Octopus Overlords

Holman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:54 pm
1) FBI Director Chris Wray clarified a timeline on the Rob Porter allegations that suggests the WH has known about them for eleven months. (Sarah Sanders tried pushing the line that the administration heard about the allegations the same day we did.)

Indeed, sex is not the only kind of secret Trump harbors. He endured months of criticism first from Republican candidates, then Democrats, and all along from the media, for refusing to disclose his tax returns. Trump clearly feels protective of his financial information. Some of that information is in the hands of his business partners, many of whom are associated with Russia or are unsavory in some other way. All in all, the odds are disconcertingly high that Russia, or somebody, has blackmail leverage over the president of the United States.

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:25 pm

Daehawk wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:51 pm Are there no laws against shit like that? He seems to be a real shitheaded moron. Should be some law against stupid people doing stupid things in a Gov job. Course then we'd have no gov at all.

I think you should rethink that attitude. "EVERYONE in government is stupid!" isn't true, and it stokes the kind of reaction that gives us Trump.

The indictment says that the defendants by early to mid-2016 were "supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J. Trump ... and disparaging Hillary Clinton."

The indictment said "the organization," known as the Internet Research Agency LLC, "sought, in part, to conduct what it called 'information warfare against the United States of America' through fictitious U.S. personas on social media platforms and other Internet-based media."

"By in or around May 2014, the organization's strategy included interfering with the 2016 U.S. presidential election, with the stated goal of "spread[ing] distrust towards the candidates and the political system in general," the indictment said.

An announcement from Mueller's office said that the government accuses all the defendants of conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Three defendants are charged with conspiracy to commit wire fraud and bank fraud.

Five defendants are charged with aggravated identity theft.

...Defendents knowingly and intentionally conspired with each other (and with persons known and unknown to the Grand Jury) to defraud the United States...

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:23 pm Well! Seems like it's going to be marginally harder for Republicans to rotely assert that there's nothing to uncover. Although I'm sure that they're still going to try.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:25 pm Also, there are lots of reports that Gates - Manafort's second in command- is close to a plea deal with Mueller.

Those two guys on Trump's team with legal pads better kick it up a notch.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:53 pm
- (my personal favorite) "The indictment specifically mentions that these people actively worked on influencing others not to support Clinton. This proves that it's a liberal witchhunt!"

And after the election of Trump as president in November 2016, the defendants used fake personas to organize and coordinate political rallies in support of Trump, while also doing the same to create rallies "protesting the results" of the election, the indictment said.

On one day, Nov. 12, 2016, the defendants organized a rally in New York to "show your support for President-elect Donald Trump" while at the same time organizing a "Trump is NOT my president rally" that also was held in New York.

Rosenstein said there is no allegation in the indictment that any American was a knowing participant in the scheme, nor is there any allegation that the scheme affected the outcome of the election.

"By in or around May 2014, the organization's strategy included interfering with the 2016 U.S. presidential election, with the stated goal of "spread[ing] distrust towards the candidates and the political system in general," the indictment said.

Rip wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:11 pm

And after the election of Trump as president in November 2016, the defendants used fake personas to organize and coordinate political rallies in support of Trump, while also doing the same to create rallies "protesting the results" of the election, the indictment said.

On one day, Nov. 12, 2016, the defendants organized a rally in New York to "show your support for President-elect Donald Trump" while at the same time organizing a "Trump is NOT my president rally" that also was held in New York.

Rosenstein said there is no allegation in the indictment that any American was a knowing participant in the scheme, nor is there any allegation that the scheme affected the outcome of the election.

"By in or around May 2014, the organization's strategy included interfering with the 2016 U.S. presidential election, with the stated goal of "spread[ing] distrust towards the candidates and the political system in general," the indictment said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/16/russian ... probe.html

Nothing really surprising.

Enough wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:56 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:25 pm Also, there are lots of reports that Gates - Manafort's second in command- is close to a plea deal with Mueller.

Those two guys on Trump's team with legal pads better kick it up a notch.

I want to see Manafort pay as much (or maybe even more) as I do Trump, no deals for him.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:16 pm

Rip wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:11 pm

And after the election of Trump as president in November 2016, the defendants used fake personas to organize and coordinate political rallies in support of Trump, while also doing the same to create rallies "protesting the results" of the election, the indictment said.

