip on dress shoes, and a polo shirt. And this dude could run circles around me. I'd go out for 3 mile runs around a loop near my house, and this guy would be running when I got there and still running when I left.

Some people may not be able to afford the proper clothes and shoes. Some may just choose to wear what's comfortable. All I know is me in my $150 running shoes, Nike shorts and Under Armour shirt didn't mean jack shit when it came down to which of us was the better runner.
No one would say, "If you see Bozo the Clown running through your neighborhood, you don't have the right to shoot him." Of course you do. And no one would say, in your example, that you don't have the right to shoot a guy who is wearing khaki pants and a slip on dress. Again, of course you do. But I'm going to have to disagree with you that you can shoot Arbery for his poor dress choices. I can see why you would want to, but you really can't.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Alefroth »

Did they examine his toenails before they blasted him with a shotgun?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LordMortis »

I'm totally ignorant of my surroundings. I'd be hard pressed to notice a jogger wearing khaki shorts much less exposed toes much less exposed toe with regard toe nail hygiene.

That said, jogging sockless in sandals is a thing, even if I would never notice it.

First site I found:

https://xeroshoes.com/sandals/running/

I only know this because I saw an episode of someone hawking this trend on a Sharktank rerun on CNBC once.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hepcat »

This discussion is turning surreal.

Not complaining, mind you. God knows I've been the cause of that many a time.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Dan256 »

hepcat wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:59 pm
Dan256 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:45 pm
hepcat wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:25 pm I read an opinion from a civil rights lawyer stating that he felt the "long dirty toenails" line is dangerously close to "escaped slave" in its context.
It's seems quite obvious to me that "long toe-nails" is in reference to "Jogger's Toe", a very common ailment.
To me, THAT takeaway sounds utterly ridiculous. Unless you're being sarcastic perhaps?
Really? You're unaware that Jogger's Toe is caused, in part, by long toe-nails? I honestly thought that you were being disingenuous when you claimed to see no connection.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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Dan256 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:11 pm
YellowKing wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:40 pm I know the point isn't really being argued, but I would like to point out that not dressing (or manicuring) as expected for a runner does not necessarily mean you're a thief disguised as a runner.

There was a guy in my old neighborhood that I used to see when I was out jogging. This guy always had on long khaki pants, slip on dress shoes, and a polo shirt. And this dude could run circles around me. I'd go out for 3 mile runs around a loop near my house, and this guy would be running when I got there and still running when I left.

Some people may not be able to afford the proper clothes and shoes. Some may just choose to wear what's comfortable. All I know is me in my $150 running shoes, Nike shorts and Under Armour shirt didn't mean jack shit when it came down to which of us was the better runner.
No one would say, "If you see Bozo the Clown running through your neighborhood, you don't have the right to shoot him." Of course you do. And no one would say, in your example, that you don't have the right to shoot a guy who is wearing khaki pants and a slip on dress. Again, of course you do. But I'm going to have to disagree with you that you can shoot Arbery for his poor dress choices. I can see why you would want to, but you really can't.
Huh? I think you need to reread YK's comment.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hepcat »

You were being serious? Your reply to me is the very definition of disingenuous, in my opinion. Why in God's name would a defense lawyer refer to "Jogger's Toe" in her closing arguments? That's just nonsense. :?

Now I'm back to thinking you're just messing with folks.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Alefroth »

LordMortis wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:14 pm I'm totally ignorant of my surroundings. I'd be hard pressed to notice a jogger wearing khaki shorts much less exposed toes much less exposed toe with regard toe nail hygiene.

That said, jogging sockless in sandals is a thing, even if I would never notice it.

First site I found:

https://xeroshoes.com/sandals/running/

I only know this because I saw an episode of someone hawking this trend on a Sharktank rerun on CNBC once.
He wasn't wearing open-toed shows though, was he?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Isgrimnur »

She wouldn't. The defe3nse is referencing "dirty" as a character assassination. If the toenails were bruised because of runner's toe, that actually helps the prosecution, as it supports the jogger aspect.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LordMortis »

Alefroth wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:20 pm He wasn't wearing open-toed shows though, was he?
How else would you know he had long dirty toe nails and use that as evidence to judge his worthiness as a jogger in your neighborhood?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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Dan256 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:11 pmNo one would say, "If you see Bozo the Clown running through your neighborhood, you don't have the right to shoot him." Of course you do. And no one would say, in your example, that you don't have the right to shoot a guy who is wearing khaki pants and a slip on dress. Again, of course you do. But I'm going to have to disagree with you that you can shoot Arbery for his poor dress choices. I can see why you would want to, but you really can't.
Now I'm really confused. Of course all rational people would say that you don't have the right to shoot Bozo, or a guy wearing khaki pants and a slip-on dress.
Dan256 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:16 pm Really? You're unaware that Jogger's Toe is caused, in part, by long toe-nails? I honestly thought that you were being disingenuous when you claimed to see no connection.
Uhh, yeah. Too-long toenails in running shoes. Not sandals. But this is such an extreme stretch of an aside as to strain all credulity. If his nails were causing it, you'd not be able to see the nails (because they'd be encased in running shoes). If you can see his nails, they're not causing it (because they're not pushing against a running shoe).
hepcat wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:15 pm This discussion is turning surreal.
Amen.

Dan, I'm possibly misinterpreting your stance here--though your inability to see how the defense's focus on the appearance of Arbery is in fact related in spirit to the escaped slave comment; your 'not at all surprised that a civil rights lawyer would proffer such a 'disingenuous "opnion"'; and your jump from posting once every nearly two months to being all over this thread make me think I am not--but you are not coming off well here. What is it that you're trying to convey through your participation in this thread today? That the defense was not engaging in character assassination?

I hope that's not it, because they were clearly and overtly engaging in character assassination.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Dan256 »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:50 pm Does "dirty" have any relevance?
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, even though I agree with your implication that saying "dirty" is outright dirty in this context. But, you could make the stretch (and it's a stretch,) that a "true" jogger would know about jogger's toe and would also know that having jogger's toe with dirty nails is worse that having jogger's toe with clean nails because of obvious concerns of infection.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Alefroth »

LordMortis wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:23 pm
Alefroth wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:20 pm He wasn't wearing open-toed shows though, was he?
How else would you know he had long dirty toe nails and use that as evidence to judge his worthiness as a jogger in your neighborhood?
That's the question, isn't it?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Zaxxon »

Dan256 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:24 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:50 pm Does "dirty" have any relevance?
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, even though I agree with your implication that saying "dirty" is outright dirty in this context. But, you could make the stretch (and it's a stretch,) that a "true" jogger would know about jogger's toe and would also know that having jogger's toe with dirty nails is worse that having jogger's toe with clean nails because of obvious concerns of infection.
Speaking as a long-distance runner for more decades than I'd like to admit, this is horseshit. :) I'd argue, even, that a majority of 'joggers' have never even run far enough for such a thing to be a major concern. Many that have wouldn't recognize it by that name.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Isgrimnur »

His shoes:
Spoiler:
Image
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hepcat
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hepcat »

Is that his blood on those? :shock:

In any case, they look like sneakers to me.
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Isgrimnur
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Isgrimnur »

It's why they're in a spoiler tag.
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Zaxxon
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Zaxxon »

Yeah, I see I misread LM's comment about sandals to imply Arbery was wearing sandals. I'm still confused as to how the mention of toenails could possibly be anything more than character assassination. Socks or no socks isn't even something that someone could tell in the moment--runners often wear no-show socks (or no socks, as has been mentioned). Plainly, it's completely irrelevant for anything but calling into question his character, or more specifically his otherness.
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