I address it by suggesting that 'no free will' is an extreme interpretation of that article. First off, it states right in the article, emphasis mine:
"As the decision of what to think about is made, executive areas of the brain choose the thought-trace which is stronger...in other words, if any pre-existing brain activity matches one of your choices, your brain will be more likely to pick that option, as it gets boosted by the pre-existing brain activity," he added.
Being more likely to choose something is a given. We all have preferences, and our psychology pushes us toward those preferences. That doesn't mean that we're force to choose them - just influenced.
Second, sample size 14.
Third, who says that there can be no subconscious element in free will? As I said before, free will is likely more about choosing despite influence. What that study shows could very well just be aspects of our decision making process, level of control aside.
I address it by suggesting that 'no free will' is an extreme interpretation of that article. First off, it states right in the article, emphasis mine:
"As the decision of what to think about is made, executive areas of the brain choose the thought-trace which is stronger...in other words, if any pre-existing brain activity matches one of your choices, your brain will be more likely to pick that option, as it gets boosted by the pre-existing brain activity," he added.
Being more likely to choose something is a given. We all have preferences, and our psychology pushes us toward those preferences. That doesn't mean that we're force to choose them - just influenced.
Second, sample size 14.
Third, who says that there can be no subconscious element in free will? As I said before, free will is likely more about choosing despite influence. What that study shows could very well just be aspects of our decision making process, level of control aside.
Interesting. So basically we are a brain walking around encased in a meat puppet. There are pressures coming at us from our genes, society, the weather, intestinal parasites, etc. It is easier to go with the flow, but for crucial decisions we can shake all that off and step up with a free will conscious decision.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:07 pm
by Isgrimnur
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:09 pm
by Blackhawk
Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:05 pm
Interesting. So basically we are a brain walking around encased in a meat puppet. There are pressures coming at us from our genes, society, the weather, intestinal parasites, etc. It is easier to go with the flow, but for crucial decisions we can shake all that off and step up with a free will conscious decision.
Well, I'd say that our brain is part of the meat puppet. And I don't think I'd limit it to 'crucial' decisions, either.
But now we're back to the whole 'lizard brain' bit. Our minds, whatever those are, are complicated. A range of factors influence us.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:21 pm
by stessier
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:09 pm
A range of factors influence us.
I address it by suggesting that 'no free will' is an extreme interpretation of that article. First off, it states right in the article, emphasis mine:
"As the decision of what to think about is made, executive areas of the brain choose the thought-trace which is stronger...in other words, if any pre-existing brain activity matches one of your choices, your brain will be more likely to pick that option, as it gets boosted by the pre-existing brain activity," he added.
Being more likely to choose something is a given. We all have preferences, and our psychology pushes us toward those preferences. That doesn't mean that we're force to choose them - just influenced.
Second, sample size 14.
Third, who says that there can be no subconscious element in free will? As I said before, free will is likely more about choosing despite influence. What that study shows could very well just be aspects of our decision making process, level of control aside.
Choosing patterns is easy. Deciding which Steam game to spend my limited free time on? That's hard.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 4:43 pm
by Holman
It seems important that the experiment asks the subject to make a completely arbitrary choice with no expectation of any meaningful result from that choice. In no way does it engage values, beliefs, circumstances, consequences, or any of the other factors we consider most important in making decisions.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 10:51 pm
by UsulofDoom
If we have no free will that means we have no choice. Everything we think we know was set by GODs or God when the first atom was created. We just exist created and directed by the bang. Therefore, should people be held responsible for their action once we come to this enlightenment?
The devil made me do it has been used for a long time.
I don't think we want to go there.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 12:08 am
by Jaymann
I don't think the absence of free will equates to predestination. To me it's more like you think you're piloting the ship, but it's actually the wind, rain, currents and choppy seas.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 1:42 am
by Isgrimnur
Or microbiome and parasitic infections.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 11:18 am
by Unagi
UsulofDoom wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 10:51 pm
If we have no free will that means we have no choice.
This is not correct.
Let's just say for a moment that there is NO free will.... That doesn't take away our personal responsibility, nor the illusion that we indeed take part in 'choice' all the time.
UsulofDoom wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 10:51 pm
If we have no free will that means we have no choice.
This is not correct.
Let's just say for a moment that there is NO free will.... That doesn't take away our personal responsibility, nor the illusion that we indeed take part in 'choice' all the time.
If our choices are pre-defined by our past how is that a choice. If I was told to love or hate something that, that defines my choices. Therefore, no free will. 1+1=2 I believe we have free will. Just as I choses to post was my choice and free will .
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 2:48 am
by Madmarcus
UsulofDoom wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 10:51 pm
If we have no free will that means we have no choice. Everything we think we know was set by GODs or God when the first atom was created. We just exist created and directed by the bang. Therefore, should people be held responsible for their action once we come to this enlightenment?
If we do not have free will it doesn't matter whether we hold people responsible since the act of holding them responsible is something that comes inexorably from our past plus a little bit of randomness.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 2:57 am
by Jaymann
According to Sam Harris we should lock up serial killers not as punishment for their actions, but to keep them from harming others.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 8:49 am
by Unagi
Jaymann wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 2:57 am
According to Sam Harris we should lock up serial killers not as punishment for their actions, but to keep them from harming others.
Madness
/sarcasm
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 3:19 pm
by geezer
Jaymann wrote: ↑Sun May 22, 2022 2:57 am
According to Sam Harris we should lock up serial killers not as punishment for their actions, but to keep them from harming others.