On one day, Nov. 12, 2016, the defendants organized a rally in New York to "show your support for President-elect Donald Trump" while at the same time organizing a "Trump is NOT my president rally" that also was held in New York.

Rosenstein said there is no allegation in the indictment that any American was a knowing participant in the scheme, nor is there any allegation that the scheme affected the outcome of the election.

"By in or around May 2014, the organization's strategy included interfering with the 2016 U.S. presidential election, with the stated goal of "spread[ing] distrust towards the candidates and the political system in general," the indictment said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/16/russian ... probe.html

Nothing really surprising.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:53 pm The early responses on social media seem to be some combination of:

- "See, it was all Russia. Americans had nothing to do with it"
- "People simply expressing opinions on which candidate they favor isn't illegal."
- (my personal favorite) "The indictment specifically mentions that these people actively worked on influencing others not to support Clinton. This proves that it's a liberal witchhunt!"

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:08 pm I'd be much, much more interested in learning that Trump and his cronies were working with these individuals/entities. That seems to me to clearly cross many, many lines and actually be something our justice system could address. Severely.

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:08 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:53 pm The early responses on social media seem to be some combination of:

- "See, it was all Russia. Americans had nothing to do with it"
- "People simply expressing opinions on which candidate they favor isn't illegal."
- (my personal favorite) "The indictment specifically mentions that these people actively worked on influencing others not to support Clinton. This proves that it's a liberal witchhunt!"

I actually struggle with this one on some level. What is the criminal act?

- Is it that they were using false identities? That's practically assumed on the Internet and throughout social media. News flash: I'm not really Kurth, and I bet you're not really Skinypupy!
- Is it that they were spreading false information? Again, isn't that pretty much an everyday occurrence?
- Is it that they are foreign nationals? Hard to see how that could be an element to a criminal offense.

I'm going to try to find some time this afternoon to read through the indictment. But I have a tough time with the notion that propagation of "fake news" by foreign nationals (or citizens, for that matter) with the intent to influence the election is a criminal offense.

Also, is this anything more than symbolic? It's not like Russia is going to send the 13 Russian nationals over here to stand trial or that the 3 Russian entities will make an appearance. I suppose, if convicted, we could bar them from reentry into the U.S., but I doubt that's going to keep them up at night or really dis-incentivize this kind of thing going forward. What other sentence/penalty are the indicted parties really likely to face?

I'd be much, much more interested in learning that Trump and his cronies were working with these individuals/entities. That seems to me to clearly cross many, many lines and actually be something our justice system could address. Severely.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:16 pm

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:08 pm I'd be much, much more interested in learning that Trump and his cronies were working with these individuals/entities. That seems to me to clearly cross many, many lines and actually be something our justice system could address. Severely.

That's seems to be the key question here. If not, then I'm with you in that this isn't much more than a symbolic gesture.

If so...then it's a whole different story.

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:08 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:53 pm The early responses on social media seem to be some combination of:

- "See, it was all Russia. Americans had nothing to do with it"
- "People simply expressing opinions on which candidate they favor isn't illegal."
- (my personal favorite) "The indictment specifically mentions that these people actively worked on influencing others not to support Clinton. This proves that it's a liberal witchhunt!"

I actually struggle with this one on some level. What is the criminal act?

- Is it that they were using false identities? That's practically assumed on the Internet and throughout social media. News flash: I'm not really Kurth, and I bet you're not really Skinypupy!
- Is it that they were spreading false information? Again, isn't that pretty much an everyday occurrence?
- Is it that they are foreign nationals? Hard to see how that could be an element to a criminal offense.

I'm going to try to find some time this afternoon to read through the indictment. But I have a tough time with the notion that propagation of "fake news" by foreign nationals (or citizens, for that matter) with the intent to influence the election is a criminal offense.

Also, is this anything more than symbolic? It's not like Russia is going to send the 13 Russian nationals over here to stand trial or that the 3 Russian entities will make an appearance. I suppose, if convicted, we could bar them from reentry into the U.S., but I doubt that's going to keep them up at night or really dis-incentivize this kind of thing going forward. What other sentence/penalty are the indicted parties really likely to face?