That theory of criminal justice actually makes all kind of sense to me, though admittedly "serial killers" is pretty extreme example. More commonly, I've always wondered if wouldn't make more sense if, for example, Bernie Madoff types were forced to work and provide restitution to his victims vs. sitting in jail.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:08 pm
by Jaymann
Neil deGrasse Tyson and Robert Sapolsky weigh in on the debate. It's an hour long, but I skipped ahead to the crux of the matter.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:51 pm
by Unagi
Personally, I think it’s clearly true there isn’t, but I get why it’s disturbing. It shouldn’t be and doesn’t need to be.
I’m not sure how one can argue its “actual existence” (vs. perception) at the atomic, etc level, and win.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:52 pm
by Unagi
I’ll watch that video now, but I hope they come to an agreement.
I know Sapolsky’s view on it.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:57 pm
by Unagi
Yeah, Sapolsky is a great teacher on this. Great share (Still watching, starting over from the beginning).
And I encourage people (who don't swallow it) to watch a few more conversations he's had with others. I've seen a few that are great.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:52 pm
by Grifman
Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:51 pm
Personally, I think it’s clearly true there isn’t, but I get why it’s disturbing. It shouldn’t be and doesn’t need to be.
If it is clearly true that that there isn't, then you really don't think this. It is all predetermined and "you" really did no thinking. To say you think something is true implies you made a choice and could have thought otherwise, which of course, isn't true.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:09 pm
by Unagi
That makes no sense.
Thought is chemical.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:35 pm
by Grifman
Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:09 pm
That makes no sense.
Thought is chemical.
The issue isn't the whether thought exists, the issue is that there is no "I" when you say "I thought". Your "thought" is indeed just a bunch of chemical processes, affected by your environment, genetics, physics, etc. But there is no real "I", no mind, behind your thought. The mind, "you", is an illusion, just like free will.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:40 pm
by Isgrimnur
Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 1:42 am
Or microbiome and parasitic infections.
Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:09 pm
That makes no sense.
Thought is chemical.
The issue isn't the whether thought exists, the issue is that there is no "I" when you say "I thought". Your "thought" is indeed just a bunch of chemical processes, affected by your environment, genetics, physics, etc. But there is no real "I", no mind, behind your thought. The mind, "you", is an illusion, just like free will.
Um, ok.
The brain* behind these fingers that are typing right now wanted to message the brain* behind the eyes that are reading this that both brains have no free will.
*not just brain, but also any-and-all microbiome and parasitic infections that have made a home there.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:37 pm
by Blackhawk
If there's no free will, then preferences, choices, and personality are not 'us.' There is no actual 'us', anymore than my PC running a batch file is an 'us.'
I still lean into the point I made earlier in this thread - the chemistry influences us, but doesn't dictate. Or, as I said on the last page (two years ago tomorrow):
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:35 am
Free will is the alternative to just following orders. It takes effort to to bypass the instinctive response that is ingrained by millions of years, but we're not locked into autopilot.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 5:48 pm
by stessier
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:37 pm
If there's no free will, then preferences, choices, and personality are not 'us.' There is no actual 'us', anymore than my PC running a batch file is an 'us.'
I still lean into the point I made earlier in this thread - the chemistry influences us, but doesn't dictate. Or, as I said on the last page (two years ago tomorrow):
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:35 am
Free will is the alternative to just following orders. It takes effort to to bypass the instinctive response that is ingrained by millions of years, but we're not locked into autopilot.
The examples used in the video are the alcoholic, the epileptic, and the depressed. Do they have the choice not to be depressed, not to have the seizure, or not take the addictive substance? They are the sum of their experiences and situations.
I'm not convinced -I don't see how it could be tested (I know they offered a test, but it was fantastical and not rooted in a physical reality) - but it certainly fits well with observations.
Edit: Incidentally, if true, it means those that have the means need to raise the general environment for everyone to one that leads to more positive outcomes and we need to rethink the penal system.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2024 12:22 pm
by Punisher
Based on your examples I'd say that free will isn't absolute.
I know I didn't choose to have kidney faillure, strokes and a coma. As far as the docs were concerned it also wasnt due to life choices either.
I dont think anyone choose to get covid.
I think seizures fall into this category.
For alcoholism id say that there is a choice involved until there isn't.
In some instances depression can fit into this. Many people have said that they are surprised that I haven't fallen into depression with everything going on. I definitely think I have chosen to not get depressed. But everyone has a breaking point where you dont get a choice. I just hope i dont reach mine.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2024 12:39 pm
by Isgrimnur
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2024 4:28 pm
by Holman
Because the possibilities (free will vs determinism) are completely untestable, the pragmatic choice is to consider the effects of going with either.
I'll quote myself from upthread, since it was a few years ago:
Holman wrote:Since we can't know and since common sense strongly supports the belief in free will, what's gained by presuming we don't have it?
Even more, I can think of all kinds of bad results that likely follow from an ideology rejecting free will. Since we believe ourselves free to believe in free will and to prevent those results, we ought to do so.
It's kind of Pascally.
The counterpoint in the video would be that refusing the existence of free will could lead to a more just world where we treat people more equally and attempt to mitigate the unfairness some people have inherited from an unfortunate roll of the dice.
I don't see how these views are incompatible. I would argue that common sense liberalism already merges the two views when it treats people as having choices but also recognizes that some suffer from systemic or biological disadvantages that an ethical society should attempt to mitigate.
After that, the question of whether we *really* have free will or just *believe* we do becomes merely academic.
Re: Do you believe in free will?
Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2024 7:56 pm
by Unagi
What needs to be proven or disproven? That the laws of physics as we understand them still hold true in the brain? That there is not a magical, invisible, undetectable ghost in the machine? Wouldn't the burden be on the person who comes up with that idea - to prove it?
More commonly, I've always wondered if wouldn't make more sense if, for example, Bernie Madoff types were forced to work and provide restitution to his victims vs. sitting in jail.