I'd be much, much more interested in learning that Trump and his cronies were working with these individuals/entities. That seems to me to clearly cross many, many lines and actually be something our justice system could address. Severely.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:18 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:16 pm

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:08 pm I'd be much, much more interested in learning that Trump and his cronies were working with these individuals/entities. That seems to me to clearly cross many, many lines and actually be something our justice system could address. Severely.

That's seems to be the key question here. If not, then I'm with you in that this isn't much more than a symbolic gesture.

If so...then it's a whole different story.

Nothing in the indictment that I could tell implicates any knowing COLLUSION from Trump or his cronies.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:16 pm

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:08 pm I'd be much, much more interested in learning that Trump and his cronies were working with these individuals/entities. That seems to me to clearly cross many, many lines and actually be something our justice system could address. Severely.

That's seems to be the key question here. If not, then I'm with you in that this isn't much more than a symbolic gesture.

If so...then it's a whole different story.

Rip wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:25 pm I mean why would they after setting up a VPN for the sole purpose of appearing as Americans. Outing themselves as Russian to someone would have no upside.

The researchers quickly dismissed their initial fear that the logs represented a malware attack. The communication wasn’t the work of bots. The irregular pattern of server lookups actually resembled the pattern of human conversation—conversations that began during office hours in New York and continued during office hours in Moscow. It dawned on the researchers that this wasn’t an attack, but a sustained relationship between a server registered to the Trump Organization and two servers registered to an entity called Alfa Bank.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:32 pm

Rip wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:25 pm I mean why would they after setting up a VPN for the sole purpose of appearing as Americans. Outing themselves as Russian to someone would have no upside.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ussia.html

The researchers quickly dismissed their initial fear that the logs represented a malware attack. The communication wasn’t the work of bots. The irregular pattern of server lookups actually resembled the pattern of human conversation—conversations that began during office hours in New York and continued during office hours in Moscow. It dawned on the researchers that this wasn’t an attack, but a sustained relationship between a server registered to the Trump Organization and two servers registered to an entity called Alfa Bank.

Rip wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:46 pm If the US person were duped, which in all the cases in the indictment was true, then the US person has committed no crime.

Jeff V wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:51 pm

Rip wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:46 pm If the US person were duped, which in all the cases in the indictment was true, then the US person has committed no crime.

That's gonna be your defense strategy, huh?

LordMortis wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:18 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:16 pm

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:08 pm I'd be much, much more interested in learning that Trump and his cronies were working with these individuals/entities. That seems to me to clearly cross many, many lines and actually be something our justice system could address. Severely.

That's seems to be the key question here. If not, then I'm with you in that this isn't much more than a symbolic gesture.

If so...then it's a whole different story.

Nothing in the indictment that I could tell implicates any knowing COLLUSION from Trump or his cronies.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:55 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:18 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:16 pm

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:08 pm I'd be much, much more interested in learning that Trump and his cronies were working with these individuals/entities. That seems to me to clearly cross many, many lines and actually be something our justice system could address. Severely.

That's seems to be the key question here. If not, then I'm with you in that this isn't much more than a symbolic gesture.

If so...then it's a whole different story.

Nothing in the indictment that I could tell implicates any knowing COLLUSION from Trump or his cronies.

If it's there, it won't come out before a Trump indictment.

Rip wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:25 pm

Seems unlikely. These guys(and girls) went through great pains to hide the fact the were Russians. You would need not only contact but proof the American knew they were Russian. Lots of contacts identified in the indictment and not a single one was made aware they were Russian. I mean why would they after setting up a VPN for the sole purpose of appearing as Americans. Outing themselves as Russian to someone would have no upside.

hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:33 pm Trump's ego will not let this stand. Commence the Tweetifying!

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:43 pm I don't care whether you believe there was actual collusion or not, the mere fact that Trump vehemently denies Russian meddling even after intelligence community proof and indictments should send GIANT red flags. What US President, who had no shady ties with Russia, would need to come out so strongly against that? Why wouldn't you just say, "Yes, there was meddling, we will take proper steps to ensure this doesn't happen again" and move on?

Also, I dreamed last night that Trump resigned. I don't believe in psychic phenomena, but this is one case where I REALLY hope that was prophecy.